Duckhunter,You asked for consistency and and end to hypocricy.
Since we are asking for things, I would like accuracy.You claimed
that "BYU's SOS is stronger than almost all of the teams from those
'big 5' conferences." That isn't true.
According to Sagarin, 33 of the 62 big 5 conference teams played a more
challenging schedule that BYU in 2012. The statement you could have made
accurately would have been - BYU's SOS is stronger than that of almost half
of the teams from the big 5 conferences.Whether BYU would have
played a tougher schedule as a member of one of the big 5 conferences is a more
complicated issue. It depends on which conference (and division) we are talking
about, and which opponents BYU would have kept for their OOC games.Since more than half of the big 5 conference teams played tougher schedules
than the Cougars, it stands to reason that competing in a big 5 conference may
not have made BYU's SOS go down, but more likely would have improved it.
I still can't understand why Utah "fans" read BYU stories and feel
they need to comment on our team... Go back to wearing your PAC-12 Country
shirts, stickers and flags. On that note, there isn't a single PAC-12
school, but Utah, that tries to advertise the Conference. That is how awful Utah
is right now. They have to advertise their conference and not the school. To
think you guys are even considering firing Kyle, and just who do you think you
are? What coach wants to coach at Utah? if they don't have Utah ties, then
the Utah job is just a career builder, ala Urban. BYU fans, be
realistic here. Taysom and Jamaal probably don't run for that many yards if
they play in the PAC 10.2, Big 12, Big 10, SEC or ACC. That is the realistic
truth.There is a lot to look forward to. 1st year of a new offensive
system. Remember, not a single player on the offense was recruited to play in
this system. They are all Doman guys and his offense. Give another 1-3 years
where Anae can get his guys in there and things "should" look better.
@thrillerSo what you wanted was affirmation to help prop up your
fragile ego and help you settle your insecurities? Glad I could help. But it
doesn't change the fact that that was not the discussion or that you had to
make a vain attempt to change the subject to try and get some validation. Sad
really.@utah 95"I also sincerely believe that they
would not have been as successful in any of the big 5 conferences."But the utah "fan" reliance on SOS as an excuse for utah's poor
performance doesn't jibe with that statement. In fact BYU's SOS is
stronger than almost all of the teams from those "big 5" conferences
including the ones playing in BCS bowls. The only conference you can make that
case for would be the pac12 because playing in any of those other conferences
would have made BYU's SOS go down, and if their SOS had been weaker
wouldn't it stand to reason, using your logic of course, that their
performance would have been better? All I really want from utah
"fans" is consistency and an end to the hypocrisy. I know that
DuckhunterHighland, UT@thrillerWhat is it you want me to
"respond" about? That utah has had more players drafted recently? OK
exactly what I was looking for Duckhunter. Now don't go and forget it.
@nhatch82Good comment. Thanks for actually being rational and composed in
your critique. That's my main problem with some people on here. If they
disagree, no matter how valid the other point was, it automatically becomes a
"fail" or "a typical (insert fan base) post" and that's
what drives me crazy.You're right that 3 is only slightly
higher than 2 which is why I also included the second-round information to back
up my point which was that while BYU does a lot of things well, some even better
than Utah, getting people into the NFL is clearly advantage Utah. But I'm
like you, I also cheer for other players from the state like Pitta and
Wagner.I disagree in that I do think a lot of people care about how
well your school does in making pros; people such as fans and recruits.
Duckhunter's post kind of confirms that when he has to throw in that Ziggy
was taken "far far above" Star. It shows he cares (and seems a little
insecure) about who gets drafted where. So I thought I'd give him some
Duckhunter,My congratulations to Hill, Williams, and the BYU team
are sincere. I also sincerely believe that they would not have been
as successful in any of the big 5 conferences. And I firmly believe that
unbiased followers of college football would agree with me on this issue.51 of the 62 teams in the big 5 conferences faced 3 or more top 30
opponents this year. BYU faced 2, and predictably lost to them both.I didn't say that BYU should be embarrassed by their schedule.
