Patriot…. was it socialism when Bush took away our right to buy medication
from cheaper countries, and passed the new add on to medicare for drugs?Was it socialism when Reagan passed a law requiring all hospitals to
admit and stabilize all patients, regardless of the patients ability to pay?At what point is it socialism…. government interfering in free
markets such as crop subsidies and tax credits to energy companies…. and
when is it business as usual? Is it only socialism when a democrat is in
office?I see this "socialist" term thrown around so much.
Was it socialism when the government handed out free land with the various
homestead acts? What is that line between socialism… and what ever else
it is you think the other party is practicing?
If taking from those who produce and giving it to those who don't
isn't the definition of socialism, then what is it?
...Nor do leftists appear to have any idea how this is going to be paid for.
They have just voted themselves money from the treasury and they don't care
who foots the bill.
remember this ...we voted for this trickery and socialism twice in 2009 and
again 2012 so how stupid are we? Obama is nothing more than a product of a
nation that has lost its way.
Just collapse it by refusing to become enrolled.
LDS Liberal."GW Bush used "trickery" to start 2 wars in
the Middle East, causing hundreds of thousands of deaths, and spending $3
Trillion he didn't fund.Where were you conservatives
then?"I don't know about everybody else, But I was hating
Bush the same way I am hating Obama. He knocked down the towers to start that
Sorry, I meant the employer mandate.
Why are they delaying the individual mandate until after the 2014 elections?
Obama doesn't seem to have a lot of faith in this law.
I don't believe that. And we have had a type of what you would call
"socialized medicine" since 1965 when Medicare was introduced. I
don't think that people would want us to do away with this anytime soon.
All of us have a parent, grandparent or friend that gets their healthcare
through Medicare. This new healthcare law is not exactly like Medicare. These
are regular plans from regular companies like Select Health put together for
people that don't have insurance so they can get it. I am very happy to
have it after years of going without. People should study up before they make
GW Bush used "trickery" to start 2 wars in the Middle East, causing
hundreds of thousands of deaths, and spending $3 Trillion he didn't
fund.Where were you conservatives then?
To "Onion Daze" for some of those countries, their low unemployment rate
can be explained by their low birth rate.For example, Denmark has a
birthrate of 1.75, and they have an average family size of 2.1. In other words,
they are barely above replacement of the people as they die. Switzerland has an
even lower birthrate with 1.4 births per woman, and an average family size of
2.2. However, they also have a high rate of emigration, which means that
surplus workers leave.Don't just look at the statistics of
unemployment rate, you also have to look at the population and see what is going
on there.To "pragmatistferlife" it is a good thing you were
not around during the Civil War, or Women's Suffrage movement, or the Civil
Rights movements. There have been all sorts of laws that were passed at one
time that have been overturned and made this nation better. Obamacare should be
overturned so that we can lower insurance costs, and improve the health
insurance industry.To "one vote" that is why I prefer to
call Obamacare Fascist. The government still controls the companies, but the
companies are not owned by the government.
Thid Barker. I can imagine what it is to have been lied to by Republican
lawmakers. Look at our own Senator Mike Lee who defiled our country and cost us
all billions. I also remember a war that we entered into with lies and
mistruths from a Republican administration, that cost us thousands of lives. .
It isn't about Republican or democrats lying. They both do. It is about our
health care system copied from Mitt Romney's program in Massachusetts that
is attempting to get coverage for millions of American families that have no
coverage. Question Thid? Have the GOP proposed anything to help with this
crisis? Anything except Fox News? I am hearing of thousands of people finally
being able to get health care and the Private Insurance Companies are not
unhappy. What is your solution other than calling names? PS. I require
accountability from all parties. The GOP has been the one most in the spotlight
for its terrible handling of the recent Government shutdown. And they are
trying to get away from that by changing their ways.....as fast as their little
ideals will let them!
Utefan. Imagine what your mother and the Demos would be saying if it had been
the GOP that hatched this mess and if a Republican President had lied and said,
"If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep it, period." Shame on
conservatives for requiring accountability and honesty from a Democrat! How dare
they? Only Republican politician should be held accountable, Democrats, never!
"Like most compassionate liberals though you understand that to make an
omelette you have to crack some eggs right??Actually, I guess, yes.
Any change, conservative, liberal, or non-partisan based is a change from
something known to something new, and will take doing things in new ways, that
we know some have problems with. Just like when a sports venue gets upgraded.
