@LDSLiberal"2. Investments are not TAXABLE"@Redshirt1701"According to the IRS, you are taxed at least 3.8%, and up to your normal
income tax rate, depending on the type of investment."I think
you're both right, you're just referring to different things. LDS
Liberal is referring to the money you're investing (say, the 10k someone
invests) while Redshirt is referring to the gains on the invested money (say,
the 2k someone made on their 10k investment when it became 12k).
It's amazing to me that an alfalfa machine maker in Enterprise Utah, without ever living outside of Utah, worked in the financial sector, served in the Military, been a research scientist of any sort, or
been an LDS General Authority -- can be such an world reknown expert
on the economy, foregin affairs, the military, global climate change and the
conditions in Anartica, and religion. Might as well get a radio
station and start yourself a Glenn Beck University or Limbaugh Institute of
Redshirt, " I never said the rich put their money into savings accounts.
" Ahh yea you did. Last posts (earlier posts just
variations)"Go and ask your local bank what they do with the money that is
put into savings accounts of all types (CDs, mutual funds, etc...)", and
I'm telling you the rich don't have the majority of their money in
anything like cd's, mutual funds, or anything else that resembles what you
and I have and what banks loan out (except illegally) to businesses. It actually does sit in McScrooge's magic vault where they pass it around
amongst themselves sprinkling your sweat and tears on it to magically grow vast
amounts of additional wealth.
To "pragmatistferlife" wow, you really missed the entire point I was
making.Go and ask your local bank what they do with the money that
is put into savings accounts of all types (CDs, mutual funds, etc...). I never
said the rich put their money into savings accounts. They may have some there,
but I don't care. It was "LDS Liberal" that said that the rich are
dumping their money into banks.There is a very simple presentation
on TheMint dot org that explains how banks work. It is called "How Banks
Work". If you want more detail, there are other sites that can explain the
"magic" behind lending money that people save in the bank.
"To "pragmatistferlife" and "LDS Liberal" I don't think
either one of you understands how banks work or how investments work." Redshirt your naivety is charming but very misinformed. First of all
the only reason the rich have anything to do with banks at all is because banks
are no longer restricted to savings accounts and loans. Further you are very
mistaken to believe that the rich even have their money in savings accounts.
You want me to go to my local bank to find out what they are doing
with my friends 400 million dollars..seriously?I'm not speaking
by anecdote either. My exposure to this is systemic through not just personal
friends but decades of work in the banking and investment industries. Sir, they hoard and take advantage of, they do not share.
To "pragmatistferlife" and "LDS Liberal" I don't think
either one of you understands how banks work or how investments work.When anybody puts money into a savings account, that money is not locked up
and out of circulation. That money is loaned out to other people so that they
can spend it, the repay it with interest. The money is still circulating, the
only difference is that the owner of that money is not doing the circulation.To "pragmatistferlife" go and talk to your local bank branch,
and ask them to explain to you how the money in savings accounts are used for
loans and how that money remains in circulation.To "LDS
Liberal" you are wrong about investments. According to the IRS, you are
taxed at least 3.8%, and up to your normal income tax rate, depending on the
type of investment.There are farmers that plant and harvest
themselves. They typically plant crops like alfalfa where planting, harvesting,
and hauling away can be done by 1 or 2 people. Not to mention the
"hobby" farms that are 1 acre or less that people work and sell the
produce from. I have relatives with "hobby" farms that employ no one.
Redshirt1701Deep Space 9, UtTo "LDS Liberal" that is the
pessimist look at the economy. Even your example is wrong. When a person decides
to not spend the dollar, they can invest it, which keeps it circulating.========= 1. As I stated earlier - The rich have stuffed $21
Trillion into bank accounts. Not investments, Not stocks, not bonds, not capital
--- banks.2. Investments are not TAXABLE, so your mean old nasty
evil Government taking money out at every business transaction until all the
money is gone is a 100% bogus and moot point.3. Name one farmer who
plants seeds and harvests all by himself. Farmers are like other business. The
farmer hires people [usually illegal immigrants] to get his work done for him,
he pays little to no tax, and gets Government subsidezes just for farming to
"The wealthy are not like Scrooge McDuck with a giant vault full of cash.
Their wealth is still being passed around the circle, but now it is building
more value because it is investing in the businesses that produce the
goods." I suspect Redshirt that you don't know too many
rich people. I mean the truly rich >1% because their money is not being
passed around the circle as investments in businesses. It actually does sit all
locked up by itself with other rich peoples money magically earning them massive
wealth at your expense. Thus the core problem with our economy. It is so
skewed now to this favored group that unleashing "market forces" does
very little for you and me.I know you desperately want to believe
the theories but they just aren't true now.