Considering the challenges of being early in independence, it was an admirable
schedule. It was better than any schedule Utah has played before 2013, but I
wouldn't characterize BYU's 35th best SOS as "much higher"
than Utah's 41st (2012) or 49th (2011) schedules.Sagarin ranked
5-7 Utah as being only 2 spots below 8-4 BYU. Couldn't one "reasonably
surmise" that Sagarin believes that playing BYU's schedule versus
Utah's is worth an additional 3 wins? What you called
Utah's "abysmal" performance included beating BYU - again. That
result is also "a part of the permanent record college football."We often don't agree, Ducky. But if you're aiming for BYU
haters, trust me, I'm not your guy...
Put togehter an 8 or 12 team playoff then you don't have to make a fuss
about SOS and a bunch of speculating about whatever. You'll actually see
some great football in place of (this is my dream) all of these useless bowl
games. How and why we are where we are is just stupid. 4 team
playoff should only be a step to an actual playoff and tournament with more
teams. The National Champion will actually earn it under such a scenario.
About the same as they did out of one.
@utah95"But don't kid yourself, BYU's win-loss record
and individual statistics wouldn't be as shiny if they'd faced top
tier opponents week after week."But they did, utah
"fans" like to just keep lying about it. BYU played the #32 SOS in the
country which is a tougher SOS than almost all of the teams playing in BCS bowls
this year. Don't believe me? Well look it up, it is true. BYU beat more
teams going to bowl games than utah did and also played a tougher SOS than utah
did in its first two years in the pac12. Seeing as though BYU's SOS was
much higher than utah's in its first two years in the pac12, and BYU has a
better record than utah had in either of those years, we can reasonably surmise
BYU would have performed at least as well, if not better, than utah has. You can use SOS to make whiney excuses for utah's abysmal
performance all you want but it doesn't make it go away, the abysmal
performance is still a part of the permanent record of college football.
@crowWell since you borught baksetball into it then let's
discuss that sport. BYU has beaten utah 7 in a row, 11 of the last 12, and has
the overall series lead. Yes BYU would be vastly more competitive in the pac12
than utah is because BYu is vastly better than utah is.And yes you
are obviously worried about since you are on a BYU article trying to claim how
superior utah is when they demonstrably are not, in any sport. Fun
stuff for me though so do keep it up. LOL!
@ Duckhunter Are we not talking about football since tricky Dick brought up the
argument that Hill and Williams would thrive in a conference. Now when the other
sports come relevant to football and Basketball then maybe I will care about
what BYU has done in the past. But until cross country, tiddley winks, and
basket weaving become relevant who cares. Utah is still in the
Conference of Champions and their recruiting and facilites are improving to the
point that we will be able to compete and be more competative in the other
sports. So no worries
@ThrillerYou realize that the point you were making is that since
2000 BYU has 2 1st round draft picks and Utah has 3 right? We are aware that
more Utes have entered the draft than the cougs but you originally called out
Duckhunter for saying Ziggy was drafted 9 spots ahead of Star and made a big
deal about how little of a difference that is. 3 vs 2 isn't a huge
discrepancy either. I dont think this makes anyone insecure. Yes Utah has had
more success in the NFL, but I dont think anyone really cares that much. The
rivalry ends after they graduate. I dont cheer against ute players in the NFL.
In fact I frequently cheer on the Loutulaieleisies (No Idea how to spell
it),Smith's, and Weddle's in the league.
It's interesting that the Deseret News' most tenured BYU homer is
wondering how life would be in a conference. What's wrong Dick, still
haven't gotten over Utah getting invited to go west instead of your beloved
Cougars?Congratulations to Hill and Williams for teaming up for an
historic season. And ongratulations to BYU for winning 8 games. But don't kid yourself, BYU's win-loss record and individual
statistics wouldn't be as shiny if they'd faced top tier opponents
week after week. If you can't bring yourself to admit that
from watching Utah struggle while moving to the Pac 12, then look at TCU's
and WVU's experiences since moving up to the Big 12.
@thrillerWhat is it you want me to "respond" about? That
utah has had more players drafted recently? OK they have but I never said they
haven't, nor did I ever make any other claims about it, you just did that
to try to deflect from the failure of yours and cowboys posts. But
of course almost all of those players were drafted from a mwc program, not a
pac12 program, and that had nothing to do with what cowboy was trying to claim.
