To "UT Brit" I know of people in Germany that are exicted about getting
a new medical procedure. It is a procedure that has been available here for
over 20 years.I don't think that every Frenc citizen is paying
1550 euros a month. Some are spending a lot more because they are taxed as a
percentage of their income, not a flat rate.If you don't like
my list, please give me a list that shows a systemic problem in the US.
Don't just find articles about isolated incidences, find something that
shows that there is a problem with medical care throughout the US.
@RedshirtI personally know someone in the US who has to use medicine
intended for horses because they are unable to get insurance. A forum I go on
has a sub forum dedicated to Americans talking amongst themselves on how to get
cheap medicine, some of them requesting advice on how to do dentistry on
themselves. Some of them show their medical bills after they have been to
hospital, I have seen mostly 5 figure and some 6 figure sums for things that
would be treated as routine in my country. America is universally recognised as
having the worst healthcare system in the first world. You lead in survivability
in some types of cancers in some of the age brackets (over 65's) but thats
about it. How many countries have you lived in Redshirt?You produce
a list like this everytime, here is the difference, things like that make
national headlines in those countries. A child dying from a jaw infection due to
lack of care is common news in the US. People losing their homes because of
medical bills is not reportedAlso if you think every French citizen
is paying 1550 euros a month you have no idea.
To "Ernest T. Bass" how about this. Lets look at what you get in a few
European countries for care:From the Canadian NIH and their study
"Cumulative incidence for wait-list death in relation to length of queue for
coronary-artery bypass grafting: a cohort study" we learn that people die
because they are waiting for surgery or the surgery occurs too late.From the UK Telegraph "Lung cancer victims denied lifesaving scans".
Isn't it nice to have the government condemn you to death just because you
get lung cancer?From France we read in IBD's article "Vive
Le French Care?" that it costs French citizens 1550 Euros/month
($2100/month) for health insurance. They pay more for their insurance than we
do in the US by a factor of 3.From Germany we read "Germany cuts
health care spending, raises premiums" in the Washington Times. Isn't
it nice that they cut care and raise prices. All for 15.5% of your Gross
pay.From Reuters we read "Greek health system crumbles under
weight of crisis". Isn't it nice when you tie healthcare to government
that when there is a problem with the government, everybody suffers.
Redshirt, actually it is.NPR interviewed a man who needed a hip
replacement. For some strange reason his American health insurer wouldn't
cover it (surprise, surprise).He flew to the Netherlands where he had it
done for a total cost of $16,000 which included follow up care and airfare.In the US, the hardware alone cost more than $16,000. Imagine a
healthcare system not based on greed.
Gildas, I agree that health care costs are stupidly high, especially compared to
the rest of the world. That knee replacement surgery would have cost around 13
to 18K in England or Sweden. It so happens knee replacements are one of the
surgeries routinely compared. However do you really want American doctors to
bring their cost for knee replacement surgery down to 18K by simple market
competition? I think it's clear we have too much third party
involvement in health care but I would suggest the third party that needs to go
is private insurance along with employer involvement. England
looked at a battered and injured population at the end of WWll and said theirs
no way a private insurance market can meet the needs of our citizens and then
correctly opted for the system they have. We now look out over a
battered and injured population after 70 years of private insurance and say, hey
just let the markets do more of what they've all ready done, it will get
better. Of course it will?
To "Ernest T. Bass" actually it isn't. Their cancer survival rates
are lower, and they have limited the types of procedures available. Not to
mention all of the strikes that occur because of lack of funding for doctors.
Healthcare in Europe is much better than in the US and much less expensive.
UtahBlueDevilDurham, NCIf you can figure that out - and
preserve the opt out option - you have my vote.11:28 a.m. Nov. 25,
2013---------I was thinking a living will corresponding
with a permanent tatoo.That way, emergency personal, doctors,
lawyers, etc. can all save us time and money knowing who opted -- and they can
leave them up to their own demise.Just they way they wanted it.
"Whatever else everyone should be able to choose, without penalty, to opt
out of health insurance."I would agree with this... on the
condition that these same people as accept the responsibility of all charges,
and will never expect either the public or the health care delivery system to
absorb the cost of them not having insurance. Their choice to not
pay should not come at the expense of someone else. Which it does now - today.