Some of the seats get cancelled, and moved to new sections. Some of the cheap
seats are being eliminated and replaced with cheap seats elsewhere.The funny thing here is Obama changed his mind, told people that if who sold
these people their tickets would allow, these people could still have their
cheap seats for a while longer. If the people are now loosing their cheap
seats/plans, it not because of Obama anymore, but the insurers themselves.
There is no federal law or rule at this time causing these cancelations.Meanwhile the rest of us are I guess already in our seats, waiting for
the kickoff. A few with new tickets are filtering into the stadium... should be
The rants and raves that the Deseret News publishes from a few select people
(that we all know by name) is getting to be a study in negativity. The Deseret
News will publish letters from those people who call their adversaries all sorts
of names, such as liars, deceitful, dishonest. They call our duly elected
President names that are inappropriate. But when we tell those same people that
they are not informed and we are frankly sick of their whining and frankly
lying, the Deseret News won't publish our letters. Get a clue! People
really are getting sick of those same few people ranting and raving. I'd
like to see them offer solutions! The Deseret News,(which I pay a subscription
to) ought to be more open to a more middle of the road approach. My Mother
recently said, if it was called Romney Care and Mitt was in the White House the
exact same "Obama care program" would be heralded as superior!
Not sure we're GeForce came from that should read "waiting for
Still waiting GeForce ANYONE to respond to GZE and show this letter is anything
other then empty rhetoric .
We'll see. I've got a standing wager: by 2016, the ACA will be
working so well, and will be so popular, that it will not be a Republican issue
in the Presidential campaign. Takers?
@UtahBlueDevil- Au Contraire mon frere- the "game" has begun. If you
were one of the millions of Americans who received a cancellation from their
insurance company and lost the policy that you were happy with then the plan has
started for them. Like most compassionate liberals though you understand that to
make an omelette you have to crack some eggs right?
When are we going to stop calling the ACA socialism?! We do not have the
"socialized" medicine of Canada or European nations. That would be a
single payer system, which was rejected. Even the "public option"
(having both private and government health insurance options) was scuttled. The
mandate is through PRIVATE insurance companies, was originated by conservatives
(the Heritage Foundation) as an alternative to socialized medicine and was a
COMPROMISE. Please, for the sake of our sanity, quit calling it a government
takeover of health care.
Lets see, the plan still isn't in force yet…. and we have already
decided how its going to end. If this was a football game, the
author would be the dude in the parking lot complaining that he knew the game
was going to be a bust because there is a line to get into the parking lot. We
haven't even had the kickoff yet… and the author has decided the
final score of the game.I think I am going to spend more time with
sports than politics going forward. At least there the people on both sides
know their arguments are totally subjective. Here, people actually believe
their own silly arguments. We had more than a few proclaim Obama wasn't
going to get re-elected… and now we are going to listen to them on their
predictions for the US health care system. Laughable in the least.Lets get the game started - then start pontificating the outcome. Until,
complaints about the traffic jam trying to get to the game are fully
justified… but it isn't the game by any measure.
Wah, wah, wah. It's too bad that someone has attempted to assist your
neighbor to be able to afford insurance (a scam in it's own right) to pay
for their healthcare. For the first time in 40 years the cost of healthcare over
all has leveled off since the law was passed and as near as I can tell
that's good for you too. If your neighbor doesn't declare bankruptcy
it's good for yours. If your neighbor doesn't go the ER for
healthcare it's good for you because it's you paying for it. I for one
favor HR676. Medicare for all. A single payer system that has worked an is
popular. It's administered for 3% compared to 33% on average. But not to
worry, as Americans we can't figure out how to do what's good for us
all like what works well in the rest of the industrialized world. We like paying
double the price because it makes us feel exceptional.
Irony Guy said:"ACA works well for my family. Grown kids now
have affordable insurance of their own they couldn't get before, and it was
far easier to get it. My own coverage is unchanged. Things look good from
here."Do you receive your current health insurance from your
employer? If you do, this will be going bye bye in 2014. Obama has delayed the
employer mandate portion until after the 2014 mid-terms. Hmm, now why would
that be? Sadly, it will be the young and healthy in our society
who will be tasked (ordered) to pay for the brunt of Obamacare. These young
people (after the age of 26) are just discovering that not only will they have
to purchase health insurance or pay a fine, but will indeed be eating the cost
for this disaster for their entire future. Any wonder that Obama is losing
support from young voters. These young college age kids ate up the ideas of
socialism, collectivism, and wealth redistribution they heard from their leftist
college professors. Funny how things change when they become victims of these
destructive ideas."If you like your current health insurance you
can keep it..." Pfft!
