It sounds like she has a good relationship with her boyfriend. Morality
isn't the sole realm of religion; athiests are frequently more
"moral" in their personal lives than religious people because athiests
do it because it is the right thing to do and religious people only do it
because they're afraid of punishment. Athiests also enjoy the holidays;
nobody ever said that holidays weren't to be enjoyed.
U agree with Angela's advice but I worry about the prospect for conflict
later on down the road and especially once there are children, etc. Will she
feel pressured to give up on her church activity? Will he feel pressured to go
to church even though he does not believe? Marriage has plenty of challenges
without being divided on questions of religion or the lack thereof. I hope the best for them. But I am concerned.
Your advice is well and good for the holiday. I worry about afterwards if
things get serious.
Every one want's the Stamp Of Approval. Since Christmas Isn't about
"ME", It's about The Spirit Of Things. Religion is only what you do
Religiously, Just mind your Manners, and be polite. You'll be fine. I
wish you a merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Which matters the most to you....this person and his family (whom you have never
met) or your desire to live your religion fully and receive the blessings of the
Temple for you and your future children? Please keep your eyes wide open.
Since the family involved no doubt loves their son there may be no major issues
and you may be accepted by them. Down the road, however, may be a different
story. The most important question is how will he deal with your desires?
Don't expect him to change after you're married just because you love
each other and you want him to be more like you. You are the only one that can
weigh the parameters and decide if this is what you want and what the Lord would
have you do.
RE RanchYour statement that "religious people only do it because
they're afraid of punishment" is not true of most of religious people I
closely associate with. We look at the commandments of God as advice from a
loving Father who wants us to live as He lives that we can enjoy ultimate peace,
joy, and prosperity (and by prosperity I don't mean $$$).
Ranch: No stereotyping or prejudging for you, is there?The GF: In
Lehi's Vision of the Tree of Life, he arrives safely at the tree. Once
there, he beckons for his family to join him. Some do, some don't. But the
key is that he never leaves the tree.You, too, have reached the tree
and tasted the goodness of the fruit. However, the vision records that many who
reached the tree become ashamed and fall away. My advice for you: NEVER leave
the tree.Forget about what they may think of you. If they judge you
harshly, then they are like the people in the great and spacious building.Forget about any pressures or awkwardness.Forget about the
beckoning right now. You are not there to proselyte them. Let you example be the
only preaching you do.There are only three things I suggest you
focus on:- Enjoy yourself- Love the people you are with- NEVER
leave the tree
My advise -- 1. Don't you ever bring it [religion] up, ever.If they want to open a discussion - fine, but let them start, and keep
it on their terms.I can almost guantee the "bad" experiences
his family has had is from holier-than-thou, do-gooders, I'm saving you for
your own good, with our withour your permission, like it or nots.2.
This is not just a one time weekend thing. This will be a wedge you are
going to have to live with 24/7/365, with his family -- and with him down
the road. You need to accept it now, and not dream about
"converting" him later. The fact is -- Later may not ever happen,
and are you willing to settle for that?
Sorry for the poor editing. It should read:"I agree with
Angela's advice . . ."
I agree with Airnaut..If your boyfriend has invited you to spend
Christmas with his family, then this is more than just boyfriend/girlfriend.
