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Letter: Golden goose

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  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 13, 2013 3:11 p.m.

    @LDSLiberal
    "2. Investments are not TAXABLE"
    @Redshirt1701
    "According to the IRS, you are taxed at least 3.8%, and up to your normal income tax rate, depending on the type of investment."

    I think you're both right, you're just referring to different things. LDS Liberal is referring to the money you're investing (say, the 10k someone invests) while Redshirt is referring to the gains on the invested money (say, the 2k someone made on their 10k investment when it became 12k).

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Dec. 13, 2013 12:44 p.m.

    It's amazing to me that an alfalfa machine maker in Enterprise Utah,
    without ever living outside of Utah,
    worked in the financial sector,
    served in the Military,
    been a research scientist of any sort,
    or been an LDS General Authority --

    can be such an world reknown expert on the economy, foregin affairs, the military, global climate change and the conditions in Anartica, and religion.

    Might as well get a radio station and start yourself a Glenn Beck University or Limbaugh Institute of Conservative Studies.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Dec. 13, 2013 11:52 a.m.

    Redshirt, " I never said the rich put their money into savings accounts. " Ahh yea you did.

    Last posts (earlier posts just variations)"Go and ask your local bank what they do with the money that is put into savings accounts of all types (CDs, mutual funds, etc...)", and I'm telling you the rich don't have the majority of their money in anything like cd's, mutual funds, or anything else that resembles what you and I have and what banks loan out (except illegally) to businesses.

    It actually does sit in McScrooge's magic vault where they pass it around amongst themselves sprinkling your sweat and tears on it to magically grow vast amounts of additional wealth.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Dec. 13, 2013 11:21 a.m.

    To "pragmatistferlife" wow, you really missed the entire point I was making.

    Go and ask your local bank what they do with the money that is put into savings accounts of all types (CDs, mutual funds, etc...). I never said the rich put their money into savings accounts. They may have some there, but I don't care. It was "LDS Liberal" that said that the rich are dumping their money into banks.

    There is a very simple presentation on TheMint dot org that explains how banks work. It is called "How Banks Work". If you want more detail, there are other sites that can explain the "magic" behind lending money that people save in the bank.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Dec. 13, 2013 10:41 a.m.

    "To "pragmatistferlife" and "LDS Liberal" I don't think either one of you understands how banks work or how investments work."

    Redshirt your naivety is charming but very misinformed. First of all the only reason the rich have anything to do with banks at all is because banks are no longer restricted to savings accounts and loans. Further you are very mistaken to believe that the rich even have their money in savings accounts.

    You want me to go to my local bank to find out what they are doing with my friends 400 million dollars..seriously?

    I'm not speaking by anecdote either. My exposure to this is systemic through not just personal friends but decades of work in the banking and investment industries.

    Sir, they hoard and take advantage of, they do not share.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Dec. 13, 2013 9:44 a.m.

    To "pragmatistferlife" and "LDS Liberal" I don't think either one of you understands how banks work or how investments work.

    When anybody puts money into a savings account, that money is not locked up and out of circulation. That money is loaned out to other people so that they can spend it, the repay it with interest. The money is still circulating, the only difference is that the owner of that money is not doing the circulation.

    To "pragmatistferlife" go and talk to your local bank branch, and ask them to explain to you how the money in savings accounts are used for loans and how that money remains in circulation.

    To "LDS Liberal" you are wrong about investments. According to the IRS, you are taxed at least 3.8%, and up to your normal income tax rate, depending on the type of investment.

    There are farmers that plant and harvest themselves. They typically plant crops like alfalfa where planting, harvesting, and hauling away can be done by 1 or 2 people. Not to mention the "hobby" farms that are 1 acre or less that people work and sell the produce from. I have relatives with "hobby" farms that employ no one.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Dec. 13, 2013 8:24 a.m.

    Redshirt1701
    Deep Space 9, Ut
    To "LDS Liberal" that is the pessimist look at the economy. Even your example is wrong. When a person decides to not spend the dollar, they can invest it, which keeps it circulating.