I agree with Art in spirit but disagree that Obamacare ushers in Socialism in
healthcare because we already essentially had/have socialized healthcare. Well
over half of all healthcare spending prior to the ACA was Medicare, Medicaid,
SCHIP etc. The fact is Americans were about 10% free before ACA and Dodd-Frank
were passed. Now we're about 5% free. Yes, we're free to ogle
pornography if we choose, free to abort unborn babies and free to rip crosses
off war memorials but not free in any true sense of the word. If you
aren't free to make your own healthcare arrangements without the approval
of an unelected bureaucrat at HHS then you are a serf. If you aren't
allowed to buy a home (with cash) without the approval of an unelected
bureaucrat at HUD then you are a serf. It's scary how comfortable the
American left is with this. And I won't even get into how the IRS-
the most feared government agency in America (and Obama's private attack
dog apparently) is tied in with the ACA
pragmatistferlife said:"Oh my word give it a break. It's
the law, it's under way, and your ideological rants about socialism and
communism are just....I'll get bounced for saying it."Hmmm,
if this law is "under way" as you say, how come Obama has delayed the
"employer mandate" provision in Obamacare until just after the 2014
mid-terms? Let me help you: the amount of people who will lose their insurance
through their employer in order to comply with Obamacare is going to be
staggering. Obama and the Dems know if they were to let the employer mandate
get "under way" as you suggest, they would take unimaginable loses in
the mid-term elections.It's amazing that Obama can lie to your
face, and you willingly support his destruction of our healthcare system. And
we thought the individual mandate was bad? Just wait until 2014. Funny you
Leftists never address the delay in the employer mandate.
"It has been through deceit and trickery that the new health care law
(Obamacare) was implemented."That's what politicians do...
they promise stuff to get elected then they do their own thing.
Insurance companies were dropping and denying people coverage pre ACA--where was
the Republican outrage then? How much of the current change in policies
is due directly to ACA and how much is due to routine insurance companies trying
to push people into more profitable plans? I understood
Obama's statement about keeping your plan meant people who were covered by
employers and/or who didn't have junk/plans. "In his book
The Audacity of Hope , published in October 2006 when he was a U.S. senator,
Obama described single-payer as the hope of the left, while those on the right
wanted a market-based approach. "It's time we broke this impasse by
acknowledging a few simple truths," Obama wrote, suggesting a system much
like the one he supports today.At his town halls as president, he
routinely answers questions about single-payer by saying he would favor it if he
were starting a system "from scratch." But he consistently adds
that's not the goal of the current reform."(Politifact)
It's law. Yes. It's a law that was grossly misrepresented and whose
end results has proven to be much more expensive and quite different than what
we were led to believe.There are other ways to help those without insurance.How
can its harmful effect on the economy and therefore the poor be so blatantly
ignored? Polls show most people do not like Obamacare, and do not trust Pres.
Obama anymore. Even with its mandates and its bureaucratic red tape, fascism has
now been passively accepted by a large segment of the population,
ACA works well for my family. Grown kids now have affordable insurance of their
own they couldn't get before, and it was far easier to get it. My own
coverage is unchanged. Things look good from here.
I am amazed by the over-the-top hyperbole of the ACA's conservative
critics. The individual mandate and state-run exchanges of PRIVATE
insurance providers was a Republican idea. It's exactly what Massachusetts
adopted, and has run successfully, for years.I get it - there's no
limit to how much you guys just hate-hate-hate that Obama. No objective evidence
can change your opinion. But here's a dose of reality that you
really need to deal with: The ACA is here to stay. There's not a
snowball's chance in Death Valley that it will be repealed or defunded. People are signing up for health insurance in increasing numbers. People
who previously couldn't afford, or buy at any price, insurance are now
getting insured. Healthcare inflation is now going _down_. Junk policies are
being replaced by real insurance plans. The ACA is working. If you
continue to rant about "socialism" while the rest of the country moves
on to other issues, you're only guaranteeing that there won't be
another Republican in the White House for at least another generation.
Please name the insurance companies that have gone out of business. How many
people do you, personally, know who have actually lost their insurance? Please
name a doctor who is being forced to participate and define your use of the word
forced.All of this is appears to be an urban myth. I have yet to
see an identity of a single person who is losing everything because of the
Affordable Care Act.