Recognize that now.You need to look ahead. There are many decisions
that will have to be made that will weigh heavy on your heart and the hearts of
your family. You will not marry for time and all eternity. You may not have
the opportunity to have your babies blessed, and certainly not by their father,
then there will be baptisms, ordinations, blessings, missions.My
father was not a member. As a small child I couldn't understand why my
mother married him. I loved him so much, but he wasn't there for my
primary talks, baptism, or anything else. He was a kind man. When he passed
away we could hardly wait to go to the temple and seal him to my mother.Think ahead. You and your future family deserve "all the Father
Christmas is a cultural holiday for many people. Just enjoy what their
traditions are. Now. Regarding your relationship with your boyfriend, if you
have it in the back of your mind that this is someone who will eventually join
the church, you could be very wrong. If the two of you become committed enough
to marry, these differences could become real problems later. We
have a child who now believes again, but is married and has a family with
someone who does not and if this child becomes involved again, the marriage will
not survive. This was never to become a problem, our child thought, because at
the time of marriage our child was out of the church.So at the
holiday time, observe and keep an open mind, but don't harbor a fantasy
that a possible life with your boyfriend would change to be more like how you
joe5:And you are not judging? I think Ranch pointed out some Truth;
you did not agree with it and that, frankly, proved what he was saying. Stating
a fact is not "judging"; nor is disagreeing with it either.I
think the young Lady is facing some difficult times in the future and that is
based on what I have seen happen many times in the lives of others. She needs
to look down the road and be prepared for what might happen and pray it
doesn't. But ignoring potential problems will not make them go away; nor
will love alone.Goldminer
I agree with your advice to GF to "stay cool" and give it a chance to
work itself out. However, I cannot let the comment by "Ranch" pass
without comment. The attitude that " athiests (sic) are frequently more
"moral" in their personal lives than religious people because athiests
(sic) do it because it is the right ..." presupposes a life so devoid of
challenges that with a little logical effort we can all just "figure it
out". There are a number of logical traps, that lead us to entertain certain
choices, without understand the devastating consequences, which are only
perceptible to a spiritual point of view. Some examples from the headlines:
accepting or indulging in "Gay" lifestyle and marriage, engaging in
heterosexual sex outside marriage, ignoring the commandment to keep the Sabbath
Day holy, imbibing in alcohol and other additive drugs, failure to pay a full
tithe. ... and so forth.
SouthernmissSo sad that you couldn't accept your father the way
he was and respect his decision to not attend church. Don't you think he
would have if he believed in it? Your mother married him, I assume, because she
loved him. Religion doesn't have to be a deciding factor on whether or not
couples get married. That is a ridiculous notion.
Brahmabull: Your statement shows a complete lack of understanding of religion in
general and LDS doctrine in particular. Regardless of what people believe, the
truth is the truth. If LDS doctrine is correct, even if nobody on earth believes
it, then many will have robbed themselves of eternal blessings despite what they
may have believed in mortality.If you don't believe there is
any truth, or the truth doesn't matter, or that the truth
is that there is nothing after death,then I can understand your
comments.But if you believe (as I do) that our mortality is a
significant part of our eternity, then it makes sense that one would do
everything in his power to learn the truth and build his life around it. In
fact, it would be a ridiculous notion to do anything else.
I think Angela's advise is good. I'd like to add another possibility -
it's a bit pessimistic, but it's best to have your eyes open and be
prepared for it. It's not likely, but there is a chance that the opening
their home might be a way to help "free" the GF from her oppressive
upbringing. I know of a few people who have been in that situation, but I would
think it would be pretty rare. Some things to think about - you say trip,
so I assume this is more than a day. Have you made sleeping arrangements.
It's not uncommon for people today to assume that a couple is sleeping
together and put them in the same room. How about the alcohol situation? It
might be good to check some of these out before you go - that will give you some
indication of what you are in for. Most of these scenarios are unlikely
- they majority of people are good-hearted, great people. But it's good to
@Brahmabullsandy, utSouthernmiss"So sad that
you couldn't accept your father the way he was and respect his decision to
not attend church. Don't you think he would have if he believed in it? Your
mother married him, I assume, because she loved him. Religion doesn't have
to be a deciding factor on whether or not couples get married. That is a
ridiculous notion."Just because you don't believe, you also
therefore don't understand how important a thing it is to latter day saints
to be together as an eternal family. Whether the father accepts the sealing is
another story. Just because the ordinances of salvation has been performed in
the temple doesn't automatically make it binding. He has to accept it of
his own free will on the other side of the veil. No one is forced to receive
the promised blessings against his own free will. That is the beauty of the
Failure to observe is the problem non-believers have. Just because someone fails
to observe the numerous evidences for the existence of God does not mean
millions of other haven't. I am a believer because I can not comprehend
that all I experience in my life, all that I learn and all that I love, has no
meaning! Because if the atheists are right, when we die, the lights go out and
everything ends, forever, and therefore nothing has any meaning! As a believer,
I know that everything I experience, everything I learn and everything and
everyone I love belongs to me, forever! That's the difference!
Notice the number of people concerned about the long term? That should be an
indication to worry. "It's amazing how many gospel principles I see
him living on a daily basis" is a recipe for pain. Everybody is wonderful
while they are dating. One - they are on their best behavior to make good
impression (courting is really just sales), and two - he gets the "halo"
from being the boyfriend - obviously you have strong feelings or you
wouldn't be thinking of making a trip to see his family. What concerns me
about that statement is that down the road you will be disappointed if he
doesn't always live by the standards (that he doesn't share) and
frustration that he's not changing. And from his point of view, the
frustration of being expected to be something he's not. I think
Southernmiss nailed it on the head. How does the prospect of a lifetime as a
part-member family sound?