    =========

    1. As I stated earlier - The rich have stuffed $21 Trillion into bank accounts. Not investments, Not stocks, not bonds, not capital --- banks.

    2. Investments are not TAXABLE, so your mean old nasty evil Government taking money out at every business transaction until all the money is gone is a 100% bogus and moot point.

    3. Name one farmer who plants seeds and harvests all by himself. Farmers are like other business. The farmer hires people [usually illegal immigrants] to get his work done for him, he pays little to no tax, and gets Government subsidezes just for farming to boot.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Dec. 13, 2013 8:21 a.m.

    "The wealthy are not like Scrooge McDuck with a giant vault full of cash. Their wealth is still being passed around the circle, but now it is building more value because it is investing in the businesses that produce the goods."

    I suspect Redshirt that you don't know too many rich people. I mean the truly rich >1% because their money is not being passed around the circle as investments in businesses. It actually does sit all locked up by itself with other rich peoples money magically earning them massive wealth at your expense. Thus the core problem with our economy. It is so skewed now to this favored group that unleashing "market forces" does very little for you and me.

    I know you desperately want to believe the theories but they just aren't true now.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 5:30 p.m.

    Even geese that produce golden eggs produce other substances; dealing with the feeding of the goose and the non golden egg emissions of it will be the exclusive domain of the many and the eggs that of the very few unless we do something about it.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Dec. 12, 2013 4:52 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" that is the pessimist look at the economy. Even your example is wrong. When a person decides to not spend the dollar, they can invest it, which keeps it circulating. Now in your circle, add in one person that represents the government. Everytime the dollar is passed from one person to another you pay the government 1 cent. Without investment, how long would it be before that dollar is gone?

    It is more like you give everybody a plot of land and some seeds. Those that work it well will harvest more from it than those that don't.

    The wealthy are not like Scrooge McDuck with a giant vault full of cash. Their wealth is still being passed around the circle, but now it is building more value because it is investing in the businesses that produce the goods.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 3:56 p.m.

    The U.S. economy works very much like this simple example:

    Put five people in a circle.
    Give one a dollar and ask him to trade it for something and pass it around.
    Notice, the more it is passed around the circle the more STUFF everyone can accumulates from that one dollar.

    Now ask someone to put that dollar in their pocket.

    Wow, the four others just went broke!

    The uber-rich do not need to buy anything.
    So they just simple keep putting every dollar that comes their way into their foreign bank account pockets.

    Wow, the 99% of the rest of us keep going broke!

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 12:49 p.m.

    All of this fighting over the US going the route of socialism or going back to its roots of limited governmen reminds me of the Ancient Israelites. If you read in 1 Samuel chapter 8, you see what happens when the corruption enters into a free society and the people want a centralized power to care for them. The prophet Samuel warns the people, but in the end, they decide to give up their freedom so that they can be like everybody else.

    Are we so dumb that we think that it will turn out better for us when we go the same route of setting up an all powerful central government?

    If you want to go with the Golden Goose analogy, think of it this way. There are are lots of golden geese out there, and anybody who wants one can find one. As the DN pointed out recently, the middleclass is shrinking, but most of those who leave the middleclass end up in the upperclass.

  • RFLASH Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 12:48 p.m.

    Oh brother! It isn't just about people who do not want to work! We all know that those people exist. It is stupidity to say all government programs are set up to give away money to the lazy and poor! People never consider all the ways in which big business takes advantage of our government! It would blow people away! It isn't about big government, it is about who gets to control and use that government. Republicans want to get rid of anything that deals with the average American. Yeah, let me pay into Social security for 40 years, so they can tell me I don't deserve it! What a stupid thing to do, and meanwhile you lower taxes for the rich and give them many other tax breaks. What is the difference? They are giving them money/ Lots and lots of money! Besides, many of the areas of our government that they want to get rid of, are ones that will have to then be run by private business. You actually think they can do it cheaper! They are in it to make a profit!