And a child should never be denied medical care because they have irresponsible
parents. If you can figure that out - and preserve the opt out
option - you have my vote.
I'll start listening to alternatives… when the
Republican party has one.
Elections have consquences. The people have spoken, Obamacare is here to stay.
At least for 3 more years.
Since ninety-one percent of Americans now think Obamacare should be abolished or
changed, this subject is a propos. The problem of how it can be changed must
relate to the fact that health care insurance is not an ennumerated power of the
federal government.That being the case Obamacare must be abolished
as a federal program and it will be up to the states and the people to decided
what they want to do about health care and medical insurance.It is
my view that there is a problem and that something should be done. After having
recently talked to a man who was bill $59K for a knee replacement and $9 for the
administration, and suffered, in the process three holes in his stomach
resulting from the prescribed pills to reduce inflammation after the operation,
I am reminded that health care costs are out of control.Perhaps it
would help if doctors and hospitals would be required to publish their charges
for the various operations and procedures and make those publications easily
available. Whatever else everyone should be able to choose, without penalty, to
opt out of health insurance.
Ninety-One percent of Americans think Obamacare should be abolished or
changed.I agree. I also agree that the Republicans did nothing,
when they had the chance, to improve the health care industry.What
could they or the democrats do?I just talked to a man who is being
billed $59K for a knee replacement operation.The anti-inflammatory
medicine he was given burned three holes in his stomach and one pill cost $9.Americans adopt unhealthy lifestyles such as gluttony, drunkenness, drug
addiction, promiscuous sex, heterosexual and homosexual. Millions kill their
own offspring while still in the womb. They trust in the arm of flesh when it
comes to professionals in health care and other professions. They eat a lot of
animal fat and red meat.Perhaps the gov'mt should advise us to
avoid these life styles adding a few choice statistics to drive the point
home.They should gradually un-involve themselves in health care and
leave health care to the states and to the people. There should be no mandates.
This is a free country or should be.They could insist that doctors
and hospitals publish their charges.
It's like saying the Falcons need a solution, but not from the NFL.
Vouchers, interstate commerce, and malpractice caps. The same sleight-of-hand
distractions that right wingers have been trotting out for years instead of
offering real legislation. Look, guys, Obamacare is here to stay.
If you want to improve it, offer real suggestions instead of holding your breath
and wishing that Mitt Romney had been elected instead.
Not from Europe? Like others have already pointed out they pay less per captita,
are healthier and cover everyone! The only people I have heard
"suffering" is the Dr's that "only" make $150,000 a year
instead of $250,000 a year.When I was in Spain an American lady
stepped out in front of a bus and was critically injured. Her husband was
pleasantly surprised and grateful to find out there was no bill for the 2 months
in the hospital.
No healthcare system is perfect, but a single payer system would be
significantly better than the healthcare feudalism we currently have in the US.
When it comes to healthcare we essentially face two ways of rationing it and
they are money and time. Single payer systems often use time to ration
healthcare, but our system uses money. I don't believe
healthcare should be treated like a commodity or it will eventually become
superior healthcare for some (the rich/elite) and garbage healthcare or no
healthcare for the rest of us (middle class and down).
..... absolutely. What ever you do, don't take any learnings from people
who have been doing it for 60 years now... what in the world could they know.
Lets keep bumbling along fighting donkeys and elephants, and not
fixing anything that would increase our global competitiveness. Other empires
have failed because they failed to respond to change... looks like we
haven't learned that lesson yet either.
More of the same inaccurate propaganda that the GOP has been pushing for how
long now? Readers need to carefully fact check claims made in this op ed.
@Mountanman"Europeans still pay about the same or more, except that
taxpayers pick up a much higher cost than we do (at least before
Obamacare)."Nope, they may pay more in taxation but it's
more than balanced out by their much much reduced individual/corporate payment
side of the equation. As a result they're paying 9-12% of GDP as a nation
on healthcare while we're spending 17.9% of GDP on healthcare. We're
paying a lot more than they are.
Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UTHere are per-capita
healthcare expenditures for several developed countries:USA 8235 Norway 5388Switzerland 5270Denmark 4464Canada 4445Germany 4338France 3975Sweden 3758Australia 3670======== Roland, please don't use things like
"facts", and "numbers" and "data".It
disrupts the conservative neighborhood of make-believe, and skews their
made up world of reality.
