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Published: Thursday, Dec. 12 2013 12:00 a.m. MST

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RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

All of this fighting over the US going the route of socialism or going back to its roots of limited governmen reminds me of the Ancient Israelites. If you read in 1 Samuel chapter 8, you see what happens when the corruption enters into a free society and the people want a centralized power to care for them. The prophet Samuel warns the people, but in the end, they decide to give up their freedom so that they can be like everybody else.

Are we so dumb that we think that it will turn out better for us when we go the same route of setting up an all powerful central government?

If you want to go with the Golden Goose analogy, think of it this way. There are are lots of golden geese out there, and anybody who wants one can find one. As the DN pointed out recently, the middleclass is shrinking, but most of those who leave the middleclass end up in the upperclass.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

The U.S. economy works very much like this simple example:

Put five people in a circle.
Give one a dollar and ask him to trade it for something and pass it around.
Notice, the more it is passed around the circle the more STUFF everyone can accumulates from that one dollar.

Now ask someone to put that dollar in their pocket.

Wow, the four others just went broke!

The uber-rich do not need to buy anything.
So they just simple keep putting every dollar that comes their way into their foreign bank account pockets.

Wow, the 99% of the rest of us keep going broke!

Redshirt1701
Deep Space 9, Ut

To "LDS Liberal" that is the pessimist look at the economy. Even your example is wrong. When a person decides to not spend the dollar, they can invest it, which keeps it circulating. Now in your circle, add in one person that represents the government. Everytime the dollar is passed from one person to another you pay the government 1 cent. Without investment, how long would it be before that dollar is gone?

It is more like you give everybody a plot of land and some seeds. Those that work it well will harvest more from it than those that don't.

The wealthy are not like Scrooge McDuck with a giant vault full of cash. Their wealth is still being passed around the circle, but now it is building more value because it is investing in the businesses that produce the goods.

Hutterite
American Fork, UT

Even geese that produce golden eggs produce other substances; dealing with the feeding of the goose and the non golden egg emissions of it will be the exclusive domain of the many and the eggs that of the very few unless we do something about it.

pragmatistferlife
salt lake city, utah

"The wealthy are not like Scrooge McDuck with a giant vault full of cash. Their wealth is still being passed around the circle, but now it is building more value because it is investing in the businesses that produce the goods."

I suspect Redshirt that you don't know too many rich people. I mean the truly rich >1% because their money is not being passed around the circle as investments in businesses. It actually does sit all locked up by itself with other rich peoples money magically earning them massive wealth at your expense. Thus the core problem with our economy. It is so skewed now to this favored group that unleashing "market forces" does very little for you and me.

I know you desperately want to believe the theories but they just aren't true now.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

Redshirt1701
Deep Space 9, Ut
To "LDS Liberal" that is the pessimist look at the economy. Even your example is wrong. When a person decides to not spend the dollar, they can invest it, which keeps it circulating.

=========

1. As I stated earlier - The rich have stuffed $21 Trillion into bank accounts. Not investments, Not stocks, not bonds, not capital --- banks.

2. Investments are not TAXABLE, so your mean old nasty evil Government taking money out at every business transaction until all the money is gone is a 100% bogus and moot point.

3. Name one farmer who plants seeds and harvests all by himself. Farmers are like other business. The farmer hires people [usually illegal immigrants] to get his work done for him, he pays little to no tax, and gets Government subsidezes just for farming to boot.

Redshirt1701
Deep Space 9, Ut

To "pragmatistferlife" and "LDS Liberal" I don't think either one of you understands how banks work or how investments work.

When anybody puts money into a savings account, that money is not locked up and out of circulation. That money is loaned out to other people so that they can spend it, the repay it with interest. The money is still circulating, the only difference is that the owner of that money is not doing the circulation.

To "pragmatistferlife" go and talk to your local bank branch, and ask them to explain to you how the money in savings accounts are used for loans and how that money remains in circulation.

To "LDS Liberal" you are wrong about investments. According to the IRS, you are taxed at least 3.8%, and up to your normal income tax rate, depending on the type of investment.

There are farmers that plant and harvest themselves. They typically plant crops like alfalfa where planting, harvesting, and hauling away can be done by 1 or 2 people. Not to mention the "hobby" farms that are 1 acre or less that people work and sell the produce from. I have relatives with "hobby" farms that employ no one.

pragmatistferlife
salt lake city, utah

"To "pragmatistferlife" and "LDS Liberal" I don't think either one of you understands how banks work or how investments work."

Redshirt your naivety is charming but very misinformed. First of all the only reason the rich have anything to do with banks at all is because banks are no longer restricted to savings accounts and loans. Further you are very mistaken to believe that the rich even have their money in savings accounts.

You want me to go to my local bank to find out what they are doing with my friends 400 million dollars..seriously?

I'm not speaking by anecdote either. My exposure to this is systemic through not just personal friends but decades of work in the banking and investment industries.

Sir, they hoard and take advantage of, they do not share.

Redshirt1701
Deep Space 9, Ut

To "pragmatistferlife" wow, you really missed the entire point I was making.

Go and ask your local bank what they do with the money that is put into savings accounts of all types (CDs, mutual funds, etc...). I never said the rich put their money into savings accounts. They may have some there, but I don't care. It was "LDS Liberal" that said that the rich are dumping their money into banks.

There is a very simple presentation on TheMint dot org that explains how banks work. It is called "How Banks Work". If you want more detail, there are other sites that can explain the "magic" behind lending money that people save in the bank.

pragmatistferlife
salt lake city, utah

Redshirt, " I never said the rich put their money into savings accounts. " Ahh yea you did.

Last posts (earlier posts just variations)"Go and ask your local bank what they do with the money that is put into savings accounts of all types (CDs, mutual funds, etc...)", and I'm telling you the rich don't have the majority of their money in anything like cd's, mutual funds, or anything else that resembles what you and I have and what banks loan out (except illegally) to businesses.

It actually does sit in McScrooge's magic vault where they pass it around amongst themselves sprinkling your sweat and tears on it to magically grow vast amounts of additional wealth.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

It's amazing to me that an alfalfa machine maker in Enterprise Utah,
without ever living outside of Utah,
worked in the financial sector,
served in the Military,
been a research scientist of any sort,
or been an LDS General Authority --

can be such an world reknown expert on the economy, foregin affairs, the military, global climate change and the conditions in Anartica, and religion.

Might as well get a radio station and start yourself a Glenn Beck University or Limbaugh Institute of Conservative Studies.

Schnee
Salt Lake City, UT

@LDSLiberal
"2. Investments are not TAXABLE"
@Redshirt1701
"According to the IRS, you are taxed at least 3.8%, and up to your normal income tax rate, depending on the type of investment."

I think you're both right, you're just referring to different things. LDS Liberal is referring to the money you're investing (say, the 10k someone invests) while Redshirt is referring to the gains on the invested money (say, the 2k someone made on their 10k investment when it became 12k).

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