Even geese that produce golden eggs produce other substances; dealing with the
feeding of the goose and the non golden egg emissions of it will be the
exclusive domain of the many and the eggs that of the very few unless we do
something about it.
To "LDS Liberal" that is the pessimist look at the economy. Even your
example is wrong. When a person decides to not spend the dollar, they can
invest it, which keeps it circulating. Now in your circle, add in one person
that represents the government. Everytime the dollar is passed from one person
to another you pay the government 1 cent. Without investment, how long would it
be before that dollar is gone?It is more like you give everybody a
plot of land and some seeds. Those that work it well will harvest more from it
than those that don't.The wealthy are not like Scrooge McDuck
with a giant vault full of cash. Their wealth is still being passed around the
circle, but now it is building more value because it is investing in the
businesses that produce the goods.
The U.S. economy works very much like this simple example: Put five
people in a circle. Give one a dollar and ask him to trade it for
something and pass it around. Notice, the more it is passed around the
circle the more STUFF everyone can accumulates from that one dollar. Now ask someone to put that dollar in their pocket. Wow, the four
others just went broke!The uber-rich do not need to buy anything.So they just simple keep putting every dollar that comes their way into their
foreign bank account pockets.Wow, the 99% of the rest of us keep
All of this fighting over the US going the route of socialism or going back to
its roots of limited governmen reminds me of the Ancient Israelites. If you
read in 1 Samuel chapter 8, you see what happens when the corruption enters into
a free society and the people want a centralized power to care for them. The
prophet Samuel warns the people, but in the end, they decide to give up their
freedom so that they can be like everybody else.Are we so dumb that
we think that it will turn out better for us when we go the same route of
setting up an all powerful central government?If you want to go with
the Golden Goose analogy, think of it this way. There are are lots of golden
geese out there, and anybody who wants one can find one. As the DN pointed out
recently, the middleclass is shrinking, but most of those who leave the
middleclass end up in the upperclass.
Oh brother! It isn't just about people who do not want to work! We all know
that those people exist. It is stupidity to say all government programs are set
up to give away money to the lazy and poor! People never consider all the ways
in which big business takes advantage of our government! It would blow people
away! It isn't about big government, it is about who gets to control and
use that government. Republicans want to get rid of anything that deals with the
average American. Yeah, let me pay into Social security for 40 years, so they
can tell me I don't deserve it! What a stupid thing to do, and meanwhile
you lower taxes for the rich and give them many other tax breaks. What is the
difference? They are giving them money/ Lots and lots of money! Besides, many of
the areas of our government that they want to get rid of, are ones that will
have to then be run by private business. You actually think they can do it
cheaper! They are in it to make a profit!
Curmudgeon and others have nicely explained the fallacy of favoring the
aristocracy of the wealthy few over the vast majority of Americans. Why so many
who are adversely affected by this increasingly threatening trend are so adamant
on its behalf is puzzling.Opinions such as those of the letter
writer and sympathizers remind me of a passage from “A Course in
Miracles.”“Selective perception chooses its witnesses
carefully, and its witnesses are consistent. The case for insanity is strong to
The Geese have seized over $21 TRILLION and safely buried it in idle Foreign
bank accounts.That is money no longer in the U.S. economy.That
is money no longer in circulation.That money is doing nothing.The Government is wasting it's time and more OUR money borrowing to try
to infuse, inject and stimulate the economy.The money is there.The money has always been there.The rich and greedy have just grabbed it
and stuffed it away for themselves.Trickle-Down economics
2 bits. “The government doesn't create jobs or
prosperity or wealth” is a lie. Nothing beyond ourselves and
nature itself exists in this nation that is not controlled and regulated by our
government(s). It is the ability of government to control who gets rich that
makes people spend huge amounts of money to be the government. And provide the
seeds of corruption. It is the nature of human beings to want more.
Without government, only the strong survive. Civilization makes it possible for
the weak to survive. But only when the weak stand together in a government.
It is our great desire that our economy, the civilized sharing of
wealth, work properly to prevent the strong from oppressing the weak. A main
concern is the flow of money between the weak and strong for if it is stopped,
everybody dies. If redistribution does not occur everybody dies.
Yes --- The masses of the "little people" as we are refered
to -- the Oompah-Loompah's -- we are the one's ending to, feeding and
caring for those Geese.The problem is all those Golden Eggs are
going down the garbage chute to secret Foreign bank accounts, off-shoring and
the Communists in Red China.
I am not worried about the golden goose.The goose runs the farm, owns the
farm in fact. Even the farmer is his employee.The goose lets
everyone think the farmer is in charge.The farmer knows better, the farmer
knows who his master is.The goose gives the farmer enough to keep him in
line.It’s the other farm animals I am worried about, they are
starving.That goose takes everything, and leaves hardly anything for
anyone else on the farm.And then demands that everyone thanks him for the
Crumudgeon. Who's job is it to determine how well any goose should eat?
