I will start by saying that I'm a Mormon, and I am very sad at the Deseret
News' choice of headline to describe a fine woman who was in the past my
neighbor, and the mother of my young daughter's best friend. Why on earth
choose those words to describe a woman of faith, when "normal human being
with a fiery sense of devotion and outreach" would have equally applied
(though so would roller-derby queen). The only purpose that could have been
intended was to draw a line for the largely LDS readers to say "she
isn't one of us' or, as at least one commenter has noted (to
paraphrase) "aren't you glad we don't have to do this." But oh
we as LDS would be blessed by having among us someone with the heart and
understanding Nadia has. I was blessed to have her for a neighbor.The Lord needs more people willing to meet people where they are, without
judgment, and to put forth the message -- faith in Christ will do you good -- in
a manner that people can hear it. Good for you, Nadia! You rock.
@ Ranch - Here, UT - "@gittalopctbi; "I am so thankful to be part of the
Lord's true church..." --- Pride cometh before the fall..."Correct, pride cometh before the fall.However.....what if it isn't
"pride" but simply "truth" 'gittalopctbi' is
proclaiming? Did Jesus proclaim truth? Why, yes He did. And He wasn't
bashful about proclaiming it as truth, either. As a matter of fact, it got Him
killed, remember?I have more for you, 'Ranch'.... You
said:"@The Rock; "You can look for the truth."" ---
"Truth" is subjective.""Truth is subjective"?Uhhh...actually, truth is not subjective.Truth....pure
truth....is not subjective ANYWHERE. It is not subjective in math, physics,
chemistry, biology, engineering disciplines, or even religion. Truth is not a
smorgasbord of "stuff" where you can simply pick and choose what you
want. Truth, as a wise man once said, is simply "things the way they really
are". That's it....the way things REALLY are.Try your
"truth is subjective" line of thinking when you stand up next to the
Creator."Well, God, despite what you say, I was actually a very
good person, no matter what you say. You see, truth is subjective, you
@albertinamel ... if you Googled her name and followed the links, you'd
find that DN couldn't possibly print her words. We're not talking
about the milder expletives one usually screams when hitting one's thumb
with a hammer. No, no, no. She uses language that would cause a drunken sailor
to blush. I'm sure you would be offended. Re.." Using
spiteful and cutting words to demean people, even without technically swearing,
is completely un-Christian in my book." There is nothing cruel, hypocritical
or demeaning about recognizing filth when filth is presented to you. It is
simply acknowledging what is.
@owlmaster2 ... Nobody here advocated not giving her food or drink if she needed
it, or refusing any other aid and assistance. Re. your
'judging' comment. Many who cannot or will not make critical
distinctions always fall back on 'I don't judge people.' #1...
Yes, he/she does, as you just did. #2... we are REQUIRED to judge those inside
the church, told to do so. It is those outside the church we are to leave alone.
See 1st Corinthians 5:11. No religion I know of requires its
followers to associate with the vulgar, inebriated, etc., in their state of
vulgarity or inebriation or whatever else is self-defeating. AA people call that
'enabling'. In a few places in the BoM, prophets walked away from
people determined to self-destruct. So does God. Many times He
turned his back and told the people, 'okay, then. Enjoy the ride to
perdition.' The idea that He loves everyone regardless of who/what they
are/do is just not scriptural.
I'm rather tired of Deseret News' highly subjective, sensationalist
headlines. This article labels this minister as "liberal" (implying
that's somehow unusual, unique, or undesirable) and "foul-mouthed"
without even quoting a single controversial sentence from her. I doubt that I
would find her language personally offensive. Dropping a few four-letter words
for rhetorical emphasis, to me, is not "foul" or offensive. Using
spiteful and cutting words to demean people, even without technically swearing,
is completely un-Christian in my book. So while the subjective headline grabs
your attention, the article really doesn't back up its claim that she is
"liberal" or "foul-mouthed," though it seems well established
that she does have at least one tattoo. I'll give the DN that one.
As a young missionary my companion and I dropped in on a Dutch Congregation
church in upstate NY. The Church was vibrant and towered over the community.
They had even come up with a home teaching and visiting teaching program, acts
of kindness abounded. We met their Pastor and he was full of the spirit of God.
He was excited and invited us to share with him a message for him. We proceeded
to teach him about the restoration and the prophet Joseph. The spirit was so
strong that we all had to pause because of the intensity of the Lord bearing
witness to him, and us, of the truthfulness of our message. We were speechless
when he asked why he was not told earlier in his life. The spirit instructed us
to tell him he had been a schoolmaster to this congregation. We never met with
him again. My conclusion is that there are people teaching the truth in pieces
warming others to the Gospel in its entirety. Let's not judge the mission
and burning that others experience and accept that the Lord works in mysterious
ways that are not our ways.
"I don't think a church that openly accepts (or promotes) sin is in the
best interest of its members, because "wickedness never was happiness."
However, every church should openly accept sinners, otherwise we'd all be
in trouble ("for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"). I
believe churches/religion exist to help sinners overcome/turn away from their
sins." from "Stop The Nonsense"I heartily agree! As it
has been said, churches should be hospitals for sinners, not country clubs for
saints. However, I cannot condone this woman's method of preaching, nor her
claim that what she is doing is in any way biblical. Indeed, I did not see the
Bible or Jesus Christ even mentioned in the descriptions of her, only her
methods of filling the pews. "Progressive," so-called, Christian
doctrine, dangerously detours away from Biblical truths, even as it sounds safe
and even good. The fact that this young lady feels she must use foul language
and unorthodox methods to "reach" people says it all. Billy Graham
preached the same basic Gospel message for over for over 60 years, reaching over
200 million people for Christ - and never uttered one could word.