Socialism doesn't set up a private insurance marketplace... and this sure
wasn't socialism when the Heritage Foundation was proposing it, or when the
Republican alternative to Hillarycare was the individual mandate (she had the
employer mandate), or when Romney instituted it. But no, only when Obama does it
is it socialism.
Mike, please direct me to the part of the ObamaCare where I might read that
information for myself. Is the test of life available for our use
with local and state Politians as well?
Yea for Socialism, it’s the part of civilized society the makes modern
living possible. If it is choice you want, go live by yourself
outside civilized society. You can do any thing you want and have all the
freedom to boot. Just don’t expect to do or have any of the things
provided by the social agreement of socialized society.
Communist China is at 6.5% and moving to biggest economy in the world. Using the
private insurance companies to provide healthcare is hardly socialist. the
random throwing around of 1950's labels is absurd.
Continued...One of the biggest reasons, I think, this bill was
designed to not work...There are people who keep saying that this is just "a
step in the right direction". Is it any wonder where these people's
steps are leading us. This was designed to put so much incompetence out that
would make people take even more steps in their direction. Those steps lead to
what the four leaders are on record for desiring. With the end being more and
The President is on record for wanting a single payer system. Pelosi and Reid,
the leaders of congress at the time the bill passed, are on record for wanting a
single payer system. The person tapped to be in charge, Sebelius, is on record
for wanting a single payer system. With these four leaders, knowing what they
want, is there any question that this was designed to not work.Remember when Pelosi said that we need to pass it to see what's in it.
That also means that no leader understood it, which is why the President
continually gets a pass for his lies...er "misstatements". The reason it
needed to be passed so quickly, is that if people did actually read it and begin
to understand it, then there would have been no way for the bill to pass. Oh,
but wait, there were some people that did get their hands on some of it, and did
try to warn the public. But, they continually (and continue) to be labeled as
racist or something.Continued...
Oh my word give it a break. It's the law, it's under way, and your
ideological rants about socialism and communism are just....I'll get
bounced for saying it.
What ObamaCare has done is show us the character of those who foisted that
program on America. It shows which politicians would offer bribes to other
politicians (Louisiana, Nebraska, unions). It showed which politicians would
use power and authority to deny others time to fully read the bill (Pelosi and
Reid). It showed which politician refused to implement the law, as written,
choosing instead to postpone the effects of that legislation until after he was
out of office (Obama). It showed which judges ignored authorized enumerated
duties in the Constitution and declared that ObamaCare was a tax and that
Congress had the authority to tax us - totally ignoring the limits that the
people placed on Congress on what Congress can tax us for (headed by Chief
Justice Roberts).The test of life is to have our character revealed.
ObamaCare has done that. It has shown us how many scoundrels have been elected
to public office. It has shown us the depth of their corruption.
I agree. Devious people has been causing chaos for ever. the only way for evil
to triumph, is when good people do nothing. The problem is the frog in the pot
slowly being boiled to death.
Actually, a single payer system offers greater freedom in that it does not tie
you to any specific job just to get health care, and it removes a huge monkey
off the backs of employers.
Art and friends: Please look at "List of countries by unemployment
rate" at Wikipedia.Here are a few selected countries.Denmark 6.7 percentGermany 5.2 percentGreece
27.6 percentItaly 12.0 percentNorway 3.5
percentSpain 27.2 percentSweden 7.3 percentSwitzerland 3.1 percentUnited Kingdom 7.7 percentUnited
States 7.2 percentSome of those nefarious European Socialist
countries are doing better than us (USA). That is in spite of the
"fact" that Mr. Obama "lies" in bed at night trying to come up
with better ways to destroy this country.
So how does Obama intend to move us to single payer when his credibility is
Art. Haven't you learned anything about liberals? Any means to achieve
their goal of Marxism in America, their last world conquest! Lying is ok,
cheating just fine as long as it forces "social justice" (soft word for
communism) upon America. This Obamacare bait and switch is just the latest, but
it won't be the last! Why won't it be the last? Because millions of
voters are addicted to their "free cheese". China, Russia, Cuba, N Korea
et al did it with their tanks and machine guns of their military but our
liberals are doing with free entitlements. The only problem American liberals
like Obama, Pelosi and Reid have is paying for it all! They are running out of
other people's money, especially our grandchildren's money ($20
trillion national debt by 2016). And as they constantly tell us, its all
GWB's and the GOP's fault when the rest of us demand accountability
and honesty from them!