What do atheists celebrate during Christmas? Maybe this is a way to
see if this is a lifestyle you can live with, but then once we love someone our
judgement tend to be skewed towards making the relationship work and
compromising our values.In the bible it was advised against marrying
outside of one's faith for a reason. Samson being the most famous of
marring outside of his faith that ended in his death.
Don't worry about it. Watch schlocky tv, eat too much, drink some beer.
You'll probably find that they're pretty normal people.
Why would Atheists be celebrating Christmas to begin with? My advice to this
young woman is to RUN not walk away from this man. They will have nothing but
problems if they ever decide to marry- and, it can never work unless one of them
subscribes to the others choice of life style.
Wow, from the first comment on this thread, I don't want to hear any more
whining from the anti-lds on these boards. Pot, meet kettle.
This isn't a question of tolerance or intolerance, it is a matter of
following the teachings of the Savior. The scriptures counsels us: "Be ye
not unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship hath
righteousness with the unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with
darkness? (2 Cor. 6:14)The young man is an atheist, how much
darkness can cover the mind of a person than one who does not believe in the
existence of a divine Creator? And, what will the marriage ceremony be like?Young lady, you need to know that being married to someone and dating
them are two very different things. This is a reality that even those who share
the same beliefs have to face, and sometimes, it doesn't work out.You want this marriage so badly that you are unwilling to face the reality of
what you are about to do, otherwise, you would not have to confide in someone
else about this situation.Heavenly Father leaves it up to us to
decide whom we will marry, but when we make the decision, the consequences are
ours to bear. You should pray fervently about your decision.
joe5Your truth doesn't equal absolute truth. I do understand
LDS doctrine quite well as I was a member for over 30 years. I doubt god is
going to punish the entire %99 of the earth who doesn't believe mormonism
is the absolute truth. We have no idea if we are going to be together as
families after we die or not. Nobody knows that. Yes the LDS church has its own
teachings but we really don't know. People waste so much time hoping and
wishing that we will be together when we die, and hoping and wishing everybody
around them will believe the same as they do. Well if we do get to be together
as families when we die, I know that it won't be based on a sealing
ceremony that we have to get in a temple. As far as I know, the LDS church
doesn't and never will have a monopoly on eternal families - that is, if it
exists it will exist for all. You don't need a ceremony to be together with
your family. I don't think god works in such an odd manner.
The GF-Good advice from Angela. I would also suggest you do not
bring up religion at all -- let them do it and work according their desires.
Just love them and try to establish a sincere friendship. In the
long-term, I also worry like others. It will be very hard to reconcile many
aspects of life if you are LDS and he is atheist. If your relationship becomes
more serious and you begin thinking of marriage, it will become overly
complicated and stressful for both of you. I have some siblings that
grew up in the church, but today can probably be considered atheist for all
intents and purposes. When together for holidays/dinners, conversations about
religious topics don't tend to end well and can become contentious fairly
easily. In the long-term, it will be very difficult for you to live the gospel
faithfully while having a very close relationship to a non-believer. Your boyfriend may be a good person and living some gospel principles, but
remember -- the church is concerned with the fullness of the gospel. As
individuals, we should be striving to live the fullness of the gospel, not parts
It's amazing how many "Gospel principles" overlap with secular
humanism. Like, "Love thy neighbor as thyself."One thing you
will notice, GF, is that the atheists reject only one more god than you do.
Which means hundreds for both of you.If you pay attention,
you'll also notice that the only things needed for a system of morality are
evolutionary intelligence plus the evolutionary traits of empathy, altruism,
cooperative social living, a sense of fairness and a sense of sharing, and the
nurture, protection and education of the live-born young. That will give us the
closest thing to an "absolute morality" we're ever gonna get or
Belief/non-belief in God, membership in a common church or lack thereof, all
that goes with this -- these are deal breakers. And anything "working
around" these barriers are compromises which either move the paradigm of one
or both people in a marriage or leave one or both endlessly/hopelessly
frustrated and secretly desiring the conversion of the other. And yes, falling
in love often leads to this path. The best advice is to follow this early
warning, not going down that path -- to set and follow standards in your life...
having relationships only "develop" with those who can (in this case)
take you to the temple, worship and serve God with you, raise your children to
know the Lord...As to visiting for the holidays, great advice
already given here. Be yourself. Certainly be tolerant and
non-confrontational/self-righteous. But be firm in your testimony as it regards
anything that might come up.Last point -- don't confuse
atheists with agnostics. See my next comment.