The only thing that mattered in his claim was that he tried to say lotuleilei
was drafted in the first round because of conference affiliation while
BYU's players were hurt by no conference affiliation when I demonstrated
perfectly it was untrue since BYU actually had a player drafted substnatially
higher in the exact same draft.You can try to deflect to another
subject if you want to, and I will continue to point out the failure of doing
so. jordan gross and alex smith have exactly nothing to do with the failed
"point" cowboy failed at making and I exposed.
@crowWhich record of BYU's "would still be worse"? Are
you just talking about football or are you talking about overall athletics? In
football I highly doubt they'd be any "worse" although I will grant
you that it would be about the same. But in overall sports BYU would be so
vastly superior to what utah is, because they are so vastly superior to what
utah is, that it would be even more embarrassing for you. BYU has a perenial top
25 overall athletic program. They actually win National Championships in other
sports, with soem frequency. The pac12 prides itself on the championships it
wins in minor sports and BYU is a top program in almost all minor sports. They
would not only compete well in the pac12 in those sports they would be at the
top of the pac12 in many of them, and competitive in ALL of them. utah is not particularly competitive in any of them, at least not thus far,
and is nowhere close to winning a conference championship in any of them. Just
the way it is.
@DuckhunterCouldn't one also say that you "completely
ignored the fact" that Reynolds went from being a potential first-round pick
from the MWC one year to an undrafted player from an independent the next?While I don't agree entirely with cowboy, his point's valid
that Reynolds couldn't be placed onto any kind of all-conference team to
help him. That's not a "fail" of an argument. Your point about
Ziggy is also good. The difference I see between Ansah and Reynolds is that
Ansah did receive recognition, like Senior Bowl MVP, that boosted him. But
you've both got good points, which was my point.Also, I looked
up a definition for painting with a broad brush for you. It says "To
describe a class of objects...in general terms, without specific details and
without attention to individual variations." Your quotes: "Typical utah
'fan' post by you" and "That is a [sic] typical for utah
'fans' on these boards." Sounds like you do paint with a broad
brush.Finally, you've again failed to respond to my original
post about the draft history. I'd love to hear from you about that.
In Dick Harmon's "just for fun" projection, he fails to consider
the difficulty of playing in a major conference. It is a tough grind. There is
no "recovery week" against Idaho State or Nevada. Rough week at
Wisconsin? Now you face Michigan, then Penn State, then Ohio State. Would
Williams and Hill survive the season uninjured? Maybe. What about their
offensive line and receivers? A couple of key injuries can quickly make your
team one dimensional.Now that the season is over, we see that BYU
"toughest schedule ever" meant playing only one team in the top 25. One
team! Congrats to Williams and Hill for the accomplishment, but how would they
have fared in the PAC12 (5 top 25 teams) or Big12 (3 top 25 teams)? Not so
When we play weak give me games, (Idaho State, Middle Tenn. etc), we rack up
great stats that are almost meaningless for anything other than racking up great
stats. When we play tough teams, like Wisconsin or DN, our stats do not look
nearly as rich.Conclusion:If we compare ourselves to what we
might be in the MWC, we would be a top contender each year.If we compare
ourselves to what we might be in the Pac 12 or Big 12, we may find ourselves in
the same position that Utah is now in. Strength of schedule makes a definite
@duckhunter byus record would still be worse. Utah just needs to build depth
something byu can not do with the limitations. If byu can't recruit the
teos and the latest top lds recruit who just accepted an offer at notre dame.
Utah will be there in two to three years byu will still be padding their
schedules. Have fun watching cougar football next year. If you don't go
undefeated with that schedule you truly don't belong.
@crow4-53-6 2-7Those are the progressive
records of the utah football team since joining the pac12. Nothing about that
"showed this year that they can compete with any one in the Pac", in
fact what it "showed" is that they are getting progressively less
competitive. You can try to spin it anyway you want but the records do not
lie.If you want I can also post utah's pac12 overall record in
all sports but I'll warn you up front it is extremely bad, double digits
below .500 and a real embarrassment. But you just say the word and I'll
post it for you. Do you want to know what it is?
