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Published: Friday, Dec. 13 2013 12:00 a.m. MST

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UtahBlueDevil
Durham, NC

WRZ…. you are way over simplifying what is going on. As arctic ice melts, it cools the average temp of the ocean. That has the effect of altering currents and jet streams. Those changes mean that you have extremes in all directions. Pointing to one data point here, or another there, proves nothing. It is taking the sum total of these that makes up the full story.

Anecdotally, we were working with one of the largest oil companies on some new exploratory wells in the Alaska tundra. We had to abort the pad because the permafrost had thawed more than usual and the ground would not support the weight of the rig. Same year, a open sea rig had to be pulled early because that same year the ice came in earlier as well. Both events, one pointing to aberrant cooling, another pointing to an unusual thaw. Both just a couple hundred miles from each other.

Don't take these data points by them selves. People who have no idea what they really mean are publishing trying to prove things without knowing that a warmer planet can also lead to cooler oceans.

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@Nate – “And where do you think I said that? Welcoming warmth and causing it are two different things.”

You’re right… I stand corrected.

I was confusing you with 97% of all climate scientists. And considering the margin of error (3%) is about the same as polled people who still believe Elvis is alive – and that based on some of your past (intelligent) comments I didn’t peg you for an Elvis-is-alive type guy – I hope you’ll understand and forgive my error.

high school fan
Huntington, UT

I have only one proposal for each side, Show me the proof! As soon as either side truly can, then we can have a real debate. And don't use a con census of scientists, science and truth is not by concensus, they just are.

Thid Barker
Victor, ID

Hey folks, check out the weather (climate) forecast for the NE. More bitter cold weather (climate change) headed your way!

Nate
Pleasant Grove, UT

@Tyler D "I was confusing you with 97% of all climate scientists."

Don't ever do that. That figure exists only in John Cook's imagination. His study has been debunked so many times, it's a surprise anyone still cites him without embarrassment.

Dr. Richard Tol arguably did the best job of destroying this myth. A curious individual could start with him. For those who don't read much, a brief quote:

"I think your sampling strategy is a load of nonsense."

mark
Salt Lake City, UT

Yes, truth and reality are what they are, high school. But, see, the question is is how do you determine what truth, or reality, is? Gut feelings? Hunches? What some guy on talk radio tells you? A chain email you received? What you read here?

You ask for someone to show you the proof. I'm curious. Do you think someone is going to deliver that proof to you personally? Come to your house and lay it all out for just you?

I'd be surprised if that happens.

No. It might take some effort on your part. Go research the science. It might take a while. You will have to put in effort. Go right to the original studies. Read the science behind the theories. Read the writings of people that actually work in the field. And read a wide range of these writings. And indeed, read from legitimate sources on both sides of the argument. And then read the counter arguments.

Educate yourself. It might take awhile. Even more then one or two evenings. Some people dedicate their entire lives to it. But you can do it. Don't accept ignorance.

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@wrz
'weather forecaster on public radio described the storm as 'historic.''

Largest December snowfall since 1954 (up to 3ft).

"Antarctic snow pack is growing. Record low recorded there. Try 135.8 degrees Fahrenheit below zero. Look it up"

Actually, in locations where the temperature doesn't get above 0F during the year, a growing snowpack can be a sign of warming since warmer temperatures lead to more water vapor and more precipitation (since it doesn't get warm enough to melt it, sure there's sublimation but that only does so much). This is not the case in locations where temperatures do get above 0F since that runs into increased melting and some of that snow falling as rain instead.

As for the -135.8F, that's a location that's barely been monitored, it might've been colder than that the past century, we just wouldn't know about it. Regardless, when making a point about global climate, one should be looking at the entire set of data rather than one point location.

Schnee
Salt Lake City, UT

@high school fan
I'd recommend the IPCC 5th Assessment Report: Summary for Policymakers or at least just look at the figures in it since even the "summary" is rather long.

the old switcharoo
mesa, AZ

Incredible dishonesty from the author and from DN for posting such a ridiculous letter. Both should be ashamed.

Every winter conservatives snark that it's cold so there is no problem with changing the atmosphere composition. What do you think it does to change the atmosphere by adding CO2? It's going to do SOMETHING.

I may as well say, "where is George Bush? he promised we would never have to worry about terrorism again." Pffff!

the old switcharoo
mesa, AZ

Please get a tatoo that says you don't believe in global warming. I just think your grandchildren should know who to slap.

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

You mean Dr. Tol the economist?

I suppose next you’ll ask us to review the latest findings from Dr. Such and Such the podiatrist, who likes to write papers (in between curing athletes foot) about monetary policy… forgive my skepticism.

To be fair Dr. Tol may have something to say about the best (market friendly) policies to address climate change, but as an authority weighing in on whether or not AGW is a fact, I think we can dismiss that nonsense out of hand.