Don't be on your best behavior; Be yourself around them. If you marry this
guy you're going to be spending big portions of the rest of your life
around these people. They need to know what they're getting into and so do
you. I broke off a serious relationship after meeting the girl's family
and realizing we didn't get along at all. I loved my wife's family
and felt like I fit in with them perfectly, but after 10 years of marriage even
they can get a little annoying sometimes. If you have to behave around them,
you don't want to be related to them.
Advice from this "atheist" - one who has no belief in any deity:My LDS wife and I have been happily married now for over thirty
years!Based on our experience, The only problems you might run into
will Be grounded in the intolerant attitudes of the believers who engage in
worrisome handwringing and fear mongering about your future together. Their
"fears" about your future are little more than religious prejudice and
superstition stemming from the faulty assumption that you are doing something
wrong by marrying outside of the faith.Hogwash!You
should never be made to feel guilty for following your heart and marrying whom
you love, regardless of religion. Efforts to stir up your imagination with fears
are so much tribalism wagon-circling, trying to defend an insecure religious
bias against rational reality.We do not command love; we obey love,
and that fact has made my marriage to my beautiful, LDS wife rich, sweet, and
Brahmabull: I'm fine with your belief that you can enjoy eternal family
relationships without being sealed by one with authority. Knowing you believe
that, I understand why you don't think religion is an important factor in
relationships.The intent of my comment was not to convert you. It
was to help you understand why religion is important to us.Which of
us is right is a fruitless debate. My belief in the effect of priesthood
sealings won't change what is true any more than your lack of belief in
them will. The truth is the truth regardless what either of us believes.Also, I agree that God is not going to punish anybody who doesn't
believe in Mormonism. Mormon doctrine is unique in that it postulates that all
of God's children (except a very few) will inherit a kingdom of glory. It
will doubtless be like what we imagine heaven to be.Mormon doctrine
is not about punishment so much as reward. We believe God loves his children far
more than human parents can comprehend. Though he desires each of us to receive
every blessing, some will reject the greatest of blessings.
Rather than going home with him for the holidays, the GF should have her father
talk to the young man. Her father should say, "You appear interested in my
daughter. You should know that she and her church basically go together."
The young man should be invited to take the missionary lessons in the family
home. If he agrees, those lessons should take place. Then, sometime before a
commitment to baptism, the young lady should break off communication.....and let
him join - or not - on his own. If he never joins, she should move
on....and certainly never join his family for the holidays.If he does
join, she should reestablish contact but still give his independent testimony a
chance to grow - without her company.She should do this because she loves
him.If she has no father to do this for her, she should think about
how her daughter very likely will not have one either.That all
worked well for me... 49 years ago. My wife appreciates the role that other
young woman's family played in my life. After I joined the LDS Church at
20, I would never have married outside the temple. The GF should not
@joe5, Coach, et al.Where did I say "LDS"? I said the
"religous". My point has been completely borne out by the following
comments advising her to "run" from the young man, or worrying about her
"eternal" future. It's about the FEAR of losing out on your
"eternal reward".Why not just do the right thing because
it's the right thing to do? If you're only doing it because "god
told me to", then you're not sincere.
The hardest thing about dating non members doesn't come till later when you
have married a non member. Right now you are just boyfriend and girlfriend! I
know all to well what its like to marry a non member and the heartache of a
husband who doesn't go to church, to sit in church alone, or with your
children.. you can hope and pray for years that they will come into the fold..
but the question is, "I am meeting my atheist boyfriends family who are also
atheists"! Be who you are, let your light shine and don't hide it under
a bushel. You don't have to talk religion, unless they ask! You never know
if you will end up being the catalyst of saving a whole family and bringing them
to the gospel. Just remember the heartache that may go with it if you marry!
Sometimes the heartache turns into joy, but it can take awhile! But so worth it
if you perservere!