@thrillerHere is his quote, and it was obviously a giant failure
whether you like me pointing it out or not."BYU goes independent
and struggles and with no conference awards he was just another dude on another
below average team and he goes undrafted in an epic draft stock free fall.As opposed to Star Lotuleilei who got recognition and went in the first
round."So he tried to make the case that BYU's independence
is causing their players to lose draft stock and be drafted lower, then uses a
utah player as evidence of it while completely ignoring the fact independent BYU
had a player drafted substantially higher than the utah player he was trying to
use as an example in the exact same draft.Yes it was a failure, yes
you intentionally ignored that fact in a lame attempt to "counter" me
and yes I pointed out you failed as well. That is a typical for utah
"fans" on these boards, not a "broad brush" at all, a simple and
demonstrable fact which I have now proven twice.
@DuckhunterTell me, what context does cowboy's post provide
that invalidates anything I said?My post was in reply to you saying
Ansah was drafted "far far above" Lotulelei, which, of course, is
ridiculous. Then I provided some possible motivation for you being so insecure
about BYU's draft history.If you want to talk about
cowboy's post, let's talk about cowboy's post. He had an
observation and found some evidence that supported it. You found some evidence
that countered his idea. Does that somehow make him a failure, as you say, and
you correct? His supporting evidence was just as strong as your counter
evidence.Also, you never addressed anything from my post. Is that
the typical BYU fan response? Since we're painting people with broad
brushes, I guess I need to know how to describe all BYU fans everywhere.Oh, and did your Shift button break again when you typed Utah? Why do
you put fan in quotation marks? More subtle slights.Finally, 2010
junior high students called, they want their "fail" phrase back.
@cougndawg unlike byu Utah belongs they have a better ability to recruit the
depth necessary to compete in a premier league. The showed this year that they
can compete with any one in the Pac but losing Scott, Murphy,Wilson,Tonga
hampered their depth and offensive output. Byu just lost to the teams in the
premier leagues even though they were at full strength on offense. Again stay
were you belong on the outside looking in or go back to the mwc.
@thrillerTypical utah "fan" post by you, focus on my reply
but completely ignore the utah "fan" I was responding to. Of course that
puts it into context but context did not fit your agenda now did it. Fail.@2ferYes...."really". Last I checked a top 5 pick is
far above one in the teens. Isn't a top 5 ranking far above one in the
teens? Or is a ranking in the teens just as good? I'm pretty sure utah
"fans" have been trying to tell us for the last several years how
utah's #4 finishes in football are vastly better than BYU's teen
finishes during the last decade or are you now trying to tell us it is not? More
likely what you are trying to do is employ the hypocritical utah "fan"
double standard of rankings only matter when they can be spun to favor utah but
they are meaningless when they favor BYU. Nice try but fail.
Let's face it, BYU will never have the same caliber of athletes as Utah,
since its academic standards are so much higher. Most of the high draft picks
from Utah would have never been admitted at BYU, let alone remained academically
eligible. Let's not even talk about the honor code. So having two 1,000+
rushers against this year's schedule is outstanding. Even the top 10 teams
in the country had some patsies on their schedule, so I don't buy "they
did it against ID State" arguments. Considering the restrictions
BYU has in its academic standards and its honor code, and the high integrity
that the coaches run the program under, the accomplishment of being independent
with a strong schedule and the ESPN exposure is outstanding. The fact that they
continue to have successful bowl eligible seasons is icing on the cake. Most schools would love to play on national TV almost every week. Other
than Notre Dame, no one else has BYU's deal, not even Bama,Texas, USC, Ohio
St, Michigan, Auburn or you name it. This exposure will bear significant fruit
very soon. Good things are around the corner!
If you're having trouble with the six wins over which bowl-bound teams let
me help.Dec. 24 Hawaii (Honolulu): Colorado State (MWC) vs. MIDDLE
TENNESSEE (C-USA)Dec. 26 Poinsettia (San Diego): BOISE STATE (MWC)
vs. *Toledo (MAC)Dec. 28 Pinstripe (New York City): *Notre Dame vs.