No, I was talking about the survey that found in over 12,000 peer-reviewed papers by climate scientists only 3% (again, an Elvis-is-alive margin of error) explicitly rejected AGW. While it’s true that the Cook study was flawed in the sense that some among the other 97% still had questions (as all good science does), none of those 97% reject the hypothesis.

When that trend begins to reverse in a significant way then I (and likely many others) will alter our views, but I’ll wait for the science (rather than a guy pontificating on demand elasticity) to inform me on this one.

Thid Barker
Victor, ID

Sure, there is man made global warming and if frogs had wings, they wouldn't keep bumping their bottoms when they hop. We have a consensus of scientists that agree about the frogs and all their computer models show it as well!

Semi-Strong
Louisville, KY

Tyler D,

Very nice.

high school fan
Huntington, UT

Mark
No I am not looking for someone to present me the reality but to present to all of us. You ask me to read, to study, to talk to knowledgeable people, I have done those things over the years and I have formed my opinion which is this, we do not have a clue what is going on as to whether it is good or it is bad or that any of it matters at all.
Of course things change but we do not know if the change is what was meant to be. And so far I still have no proof just hypothesis. I also believe that we should be wise but we should also be careful that we don't overreact either way.
As I said, as soon as either side can present proof on the national stage, we can then have the debate.

Tekakaromatagi
Dammam, Saudi Arabia

"First, Al Gore said nothing of the kind. Mr. Haynes has distorted the man's message.
Second, Global Warming models have never predicted a sustained and consistent raising of temperatures everywhere on earth. There is a difference between climate and weather."

I agree that there is a difference between weather and climate and that the climate is changing.

The letter writer has used the same bad logic that Al Gore used once when, in the middle of a summer heat wave, he said that we only need to feel the temperature to see that there is a problem.

Both Al Gore and the letter-writer are making the same dumb error.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

What a shame...

Not 1 single global warming denier remembers we JUST had the HOTTEST summer ever recorded!
Right here, where they witnessed some it for themselves.

Like Gold-fish - can only remember what they heard on their radios this morning.

Flashback
Kearns, UT

The earth goes through cycles. Many factors affect these cycles. The sun most of all. Then there's those pesky volcanos. I wonder how much C02 that he volcanos on the big island of Hawaii spew out? Not to mention the one in Mexico, the Philippines, and others. How about earthquakes and how they change the earth. Does something happen there? How about the natural winds? We haven't had an El Nino for a while. Could that have something to do with what is happening?

Bottom line, man's puny efforts may be a small contributor, but with our limited knowledge and history, how can we be sure that we are the total cause of so called "Global Warming"?

I remember well in 1976/77 Newsweek did a cover story which asked the question, "Are We headed for another Ice Age?" Back then, all the reasons outlined for the ice age coming are duplicated today with the global warming crowd.

They rely too much on computer models, and computer models are only as good as the person who programs them. Also the science reflects the bias of those making the study. On both sides.

Flashback
Kearns, UT

Yea LDSLiberal, and our records here go back to what? 1847?

Sven
Morgan, UT

I have to admit, it’s hilarious watching the Algore devotes try to explain the cooling we’ve had for the past 15 or so years. The leaked IPCC report has said as much. Looks like the majority of their bogus models over estimated the “warming” we were supposed to be undergoing during this period. It’s also interesting that the cataclysmic hurricanes that were predicted due to AGW also didn’t seem to pan out.

But wait, there’s more bad news for the Algore devotes: 1) this past summer had record cold temperatures recorded across the nation, 2) in July, Antarctica recorded a near record low temp of -135.3 degrees...burr!, and 3) the arctic ice cap has grown by 29%.

Adding insult to injury to the AGW Alarmists is the fact that most people put the bogus idea of AGW at the bottom of their concern list. Strange the AGW Alarmists aren’t celebrating the good news that we aren’t warming…hmmm? Must be sad to have to deny reality.

Alter Nate
Pleasant Grove, UT

@Tyler D "You mean Dr. Tol the economist?....I think we can dismiss that nonsense out of hand."

No, we can't, and here's why: you don't have to be a climatologist to know how to conduct an honest survey. Dr. Tol, economist, has all the skills necessary to expose the spectacular problems in Cook's survey, and he has done so.

It got his attention when five of ten of his own papers were rated incorrectly. Of that number, four were classified as "endorse" when they should have been classified as '"neutral." And he's not the only person whose views were misrepresented.

A few examples:

"Certainly not correct and certainly misleading. The paper is strongly against AGW, and documents its absence in the sea level observational facts." (Nils Axel-Morner, Ph.D Quaternary Geology)

"I am sure that this rating of no position on AGW by CO2 is nowhere accurate nor correct." (Willie Soon, astrophysicist and geoscientist)

"Nothing could be further from either my intent or the contents of my paper." (Alan Carlin, Senior Operations Research Analyst, EPA, retired)

Anyone who can read can understand that Cook's survey is bogus.

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