@Cache Valley-ite – “without understand the devastating
consequences, which are only perceptible to a spiritual point of view.”So people are incapable of seeing cause & effect relationships
unless they are religious believers? There are many countries with majority
atheist/agnostic populations who would beg to differ.And if they end
up getting married I suspect whatever conflicts arise on this issue will likely
come from the believing side of the family (as many comments here make clear
– see “Southernmiss” and “Mugabe” et al). Most (non-militant) atheists I know are very accepting of what each
individual needs (beliefs, etc…) to live a happy life, but for some reason
the idea that atheists can be happy, good, moral, etc. seems to terrify many
believers.Perhaps the believers here could help us understand
why…@Shelama and @Scientist – thank you both for your
Ranch,Atheists frequently (more frequently than not, in fact)
disregard the idea of there being a "right" or a "wrong" thing
because in absence of a law-giver, their understanding of right and wrong is
subjective and relative. As a result, the past century is full of examples of
terrible atrocities committed by atheists who thought they were "good
without God" and supplanted their own twisted moral code for God's. An
atheist who believes that something is the "right thing to do" is
clinging to a moral code that he or she inherited from religion, whether he or
she is willing to admit it or not. Meanwhile, while doing things out of
"fear of punishment" may be true of certain religious groups (including
cultural Mormons who lack strong testimonies), religious people who understand
the Gospel do what is right because they know that it is what is best for them
and those around them, and that God only wants what is best for each of us.
As for this girl, she is playing a dangerous game. Either her family will try to
destroy her beliefs or by some miracle she will soften their hearts enough to
accept the Gospel. The former is more likely than the latter. If her goal is
temple marriage, this relationship is a dead end. She is a daughter of god, and
she should not sell herself short by settling for someone who doesn't
believe that, no matter how "good" he may appear to be on the surface.
I see no problem. You have a mind. You can use your critical thinking skills
to consider any information that his family may present. If you're not
afraid to ask questions, answer questions and to go where the facts lead you,
then you will be fine.
For purposes of this article it is important to clarify what atheism is, and why
it very possibly won't apply here. Atheism is A RELIGION -- not the
absence of. Atheists believe there is in fact no God and they believe that as
strongly as others believe there is. And they face the same task. They cannot
prove there is no God to the same standards as those who know God exists can
prove he does. There are in fact few atheists. And there is no compatibility
(extreme tolerance perhaps) between one who knows God exists and one who knows
there is no higher being.There are a lot of agnostics and
ecumentalists who don't know either way, ripe for conversion to either
persuasion, and who at present maintain it doesn't matter what you
believe... lukewarm towards truth or authority. Unlike atheists, their
reaction to believers is to find belief quaint, maybe endearing.Atheists would be closed minded, and some militantly evangelical. Agnostics
are open minded because they "don't know."
@mugabe: you found the very best scripture to quote- yours is, by far, the best
response to this young woman. Life is hard enough when spouses have the same
belief system- and it is doubly hard when they do not share something as
important as religion. It will affect every single area of her life should she
marry into that family. Don't do it!
I am this type of parent. I say you don’t need to plan, and stop worrying.
Just be your true self. In my case, I’m very capable of talking about
religion. Also, I’d never stomp on your religion, ever.
@antodav;Athiests have no corner on the market of being the villans.
1) The crusades.2) Salem Ma.3) Spanish Inquisition.Would you like some more examples?
Brahmabull again the common misconception repeatedly propped up... that no one
"knows" or can know, presumably because you don't know. I KNOW. I
also know that others know.And yes, I also know the difference
between wanting to believe, believing, understanding what others believe, and
knowing... as four different things all which I experience on various things.
There is a God -- I know this.
@antodav – “Atheists… understanding of right and wrong is
subjective and relative.”You’re confusing absolute
morality with objective morality. Absolute morality (true for all time and in
all situations) is something that only exists in the minds of religious
believers – and btw, the only absolute moral edict in the Bible is
“obey God”… the other “laws” are relative as any
Amalekite would (if they still existed) tell you.Objective moral
precepts have been posited throughout history and often by non-theists (e.g.,
Aristotle and the Buddha).And the examples of modern day Sweden,
Japan, Denmark, France, New Zealand, Germany, Norway, Canada, Australia and
others is evidence to the contrary of your entire premise. @Brent
T. Aurora CO – “Atheism is A RELIGIONAtheism is a
religion the same way baldness is a hair color, and claiming it is violates the
logical law of non-contradiction.And we all know what it’s
like to be an atheist with respect to almost every god in history (e.g., Zeus,
Baal, Odin, Krishna, etc…). Modern day atheists simply believe in (see no
evidence for) one less god than you do.
