Americanvet: I just want to say I really enjoy debating this topic with you (as
we've now done a few times). You are courteous and provide well-considered
ideas. Thank you.My heart tells me to hope as you hope and so I
will. My mind tells me this path actually reduces our chances of creating a
championship team. It's like a football player who goes backward to avoid
being tackled. Once in a while, he finds a seam and breaks through for a gain
but the vast majority of the time he loses additional yardage. I've just
never seen the percentage of giving up ground you have gained.
@joe 5Regarding your "pipe dream" post:You ask valid
questions about draft prospects panning out, staying healthy, resigning at the
end of their rookie deals etc. Winning championships takes a lot of things
working out and and coming together and that is true for every team. We all
recognize that odds for all those things working out are even lower for small
market teams like the Jazz. But we can't change the fact we are a small
market team so we have to just have a plan and hope a lot of things work out. I
don't think Oklahoma City or even Portland are much more attractive
destinations for players to go to and those teams seem on the cusp of greatness.
Portland is a team that has made great stride since adding Lillard to the team
and maybe Trey can have a similar impact here, especially if we add some more
pieces. The only time the Jazz have been great is when they built through the
draft and once the team was good it was easier to add free agents like Horny.
Hopefully we can repeat that process again.
@joe5You are one that does your homework:)My main thought with
my previous post was that probably every NBA champion for the last couple of
decades was anchored by a super star maybe with the exception of the Pistons.
These teams as you described made changes to their lineups and in some cases
took several seasons before winning a title. A lot of fans like me are hoping
that we have some important pieces already that just need more experience and
then adding a Parker or Wiggins or maybe Randle will elevate the team to a
higher level. Both Burks and Burke are showing signs of some real talent. Favors
really seems to be getting more dependable and if not a star at least an
important piece to the puzzle. I'm not as sure about Hayward and Kanter.
Both can look great at times but maybe more playing time will help them with
consistency. I like Gobert with more playing time and we should have access to
Raul Neto next year who seems like a nice compliment to Burke. If one of next
years rookies pan out I see the Jazz on a real upswing.
By the way, after repeatedly asking, I am still waiting for one example of a
championship team built using the strategy proposed in this article.
MIC: Evidently you haven't followed my comments since the Jazz sold out
their fans this past summer. I have consistently claimed the Jazz cannot lure
top free agents here to Utah no matter how much cap room they have. The Jazz
must be smarter than other teams by playing "moneyball" and targeting
undervalued players.Let's assume this article is prophetic and
the Jazz sign all these kids to these nice contracts. Let's suppose that
2016-2017 is Nirvana and before or after don't count.- What are the
chances every draft pick between now and then is going to be a winner?-
What are the chances nobody gets injured?- What are the chances every
young guy will have matured to their full potential simultaneously?- What
are the chances they will all reject free agency to stay with the Jazz?-
What are the chances other teams will stand pat waiting for the Jazz to
improve?- What are the chances Jazz players suddenly know how to win close
games when they've just completed three years in a culture where winning
doesn't matter (and is even discouraged by many)?Can you say
Joe5. You keep talking like the Jazz can lure free agents the way
the Lakers or Knicks can. The Jazz will never get a superstar in free agency.
Never. No matter how good they might be. The Only way for them to get a
superstar is in the draft. If you don't have a superstar, IT'S ALL FOR
NOTHING. Sure Chicago, Houston, LA, Boston, and Miami all did good in free
agency but they had a franchise cornerstone that they built around. You are
wanting the Jazz to skip that step and just play the free agency game and doing
no better than the 8th or 7th seed.
Like the article said: "By no means is the Jazz’s rebuilding plan a
safe bet to lead them to title contention."There is no perfect
solution. The thing you know is that you need a superstar player to win it all.
Maybe Trey Burke can be that player, but if you look at the past it is normally
not a superstar point guard that wins championships (unless they are huge like
Magic Johnson).I don't think any other player on the team right
now has the potential to be the #1 player on a title team.The draft
is the best bet for Utah - not free agency.
Americanvet:- Magic: Lakers won 47 wins the year before he was
drafted. Jabbar and Wilkes were both acquired by trade.- Bird: Won
his first title after the Celtics traded draft picks to acquire Parrish.- MJ: Won in his 7th season. Nobody was left on the team from the year
he was drafted. Five players on their 1991 roster were acquired by trade
including Bill Cartwright and John Paxson. (Scottie Pippen was also acquired
through a draft day trade but we won't count that one.) He was also on his
4th head coach.- Kobe was drafted at #13 (not top-3) by Charlotte
and traded to LA on draft night. Won his first title in 2000 (4th season). Ten
players on that roster were acquired by trade or FA including Shaq, Horry, Fox,
Salley, Rice, Shaw, AC Green, and Devean George.Similar story for
Dirk, KG, and LBJ. None of these players (or their drafting teams) ever won a
title following the current Jazz plan or the plan in this article.