HOUSTON (AAC)Dec. 28 Buffalo Wild Wings (Phoenix): TEXAS (Big 12)
vs. Nebraska (Big Ten)Dec. 30 Armed Forces (Fort Worth): UTAH STATE
(MWC) vs. NavyDec. 30 Music City (Nashville): GEORGIA TECH (ACC) vs.
Ole Miss (SEC)Impressive that six wins are over teams that are bowl
Crow:"They would not last a full season in a premier conference. They
lack depth and athleticism in many of the skill positions. Stay were you belong
byu on the outside looking in."Sounds like good advice for your
utes...I mean they've PROVEN they don't belong in a premier conference
. Maybe they should go back to where they belong...you know where they could
only get 6 conference championships in half a century against "sisters of
What isn't the "what if" game is the fact that six of BYU's
victories came against teams that will be good enough to be bowling this year.
That seems like a team that has put together a very good schedule and has played
hard all season long.Tough part about the season was losing to two
teams that were poor enough to not even qualify for a bowl bid. The Cougs need
to beat sub-par teams on their schedule like Nevada, Idaho State, and Virginia
(all teams schedule a few of those) and they also really need to win more than
one game against top 25 teams like Texas, Notre Dame, and Wisconsin.But again beating those six bowl bound teams and adding the upcoming
Washington Huskies is a successful season.Looking forward to that
bowl game against a PAC-10.2 team and another fun season in 2014 with those two
sensational sophomores. GO FAST AND GO HARD.GOOOOOOOOOOOO
Star will be the defensive rookie of the year. That will be the 2nd Ute with the
same accomplishment. Mike Anderson being the offensive rookie of the year. Ansa
will be out of the league in 2 years because he can't stay healthy.
"drafted as the #5 overall pick, far, far above star lotuleilei."...Really?
Pipe dreams by dick Harmon. Byu should try to get back into the mwc. After all
they built their reputation by beating the sisters of the poor. They would not
last a full season in a premier conference. They lack depth and athleticism in
many of the skill positions. Stay were you belong byu on the outside looking in.
This article was written tounge in cheek - right?
@Duckhunter I see you only managed to capitalize Ziggy Ansah's
name but not Star Lotulelei's. Subtle slight. Did your Shift button break
or are you just that jealous that Utah had yet another 1st round pick? Also, I
doubt anyone would count the 5th pick as being "far far above" the 14th
pick. 9 spots is hardly "far far above."Checking past
drafts I see BYU's last first rounder was Rob Morris in 2000. It had been
13 years since BYU had had a first round pick. I guess that gives you the right
to feel insecure since Utah had Jordan Gross go in the first round (8th overall)
in 2003, Alex Smith went 1st overall in 2005, and then Star last year. Also, in
that time, Utah had six players taken in the second round, several of which have
gone on to be Pro Bowlers. BYU had 3 2nd round picks, none of which are still in
the league.BYU has some things to be proud of and they even do some
things better than Utah. But it's very sad to believe they hold any sort of
superiority when it comes to the NFL Draft.
They would have had no where near as many yards in the PAC-12. I am not sure
how you would account for that in your story but, that is one glaring point that
is missing from the speculation about where these 2 backs would rank in the
PAC-12. The yards BYU gained vs. their scheduled opponents vs. a PAC-12
schedule would be significant. That does not take away that they had a great
year. Nice runing guys!
Re: Blue Husky "When Penn State joined the Big 10, they
disappeared."Penn St. Joined the Big 10 23 years ago. Not
exactly current newsworthy information for any comparison. They joined to avoid
the problem BYU faces as an independent today.As a member of the Big
10 they have played in and won the Rose Bowl, two Fiesta Bowls and the Orange
Bowl, among many others. Not exactly a disappearing act. Everyone knows why
they haven't been heard of lately and it has nothing to do with joining a
A good article. BYU really needs a light schedule like next year, so maybe they
can run the table or come close to it to try to get into a major conference just
like utah did for two different seasons.
It doesn't matter if you don't beat everyone. Seriously, when
you're not in a conference, you better win every chance you get to play and
BYU just didn't show well this year against VA and that school that was the
bottom of the PAC. Those games are MUST wins. The team motto for next season
ought to be "FINISH EVERY PLAY", because they were just barely better
than good regardless how many yards 2 guys rushed for.