I'm sorry to say this, but I think she is heading down a very painful road.
The chances that it will only lead to unhappiness are very high. Love is NOT
enough. Love does NOT conquer all. You must share the same values or you are
headed for trouble. However, be guided by the spirit. Most
atheists are not that way because they don't believe in God. They are
usually that way because they had a negative experience with religion. It was
shoved down their throat or they went to Catholic school and the nuns were mean
or their mother spend too much time at the church. In order words, they base
their feelings on emotion rather that logic. Many of them just need to have a
good experience and be willing to listen.I wish her well, but
she's got her work cut out for her.
I think a problem we have is that we are assuming her situation. Maybe she has
tried really hard to marry in the temple and nothing is working out. We need to
stop ignoring that its just not working out for many single adults and living a
celibate life isn't something realistic or desirable.As a
single adult, the loneliness and frustration with temple marriage has caused
many years of depression and even a suicide attempt where I came to really
despise my life. I'm doing the best I can and being a Sheri Dew isn't
something that we can all handle well for the next 60 years. I'm trying to
chose my life and if that means I find happiness and love outside of the church
I'm going to take it because my years as a ysa has been horrible.
Several posters have asked, "What do atheists celebrate at
Christmas?"Family. Love. Friendship.
Brent T. Aurora COI am not calling you a liar here. I don't
think anybody knows. Aside from having a visitation from god himself, it
isn't possible. I never said I don't believe in god (I do), I just
don't think he works in the ways that mormons portray him to work. I
don't think he lets families who are sealed live together in heaven while
those who aren't sealed don't get that same benefit. Not the god I
Southernmiss. It sounds like your father allowed you to worship as you wanted
but you are not able to offer the same courtesy in return. This is sad. The
Mormon 11th Article of Faith states: "We claim the privilege of worshiping
Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men
the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." I have
not been able to find an amendment to the Article of Faith "until they are
dead". My own Mormon family has said to me and to my atheist husband "I
can't wait for you to die so I can go to the temple for you." I
don’t think they really mean they would prefer us to be dead. Still, it
is hurtful. More important, it is the height of arrogance and disrespect to
ignore one’s choices and beliefs simply because the person is no longer
around. Perhaps an experience similar to mine is one of those encountered by
The GF’s atheist BF’s parents.
In response to Fani’s query “What do atheists celebrate during
Christmas?” I celebrate family and friends. I love the happiness and joy
that the secular aspects of Christmas offers—for example, the Christmas
Tree, Santa Claus, Lights on every house on our street, music that we only hear
during December. I love finding that perfect gift and making the recipient feel
so special that they believe their gift is my “splurge gift” this
year – even though I wrapped over 300 gifts this year (mostly one gift per
person). I love that my small nieces and nephews squeal with delight when I ask
them to help me decorate by putting snow on my Christmas Village (even the
messiness of fake snow being tracked all over my house). I have much to be
thankful for. The basic message is to celebrate the act of giving, doing kind
things for others, reconnecting with friends and family. I basically do
everything you do—except (I suspect) you don’t put rum in your egg.
There are atheists and there are Atheists. Most atheists think spirituality and
belief or non-belief in a God is a personal choice and don't want to
interfere with other people's choices. On the other hand, Atheists
actively seek to destroy religion and spirituality and replace it with some
other "Godless" religion. For example, and atheist will have a
Christmas Tree and a Nativity set as part of their Christmas celebration. An
Atheist will not have any holiday celebration in protest of Christianity.
There is a big difference. As an atheist, I welcome one and all to my home, if
my guest wants to pray over their meal, then I'll join them, if they ask me
to say a prayer, I will do it out of respect for them and their beliefs. It
sounds like the boyfriend and his family are of the lower-case type, I think
that she will be just fine. My LDS family members welcome me, and I welcome
them. I'd be more wary of an Evangelical Christian or a Neo-Fascist than
Southernmiss:I think it's very sad that you were raised to believe
there was something wrong with your family. This is one of the main reasons why
I made the decision to leave the LDS church before my first child was born.
(That and the fact that I no longer believed it was true.) My atheist husband
was find with my belief system, but hardly anybody in my church could handle
his. I didn't want my kids raised to believe their family was flawed.We're getting a divorce 13 years later, but I will always consider
myself an atheist. It suits me better than organized religion ever could.