It's all about the Jazz needing to lose so that we have chance at picking
up Jabari Parker. PG Burke SG HaywardSF ParkerPF
@joe5"can anyone show me a team that took this road to a
championship?"What we have all been talking about, and is
discussed in the news article is the Jazz taking a step back to develop their
young players and end up with a high lottery pick in next years draft. All the
experts are so high on next years draft and the potential for a future superstar
seems high. So if your asking to show you a team that has drafted a high lottery
pick that turned into a superstar and led the team to a championship, my
question is show me a team that hasn't followed this road to a
championship. Magic, Bird, MJ, Kobe, Nowinski, KG, Lebron, etc. These were all
very high draft picks that led their teams to championship(s) with the exception
of Lebron that led a team after he became a free agent. But the fact remains
that these teams have dominated championships in the NBA for years and they all
had a superstar they drafted. That is part of the plan, beyond developing the
young talent already on the team
Can anyone show me another team that took this road to a championship?
@steve-oWell you partly agree with Joe5 and I partly agree with you.
You're right about 2nd and 3rd tier free agents and the need to build
through the draft in Utah. I concur completely and that should be a big part of
the plan as this article has stated. I disagree with you (and Joe5) about this
culture of losing nonsense. You say the Jazz have been pretty bleak since the
Stocton and Malone days. Not really. We have been to the playoffs 5 times
including a trip to the western conference finals with D-Will and Boozer. You
can look aroind the league and find better examples of "bleak".
However, we did fall into mediocre with Jefferson and Millsap and we needed a
big shakeup to get out from under that rock. That's what we are doing now,
but as the article states everyone needs to give the team some time to re-load.
Steve-o: I agree with you that our situation is different than that of the big
market teams. But OKC doesn't have a championship and I think their window
is closing, not opening. The Jazz glory days came were built on two players the
Jazz drafted but a decade later when they had become stars and knew how to win.
Championship teams win with experienced veterans, not hot-shot rookies,
regardless how talented they are.
Joe5 --- I agree partly with your comments. You don't want a culture of
losing, which the Jazz have already established pretty well since the Stockton
and Malone days. Overall things have been bleak since then. BUT... you do have
to build through the draft in Utah. This isn't Miami, New York, LA,
Chicago. Star players don't choose to play in Utah. We get the Boozers,
Okurs, Al Jeffersons, Mo Williams! 2nd and 3rd tier free agent won't win a
championship. The Jazz will HAVE to draft a star because we're not getting
a guy like that any other way. Our model will be similar to OKC in the small
market.Also, the Lakers drafted Kobe, The Heat drafted Wade, the Celtics
drafted Paul Pierce, The Spurs drafted Tim duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili.
ALL the teams that won championships over the past 15 years drafted a star.
Draft is important. Jazz will never crawl out of Sacramento mode unless they
get a star through the draft. This is the year to be bad if there ever was one.
We need that Tim Duncan, Durrant type guy to turn the franchise around.
Lose today in order to win later. This is the goal of the Jazz in 2013-2014.
They must lose as many games as possible in order to get the best draft pick
possible. Any other objective would be a wasted effort. If the Jazz start
playing better now that Burke is back and playing well, then they have failed in
this goal. Please lose this season, don't be tempted to win this year, the
more they win this year the more we lose in the future.
I can't understand how many Jazz fans believe this. The whole premise is
flawed.1) A culture of winning is important. 3-4 years where winning
doesn't matter puts us in Kings territory, not Spurs. I think it is more
important to put players in a position to succeed rather than teaching them how
to fail. The important thing is to get them EFFECTIVE minutes; quality, not
quantity, is the key. "Minutes for the sake of minutes, regardless of the
outcome" reflects lazy journalism.2) The premise that the only
way to win championships is through the draft is wrong. It is especially wrong
when people believe it happens quickly. The way to win championships is with
veterans. I'll stand by for a list of championship teams built completely
through the draft.3) Draft winners are part luck. The year before
Boston got the Big 3, they expected the #1 pick and were focused on Oden. They
dropped to fourth in the draft and missed out on Durant as well. No guarantees
in the draft. And seriously, if they got Oden or Durant, do you really think
they would have done the trade and won a championship? No way.
With the attitude that it is all about 2016-2017, then the Jazz should just take
a dive for the rest of this season and next, collect the next 2 drafts #1 picks
and wait for winning.That ain't gonna fly to the fans nor will
that fly for the Millers owning an NBA team.
Funny how everyone else in the world sees this except Ty Corbin. Can someone
give him this article?