What new government bureaucracy will over see that? What's wrong with being
as successful, creative and innovative as you can be? In N. Korea and Cuba the
government determines the limits of success. It was that way in E. Germany too
but they wised up! If we continue to punish achievement we will have less of it
in every level of our society. Conversely, if we continue to reward failure, low
achievement and dependency, we will have more of it at every level in our
society. Dependent geese lay no eggs!
The creation of wealth is no longer based on any work.Doing work and
making money are not one in the same thing.The top 13,000 households
in America, make more money than the lower 220 Million households
combined.I don't think those 13,000 households are doing more
than 50% of all the actual WORK in this Country.Something is not
right.and this is it:Those with the wealth no longer value
good 'ol fashion hard work.
The golden goose is not the Government. It's the economy, and our free
enterprise system.Marxists think the solution is to kill private
businesses, or the people who drive our free enterprise system. They think IF
you can take down the CEOs and rich people... everything will be fine. Well if
you ruin people who have money needed to take risks and start new businesses...
you kill the goose that COULD have created your next job, or your son's
next job, or your neighbors next job.When we try to take down
anybody with wealth... we are killing the goose that lays America's golden
eggs (jobs).The government doesn't create jobs or prosperity or
wealth. The government can't give you one dollar it didn't take from
another citizen.Any job they create, any pay check they write...
must be funded with a dollar they took from some other citizen with a job. So
basically every dollar the government pays to welfare or government paychecks
must first be taken from the paycheck of a person with a private job.
That's just redistributing wealth... not CREATION of wealth!
Thid,You totally missed Roland's point. He said nothing about
government taking money from the wealthy. The problem with our system is a
structural problem in which those who actually create the wealth do not receive
a fair share of it.Just to use the most blatant example, the six
primary owners of Wal-Mart possess as much wealth as the bottom 42 percent of
all Americans. They pay their workers so little that many qualify for food
stamps. A report by the House Committee on Education and the Workforce estimated
that one Wal-Mart Supercenter employing 300 workers could cost taxpayers at
least $904,000 annually.This a structural problem. Government
redistribution is merely an attempt to deal with the negative effects of this
structural problem. And conservatives scream about the injustice of it all,
rather than trying to solve the actual problem. Time to pull your head out of
the sand, GOP, before it is to late, because this trend will eventually destroy
our society.The real issue is the distribution of wealth, not the
Thid,Eating reasonably well is not the same as gorging oneself,
which is what the current gaggle of golden geese are doing. It's all a
matter of balance--symbiosis, if you will--and the current gross inequality in
income is out of balance. It's like an invasive species that consumes the
very resources it needs to survive.
The great Roman historian Plutarch warned us long ago of what happens when there
is no brake on the power of great wealth to subvert the electorate. “The
abuse of buying and selling votes, crept in and money began to play an important
part in determining elections. Later on, this process of corruption spread in
the law courts and to the army, and finally, when even the sword became enslaved
by the power of gold, the republic was subjected to the rule of emperors.”
It's true the Walton's need to realize the tax payers work hard to
generate what let slice of the wealth we get to take home and cannot
supplement their business model forever.
Crudmugeon. To take your analogy to its conclusion, if the golden goose
doesn't eat reasonably well how will she invest in businesses that create
jobs for the "peons" to work? When was the last time a poor goose
offered you a job?
I think Joan is right the American worker has to struggle to generate all that
wealth maybe the bankng industry, housing industry land others big business
interest need to step back and realize the gravy train can't go on forever.
Ultra BobCottonwood Heights, UTFrom the republican play book: Always
blame the victim.9:04 a.m. Dec. 12, 2013=========And when bad things happen to good people, and you are
"legitimately" loose everything in the economic meltdown, your
finances have a way to spontaneously abort.
From the republican play book: Always blame the victim.
Thid:To pursue the analogy, I'm no expert on geese, but I doubt
that any goose has died from having its eggs taken away. What kills a goose is
when it doesn't get enough feed. Right now, the golden geese are feeding
quite well and getting fat off the work of the peons. What the geese don't
realize is that when the peons don't have enough to eat themselves, they
can't work to feed the geese.
Ronald Kayser thinks there is an unlimited supply of other people's money
that he thinks belongs to him. He wants the government to rob what's left
in the nests of the next generation of golden geese but doesn't realize in
doing so kills all the geese eventually. The geese will eventually learn it does
no good to lay golden eggs because Kayser and his government will just
confiscate them and that kills the geese just as sure as the greedy farmer who
cut the goose open to get more eggs. A dead goose lays no eggs!
The golden geese are unbelievably healthy. They are laying more golden eggs than
they have in our history. The only problem seems to be that all the eggs end up
in the gated communities of the one percent, with very few left over to go to
the workers who produce them.