  • Ajax Mapleton, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 12:21 p.m.

    Curmudgeon and others have nicely explained the fallacy of favoring the aristocracy of the wealthy few over the vast majority of Americans. Why so many who are adversely affected by this increasingly threatening trend are so adamant on its behalf is puzzling.

    Opinions such as those of the letter writer and sympathizers remind me of a passage from “A Course in Miracles.”

    “Selective perception chooses its witnesses carefully, and its witnesses are consistent. The case for insanity is strong to the insane.”

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Dec. 12, 2013 11:51 a.m.

    The Geese have seized over $21 TRILLION and safely buried it in idle Foreign bank accounts.

    That is money no longer in the U.S. economy.
    That is money no longer in circulation.
    That money is doing nothing.

    The Government is wasting it's time and more OUR money borrowing to try to infuse, inject and stimulate the economy.

    The money is there.
    The money has always been there.
    The rich and greedy have just grabbed it and stuffed it away for themselves.

    Trickle-Down economics DOESN'T work.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 11:40 a.m.

    2 bits.

    “The government doesn't create jobs or prosperity or wealth” is a lie.

    Nothing beyond ourselves and nature itself exists in this nation that is not controlled and regulated by our government(s). It is the ability of government to control who gets rich that makes people spend huge amounts of money to be the government. And provide the seeds of corruption.

    It is the nature of human beings to want more. Without government, only the strong survive. Civilization makes it possible for the weak to survive. But only when the weak stand together in a government.

    It is our great desire that our economy, the civilized sharing of wealth, work properly to prevent the strong from oppressing the weak. A main concern is the flow of money between the weak and strong for if it is stopped, everybody dies. If redistribution does not occur everybody dies.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Dec. 12, 2013 10:52 a.m.

    Yes ---

    The masses of the "little people" as we are refered to -- the Oompah-Loompah's -- we are the one's ending to, feeding and caring for those Geese.

    The problem is all those Golden Eggs are going down the garbage chute to secret Foreign bank accounts, off-shoring and the Communists in Red China.

  • VIDAR Murray, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 10:42 a.m.

    I am not worried about the golden goose.
    The goose runs the farm, owns the farm in fact.
    Even the farmer is his employee.
    The goose lets everyone think the farmer is in charge.
    The farmer knows better, the farmer knows who his master is.
    The goose gives the farmer enough to keep him in line.
    It’s the other farm animals I am worried about, they are starving.
    That goose takes everything, and leaves hardly anything for anyone else on the farm.
    And then demands that everyone thanks him for the scraps.

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    Dec. 12, 2013 10:37 a.m.

    Crumudgeon. Who's job is it to determine how well any goose should eat? What new government bureaucracy will over see that? What's wrong with being as successful, creative and innovative as you can be? In N. Korea and Cuba the government determines the limits of success. It was that way in E. Germany too but they wised up! If we continue to punish achievement we will have less of it in every level of our society. Conversely, if we continue to reward failure, low achievement and dependency, we will have more of it at every level in our society. Dependent geese lay no eggs!

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Dec. 12, 2013 10:33 a.m.

    The creation of wealth is no longer based on any work.
    Doing work and making money are not one in the same thing.

    The top 13,000 households in America,
    make more money than the lower 220 Million households combined.

    I don't think those 13,000 households are doing more than 50% of all the actual WORK in this Country.

    Something is not right.

    and this is it:
    Those with the wealth no longer value good 'ol fashion hard work.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 10:05 a.m.

    The golden goose is not the Government. It's the economy, and our free enterprise system.

    Marxists think the solution is to kill private businesses, or the people who drive our free enterprise system. They think IF you can take down the CEOs and rich people... everything will be fine. Well if you ruin people who have money needed to take risks and start new businesses... you kill the goose that COULD have created your next job, or your son's next job, or your neighbors next job.

    When we try to take down anybody with wealth... we are killing the goose that lays America's golden eggs (jobs).

    The government doesn't create jobs or prosperity or wealth. The government can't give you one dollar it didn't take from another citizen.