I appreciate your insight! It's so discouraging watch them lose over and
over -- so I honestly don't watch anymore! I hope you're right! I
think the Jazz need to hire you on as a consultant!!!!
The only issue I have with this article is the idea that Gobert going to the
D-league is a bad idea. I think it is great because there he will get
significant minutes that will help him develop. Let him play 35 minutes a night
for a season and then bring him back into the fold next season with all that
playing time in hand. Other than that I totally agree. John Lucas should never
see the floor (even before Burke got back that is a wise decision). The other
vets should play limited time just to rest the younger players.
I'm all in for playing the core five big minutes this years. I hope they
start Kanter so that he can develop and to see if he is worth a big contract or
not. I do believe that as long as the core five is healthy throughout the season
that the Jazz will win 30 to 35 games this year. I think this is an exciting
time to watch the core five develop as a team, and in a couple of years from now
become like the Portland Trailblazers and later be a veteran team like San
Antonio. I think management is going in the right direction and that Corbin
needs to give the core five the minutes they will need to develop.
This article is spot on and states what many of us have been saying all year.
Some people are critical of us that are willing to see the team struggle and
lose games this year so that we can be in a position to snag that lottery pick
(or 2) in the upcoming draft. This year should be all about team development and
building for the future. Who cares if we have the worst record in the league
this year if it's what it takes to build for the future. This article
should be required reading for Jazz management and Jazz nation in entirety.
I was one of the people last year rooting hard for the kids to play more, and
with Burks playing more recently, they are. Kanter has had a bum ankle, but he
is on the court more now, too. Saying that no one cares about winning is
absolutely wrong. One of the reasons many that pro players are pros is that is
their goal EVERY time they step on the court. As for fans, most of us get turned
off by a team if they don't compete at least through the first three
quarters. The Jazz have competed well in most games, but it has definitely
helped to have Marvin Williams in there when he is healthy. Richard Jefferson
has had some good games, too. Having at least one veteran on the court is a good
idea, especially early and in the middle of the game. Having the core five
finish games would please me, though, unless someone if hanging their head out
of frustration or has 5 fouls. Gobert to the D-League is a good idea...he had a
good game the other night, too. Go, Rudy!
Great point. I've defended Corbin far too long. Given him the benefit of
the doubt since he became a head coach. It's really high time he becomes
accountable. This year, not through wins and losses but how improvement happens.
If by the end of the season Lindsay doesn't see that, I hope he has the
guts to send Corbin packing.
If this article is close to the truth, Jazz fans should lynch the front office
tonight. If the Jazz are playing for the future then playing the vets is stupid.
Jazz should get in the Houston trade sweepstakes and get the Turk, Asian,
Parsons and 7 feet 1 inch power forward.
Hit the nail on the head. The only reason I could see the older vetzz getting
minutes is to showcase them for a trade before the deadline to pick up more
pieces.. How about my man Burks against LBJ and crew??
Sending Gobert to the D-League is a mistake. Rudy has already proven he's
okay as backup to Kanter and Favors. Biedrins should not be getting any playing
time ahead of Rudy. Sure Gobert is raw, but he's improving fast and will
learn a lot more playing 15 minutes a game within the Jazz organization than he
will playing 30 for Bakersfield.
The Jazz need to win or lose with players who will be here next season and
beyond. The current season (and next) should be all about player development
first - not winning games.I realize losing is a tough pill to
swallow, but often that is exactly how the patient (in this case the Jazz) will
get better. Playing veterans who will not be here next season does nothing for
the Jazz; all it does is showcase them for their next team. Is that what the
Jazz should be doing? I don't think so.Nate Gagnon's
sports article hit the nail right on the head. I hope Jazz management is
If we aren't going to be good for three years, I guess I won't attend
anymore games until then.
@Iowa Jazz Fan 2I am thinking you must actually be Tyrone Corbin or
some other in the Jazz organization. If the D-League was the best place for
Gobert to develop then why is he only being sent there now? What are the chances
this D-League team will have the same team dynamic and strategies as the Jazz? I
think if the Jazz are planning to send Corbin away then maybe this D-League move
is a good move since then all players will have to learn a new style anyway. But
I think more likely this is a bad move and shows the Jazz organization is not
all on the same page.
Sending Gobert to the D-League is an example of the Jazz getting in their own
way??? How about it being an example of their seeing enough potential in him
and caring enough about his development that they want him to play major minutes
every night and get major tutoring instead of sitting on the end of the bench
90% of the time?
Honestly I'd rather see Gobert get 30+ minutes a night in the D-League than
15 minutes or less in with the Jazz. The kid is raw and needs time on the court
to develop, I think the D-League will be good for his development and