Angela, your advice was perfect. His family is just a family. I
have a good friend who is an atheist and is married to a committed Lutheran.
Their marriage works, even if it is a little more complicated than a marriage
between two people with the same beliefs. Mutual respect and love go a long
way.He and I have great conversations about religion, philosophy and
ethics, by the way. He doesn't mind hearing about what I believe and I
don't mind hearing about what he believes. Since we both believe in
accepting truth and in doing good, there is a lot of overlap in our beliefs.
I'm sure it is the same with this young couple and is likely to be the same
with her and her family.
By the time we got through this, you are off to them already.But I was
very impressed by the balanced statement Angela made, be such a balanced girl
and all will go well.Your meeting of his family could be the sole
purpose of building your entire future.They want to see that you can pass
a test, and be as honest and kind as he predicted.Not him, not his family
will ever join you in your religious believes, if you are too
"religious".Focus on keeping the commandments, they will
test you on it.But your main focus must be, that everything you have
learned is personal.Your feelings are personal, your faith is personal,
your boyfriend is personal.Now his family will be personal for you.That way he will always feel of a need to understand the purpose of the
church in the long run, it will become personal for him as well, because you so
frankly lived it a very personal way.
Having a testimony and knowing the past I went through to fight a war among
relatives,I do not understand some of the above comments to be helpfull at
all.Each one of us has individual pace to meet god, but I would
never advice a member of the LDS church to do otherwise, never try to put her
into harms way. Sorry. I just disagree.
@ Tyler..Atheism could be viewed a religion in a sense. Not all
metaphors work perfectly and yours doesn't work here in a sense. For
example, their are atheistic churches now and atheistic preachers. So, to some
it is a religion. But what makes it a religion at least at some level is this.
Most atheists make claims about things such as God, death, why we are here (the
claims could be "there is no God", "for whatever reason we
chose", "nothing, we go in the grave and become food for worms")
and they do so based on assumptions that are identical to the assumptions that
religious people make because both sets of assumptions are unprovable and based
on faith. Certainly though there are many aspects of organized religion that
are NOT aspects of atheists lives usually.
Thid Barker:I was raised LDS and now consider myself agnostic.
Trust me, my life has plenty of meaning. The difference now is that I get to
discover it for myself instead of having it dictated to me.jimhale:Or maybe her father could accept that she's an adult
and trust her to make her own decision. The Church really loves to infantilize
people, doesn't it?
@Michael Matthews – “Atheism could be viewed a religion in a
sense.”Perhaps – if someone claims to know what happens
after we die or to know there is no God (and I use the term extremely loosely
– could be like The Force) then yes, there is an element of faith there,
but it is mostly of the negative variety – seeing no evidence for things
and then deriving conclusions from that lack of evidence.That is a
far cry from the faith of a religious believer who believes a host of positive
things based on little or no evidence – apples and bicycles.But most atheists do not make such (Dawkins-like) claims – they simply
do not see evidence for all the positive claims the religious believer is
making. So in that most common sense, it is most certainly NOT faith.And the whole “churches” thing is for purely political
reasons… nothing more.
.(Psalm 14:1).The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God
@Michael Matthews – “Atheism could be viewed a religion in a
sense.” Continued…So in the common way most
people claim to be atheists, saying it is a faith claim is actually
nonsensical.Think about it this way – if I claim that unicorns
exist and you doubt my claim, is your doubt predicated in any way on you having
faith? If so, faith in what? Or this - what if I were to tell you
all about my devotion to Zeus, the supreme god of gods and creator of all. And
on top of that, what if I were then to go on with an entire narrative about Zeus
and all the things he’s done and how he has made himself known to mankind,
and what we can do to earn his favor.Would your skepticism towards
me be a matter of faith on your part? If so, faith in what… non-Zeus?For most atheists, this is exactly how they relate to the God of
Abraham. It’s not faith, but in fact the opposite of faith.It’s incredulity in the presence of someone else’s
As a convert from atheism, CS Lewis has always been a guidepost. Reading
Lewis' Mere Christianity may help. Intellectually honest people who do not
believe in God are agnostics, not atheists. Those who claim atheism have not
proven the null hypothesis that God does not exist.
Such a massive philosophical difference portends massive ill consequences in
marriage. When the children come along everything changes.