    Any job they create, any pay check they write... must be funded with a dollar they took from some other citizen with a job. So basically every dollar the government pays to welfare or government paychecks must first be taken from the paycheck of a person with a private job. That's just redistributing wealth... not CREATION of wealth!

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 9:59 a.m.

    Thid,

    You totally missed Roland's point. He said nothing about government taking money from the wealthy. The problem with our system is a structural problem in which those who actually create the wealth do not receive a fair share of it.

    Just to use the most blatant example, the six primary owners of Wal-Mart possess as much wealth as the bottom 42 percent of all Americans. They pay their workers so little that many qualify for food stamps. A report by the House Committee on Education and the Workforce estimated that one Wal-Mart Supercenter employing 300 workers could cost taxpayers at least $904,000 annually.

    This a structural problem. Government redistribution is merely an attempt to deal with the negative effects of this structural problem. And conservatives scream about the injustice of it all, rather than trying to solve the actual problem. Time to pull your head out of the sand, GOP, before it is to late, because this trend will eventually destroy our society.

    The real issue is the distribution of wealth, not the redistribution.

  • Curmudgeon Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 9:53 a.m.

    Thid,

    Eating reasonably well is not the same as gorging oneself, which is what the current gaggle of golden geese are doing. It's all a matter of balance--symbiosis, if you will--and the current gross inequality in income is out of balance. It's like an invasive species that consumes the very resources it needs to survive.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 9:47 a.m.

    The great Roman historian Plutarch warned us long ago of what happens when there is no brake on the power of great wealth to subvert the electorate. “The abuse of buying and selling votes, crept in and money began to play an important part in determining elections. Later on, this process of corruption spread in the law courts and to the army, and finally, when even the sword became enslaved by the power of gold, the republic was subjected to the rule of emperors.”

  • Maudine SLC, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 9:35 a.m.

    It's true the Walton's need to realize the tax payers work hard to generate what let slice of the wealth we get to take home and cannot supplement their business model forever.

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    Dec. 12, 2013 9:35 a.m.

    Crudmugeon. To take your analogy to its conclusion, if the golden goose doesn't eat reasonably well how will she invest in businesses that create jobs for the "peons" to work? When was the last time a poor goose offered you a job?

  • Sorry Charlie! SLC, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 9:22 a.m.

    I think Joan is right the American worker has to struggle to generate all that wealth maybe the bankng industry, housing industry land others big business interest need to step back and realize the gravy train can't go on forever.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    Dec. 12, 2013 9:20 a.m.

    Ultra Bob
    Cottonwood Heights, UT
    From the republican play book: Always blame the victim.

    9:04 a.m. Dec. 12, 2013

    =========

    And when bad things happen to good people,
    and you are "legitimately" loose everything in the economic meltdown,
    your finances have a way to spontaneously abort.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 9:04 a.m.

    From the republican play book: Always blame the victim.

  • Curmudgeon Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 8:51 a.m.

    Thid:

    To pursue the analogy, I'm no expert on geese, but I doubt that any goose has died from having its eggs taken away. What kills a goose is when it doesn't get enough feed. Right now, the golden geese are feeding quite well and getting fat off the work of the peons. What the geese don't realize is that when the peons don't have enough to eat themselves, they can't work to feed the geese.

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    Dec. 12, 2013 7:31 a.m.

    Ronald Kayser thinks there is an unlimited supply of other people's money that he thinks belongs to him. He wants the government to rob what's left in the nests of the next generation of golden geese but doesn't realize in doing so kills all the geese eventually. The geese will eventually learn it does no good to lay golden eggs because Kayser and his government will just confiscate them and that kills the geese just as sure as the greedy farmer who cut the goose open to get more eggs. A dead goose lays no eggs!

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 12, 2013 12:13 a.m.

    The golden geese are unbelievably healthy. They are laying more golden eggs than they have in our history. The only problem seems to be that all the eggs end up in the gated communities of the one percent, with very few left over to go to the workers who produce them.