They would have be #1 fer sure.
Conference schmonference. BYU is on TV every week. They played high profile
games. Their players were seen by the fans of every team they played. BYU is
getting more respect than ever. ND and Penn State went to big bowl games as
independents. When Penn State joined the Big 10, they disappeared.BYU has a much better chance of a big bowl game than most teams in a
conference.Just win, baby.
Who are you: "How would they do in a major conference? We'll never
know."As opposed to the Utes. We know exactly their performance
in a major conference, in all sports, three years running. Not pretty.And that's before Washington added a football coach who owns Kyle
Whittingham and the U.
This is dumb. If they were in the PAC and its style of defense, (i
am not a Ute troll)....no way they make it anywhere near thier numbers. Have to
play 9 as good as or better foes (like ND and Wisconsin). No Idaho staes or
weber states or porous Houston defenses.
@cowboy99Fail. Ziggy Ansah got no previous season accolades, no pre
season accolades, didn't even start the first several games, was never in a
conference at all, and was basically a complete unknown, and all he did was get
drafted as the #5 overall pick, far, far above star lotuleilei. LOL!
I think the independence does the players a huge disservice. Without an
individual conference ranking their draft stock it seriously damaged. Take Matt
Reynolds heading, into his senior year after 3 years of recognition and awards
in the MWC he was being projected as a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick (albeit he
was way overrated but that furthers my point). But then BYU goes independent
and struggles and with no conference awards he was just another dude on another
below average team and he goes undrafted in an epic draft stock free fall.As opposed to Star Lotuleilei who got recognition and went in the first
round.Independence may be helping BYU make more money but it's
causing the players to lose tons of money in their future careers.But then again College football loves making money at the players expense...
Next year's team could be very good if BYU can develop a solid offensive
line and Anae gets a little more imaginative with his play calling on 1st down
and in the blue zone.As Y Grad / Y Dad said, an undefeated season
likely wouldn't get BYU into the playoff, but it could lead to a high Top
10 finish and establish BYU as a serious contender in 2015, just as BYU's
11-1, #7 finish in 1983 set the table for BYU's national championship run
While we're playing the "what if" game, let's try this one;
what if they were actually in a conference, any conference, so an 11-1 season
could mean they actually had a shot at a BCS bowl game. As it stands now, it
doesn't matter if they finish 11-1 or 6-6, they go to the same lower level
bowl game. While conference teams with 2 or 3 losses are placed in the higher
profile bowls. So, all we have left at the end of the season is
playing the "what if" game.
How would they do in a conference like the Mountain West Conference? We'll
see next year.How would they do in a major conference? We'll
Another nice journey of statistical hypotheticals. These guys are great to
watch, and I would expect (correct use of the word here, Dick) Hill and Williams
would have finished number 1 in the MWC. But against the kind of teams in the
PAC 12 and Big 12, they would have never attained this kind of yardage, as
witnessed by the games vs. Utah, Notre Dame and Wisconsin.The more
troubling aspect of this is why our QB needed to run so often. Hill's a
great athlete, but I suspect his yardage totals have more to do with not having
an offensive scheme that gets Hoffman or Apo open, or that throws to the tight
ends or backs. Hill never had time to read the defense and didn't progress
much in this aspect over the season. The hurry-up was just a gimmick in the end.
Our guys were going fast but couldn't really execute so it was absolutely
pointless. Can we honestly say the hurry-up led to more points or
yardage? If not, then it needs to be junked. There was no advantage because our
line and QB couldn't execute.Conclusion: the sooner we lose
Anae, the better.
Yeah, Tom (and Dick), my son and I are having fun prognosticating too. Bad
news, next year is a much less challenging schedule. Good news, should be an
offensive dream come true.One game at a time, especially teams from
Texas, and we just COULD end up undefeated. Still on the outside looking in
because of schedule, but causing people to look over their shoulder and say,
"who ARE those guys?"Then their senior year, we appear to
have another decently solid schedule. And a senior quarterback. Plus a running
back who should be well on his way to becoming the Cody Hoffman of his class.Really can't let no ankle biters wipe the grin off my face!
Next year will be even better, and their senior year will be off the chart. Good
times ahead for the Cougars.