I don't see his family as the problem. They're not going to be the
ones teaching your children their values, nor are they the ones that are going
to be asking you why you have to go to church every Sunday. Nor will they be
the ones that refuse to read the scriptures, or to say family prayer, or hold
Family Home Evening. They will not be the ones that are unable to give a
Priesthood blessing, nor get sealed in the temple as a family.If
none of these things are important to you, then you'll probably be OK. On
the other hand, if they are important, you will have a continual battle between
your values and your husband, and be forced to make compromises to save your
marriage, or abandon your values or your marriage altogether.
@Mugabe"The young man is an atheist, how much darkness can cover the
mind of a person than one who does not believe in the existence of a divine
Creator?"New Hampshire is the state with the highest percentage
of atheists and the least crime. Looking at all 50 states there's basically
no correlation so I'd say no more darkness than any other person on
average."And, what will the marriage ceremony be like?"Pretty similar to any other wedding actually. @Brent T.
Aurora CO"these are deal breakers."I think she can
choose for herself what she considers a dealbreaker...@jimhale"Her father should say, "You appear interested in my daughter. You
should know that she and her church basically go together." The young man
should be invited to take the missionary lessons in the family home. If he
agrees, those lessons should take place. ...If he never joins, she should
move on"Okay... I was going to criticize this as 19th century
control of young women then I realized you might apply this to all
children..."she should think about how her daughter very likely
will not have one either."Nope, just girls.
As long as they behave, should be no problem. My favorite comebacks to an
atheist, who like to critize religion. How long have you've been a member
of the athiest religion, yes they are organized against God. What are your
feelings belonging to a religion that is responsible for the deaths of 100
million in the 20th century alone, primarily Stalin and Mao, and host of other
athiest rulers who followed that pattern. That normally gets them rattled.
I've had better experiences, felt more love and compassion from my
"atheist" friends, than I have ever had from most of my
"Mormon" friends.That should be telling...
Comment was off topic or disruptive.Is the word Gentiles disruptive, or
101 class mormons ?Ok, I am sorry if so, but I see a lot of comments
in here that got through, but they are worse anything I have heard before !Here the rev. text :There is a god in heaven, knowing all things,
before we even think of marriage.He got his children on earth in a very
difficult live situation, to manage upon prayer and a watchful eye.Please, Atheists ...whatever you want to call them, they are not that in the
eyes of god. Some of these comments in here want to save church, but do not save
relations.What it is like to be in love with someone ? If he loves his
girl, he wants to know. Parents want to know.They will know along the road.With all that strong counseling on "keep out, get going, move
on", there is much damage you do to any eternal perspective the Lord might
have in mind.Some of you people, should not have been in the garden
of Eden, disrupting the fall, so I could come to earth.
@FT1/SS"My favorite comebacks to an atheist, who like to critize
religion. How long have you've been a member of the athiest religion, yes
they are organized against God. What are your feelings belonging to a religion
that is responsible for the deaths of 100 million in the 20th century alone,
primarily Stalin and Mao, and host of other athiest rulers who followed that
pattern. That normally gets them rattled."If your goal is to
advise the letter writer to antagonise the family and make them hate her,
you're doing a fantastic job of providing advice for that.
If you go to meet the folks, just step in and do the dishes, that's always
a good first impression. Play it by ear from there.
My LDS wife and I have raised four children with no problems from my being
atheist and her being temple Mormon. We both agreed to allow the children to
choose what they wanted regarding religion. Many if them chose to go to the
Mormon Ward with my wife for a while. Two got baptized, but one has since
abandoned Mormonism. We love our children and respect their decisions.Do you mean to tell me Mormon couples don't always treat their children
with such dignity and respect, and instead try to coerce, guilt and pressure
them into the Church?Gasp!
She should be more concerned about her boyfriend dealing with her LDS family
than her dealing with his atheist family. Contrary to what many
believe...atheists are some of most accepting people around. My husband who was
raised in the LDS Church but left before I met him. We both are atheists. His
LDS family never even temporarily suspended one religious action for our benefit
during any time we visited including Christmas. Our discomfort was of no concern
to them. Their only concern was to get their adult child back in the Church
because not doing so affected their place in heaven. We didn't matter. We
could never be ourselves in their LDS home because of their holier-than-thou
attitudes prohibitive attitudes. That's fine since...it's their home.
But..they wondered why we rarely invited them to our home. We didn't
because...they would expect us to accommodate their beliefs in our home even
though they would never accommodate ours. Peaceful coexistence is a two-way