Here are per-capita healthcare expenditures for several developed countries:USA 8235 Norway 5388Switzerland 5270Denmark 4464Canada
4445Germany 4338France 3975Sweden 3758Australia 3670Getting our spending down to the level of Norway or Switzerland, the
next highest spenders, would be the equivalent of getting all of our defense
spending for free.Getting it down to the level of France or Germany would
eliminate most of our long term deficits. By any objective measure
all of these countries achieve better health outcomes than we do. So we
don't have to sacrifice quality to get lower costs. By the way, Switzerland
has the system that most fully resembles Obamacare. You might investigate it.
@ Roland, You are dead wrong (no pun intended) about Europeans paying less for
healthcare. Europeans still pay about the same or more, except that taxpayers
pick up a much higher cost than we do (at least before Obamacare). It just
depends on who is actually paying for it! Socialized medicine robs Peter to pay
for Paul's healthcare. Paul may like it but it doesn't make it better
for all the "Peters" who are forced to pay for something they will not
receive. Eventually, Peter will run out of money, like America, France, Greece,
Spain, Portugal, England, et al. Heck, even Sweden has been forced to cut back.
I think we're seeing the official end of workable ideas conservatives have
for addressing healthcare.Let's examine the Health Savings
Account idea.McDonalds, in attempting to help their employees manage
their finances, suggest such things as cutting up food portions for young
children into smaller pieces, turning down the heat, and getting a second
job.Conservatives have always pushed for parents to be engaged with
their childrens' educations, which is unquestionably a good idea. However,
if these young parents are working a second job in the evenings, how are they
supposed to help their kids with school work, let alone set up and contribute to
a Health Savings Account?Yet, the Deseret News laments the low birth
rate, and pushes for young couples to have children, apparently without
consideration for an emerging conservative "you're on your own"
social ideology. Can conservatives see any kind of link between
these issues, can you see serious conflicts and glaring infeasibilities in the
recommendations?My kids are grown. I got help from older people in
subsidizing their education, and my kids now help pay for my healthcare. This
isn't evil.It's called "life".
But the current system we have imposes rationing more than any single payer
system would. A lot of people are rationed right down to no care at all. We
don't deserve all the health care we want, if for no other reason than
it's unnecessary. We can make a single payer system work, and should.
So, this article reflects the opinions of "various
think-tanks".Picking and choosing which "think-tanks" is
called being "bias".Reading about "various
think-tanks" and actually living in one is different.BTW- Having
lived in Europe, Canada, Japan, and serving in the US military [also a socialist
system], I can testify that a single-payer Government regulated system is
by FAR better than what we have in the United States.
Despite the hysteria by conservatives surrounding the ACA things are starting to
improve. Enrollment is picking up steam, the website is improving, and states
like Washington, California, and Kentucky are off and running with their
exchanges.The fanatical Obama haters are so invested in the failure
of the ACA that as it starts to succeed they will be forced to ratchet up the
negative rhetoric.How about a little positive press on the ACA and a
little less mindless negativity. We want all Americans to have healthcare!
"They [Republicans]need to focus on such possible answers as vouchers for
catastrophic coverage, health savings accounts, curbing malpractice suits on a
state level, encouraging imitation of some first-class clinics and promoting
interstate health insurance competition." Trouble is, not of
these measures are a fix, not even close. To make health care work we have to
do what other advanced countries have done, namely spread risk over the entire
population. This requires one system which enrolls everybody. Now
as to medicare, it is in trouble because the FICA tax which supports it is
massively regressive - taxation stops and $113,000 of personal income. The fix
for medicare is a progressive FICA tax, tapping high incomes.
Europeans pay far less than we do and have healthier populations as a result. No
system is perfect, but ours is in many ways the worst in the rich countries.
There are a few treatments available here that are not available in Europe, but
they do not seem to make us healthier. It is largely a myth that Europeans have
to wait longer for care, in fact in many cases they can get care quicker than we
can.I'm willing to listen to any proposals, but the few things
suggested in this letter would come nowhere near solving our problems. Obamacare
does not solve all of our problems either, but it will be a small improvement
over the current system, and it can be upgraded as time goes by.