Just like Isaiah, and Revelations tells it. She preaches the church of man.
I feel like this is just another one of those charismatic people who every 5-10
yrs shows up, writes a book, preaches a sermon, gathers a following and acts all
NEW and FRESH and then ossifies into the same-o same-o and becomes a business.
Calvary Chapel in CA started that way with Chuck Smith and his "Jesus
People" movement. All hippies and coolness. Now CC is a rigid, authoritarian
church that tells members they can't have unauthorized Bible studies in
their homes. Give this lady 10 more years (if it lasts that long) and
let's see where she ends up. Meanwhile, the Mormons and other conservative
churches will be chugging along into the next century.
@jawico;Of course truth is subjective.It is true that
Americans are the most patriotic people on the planet. It is also true that the
French are the most patriotic people on the planet. It is also true that
Argentinians are the most patriotic people on the planet. It just depends on
where you're from.It is true that there are many religions that
all claim to be the one true religion. To each one, theirs is the correct one.
That is called "subjective".You can't define ANY
religion as 100% absolute true because that is not provable, therefore it is
Something about getting the message in one's own language (The original 12
did it, to even their own surprise) -- and progression. I remember
being told about some kid (with an excruciatingly common name) not liking his
neighborhood churches, so he started his own. And I was further insulted by
someone wanting to send missionaries to me. Obviously, it was not
"my own language" at the time. If this lady is turning but
one soul towards the path, she is doing a good work.
It seems there are people whose opinions fall at both extremes of this issue and
who fail to see the common ground between them.As an active LDS
member with plenty of faults of my own, I admire that she is reaching out to
people who don't "fit the mold" of what we currently view as
religious people (something our church is working on, btw). A religion/social
movement in any form that encourages people to let God into their lives (people
who had otherwise shut Him out completely) is a good thing, in my opinion. As
opponents of a society that is becoming ever more God-less, can't we see
that she is on our side? Now we can discuss the issue of Good/Better/Best. I don't think a church that openly accepts (or promotes) sin is in
the best interest of its members, because "wickedness never was
happiness." However, every church should openly accept sinners, otherwise
we'd all be in trouble ("for all have sinned and come short of the
glory of God"). I believe churches/religion exist to help sinners
overcome/turn away from their sins.
I thought the teachings of the scriptures are intended to bring us closer to
God's standards. Not lower God's standards to man.
"As ye judge so shall ye be judged"."Love your
neighbor"."If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;
give him water to drink."Why don't you folks just cool your
jets and try to treat each other like you would like to be treated. Our
political atmosphere is full of hate and it seems the religious culture is as
well. I'm not a religious guy but I am disgusted with my neighbors,
(you) in the way you attack, degrade, demean and sling rocks in your anonymity
thinking you won't be discovered in who you really are. I'll bet your God whoever He or She is, is super proud of the way you
act.No wonder I don't attend any organized religion.
You're all the only true church and the only path to God. If that is true
then your God's are unfair and not trustworthy. God is the God
of ALL and loves ALL if indeed there is a God.
It is easy to run a Church that asks absolutly nothing of the people. I wonder
if she gets donations?
@RanchTruth is absolutely not subjective. What someone believes as
truth can certainly be subjective, but Truth by definition cannot possibly be
subjective.If someone does not believe they have found truth what is
the purpose continuing down that path? Whether it be Christianity, Judaism,
Budism, Paganism, Mormonism truth is not a respecter of persons and has no
concern with who is right. It is our responsibility to seek out truth because
Truth isn't going to seek us out.
"...Moving church meetings to the bar has helped reach out to a younger
crowd."Awesome, bar, beer, women - that's just the healthy
combinations where you will find GodAs much as those who go to the
bars to find acceptance of their ways, so as he religions who found no followers
except at bars - perfect match don't you think?
@ gittalopctbiWhich Church would that be?Because I belong to
the Greek Orthodox Church, and THAT is the true church....I don't see you
So what if she has tattoos?What's your point?
Re: "Nothing but man-made methods to market their churches."Some would say that they're all man made.Re: "I am so
thankful to be part of the Lord's true church ..."And those
who you consider to belong to "false" churches are no doubt also
thankful to be part of "the Lord's true church."Re:
"God does not need irreverent intoxicated people hanging around hoping they
might hear a word and jump on the wagon.""As Jesus was
having a meal in Matthew's house, many tax collectors and sinners came and
ate with Jesus and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this they said to his
disciples, 'Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and
sinners?' When Jesus heard this he said, 'Those who are healthy
don't need a physician, but those who are sick do.... For I did not come to
call the righteous, but sinners.'"Jesus was accused of
being a drunkard himself. "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they
say, 'Look at him, a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and
sinners!'" Would you not want him "hanging around," either?
I think it is great what she is doing. She is letting people come closer to
Jesus that we mormons are missing. We need to reach out to the poor, the wicked
and the downtrodden. They are our brothers and sisters regardless of their
lifestyles. If we truly believe that Jesus saves then it is better for them to
learn it from a foul mouthed tattooed liberal preacher than a three piece suit
wearing wealthy white guy.We may or may not have the truth but only
accepting people that are perfect is a very flawed system. May help people
have better lives but whatever means possible.Amen. (The amen was
sarcastic in case you did not get that)
Re: "For a part of American religion that’s been in a long, slow
institutional decline, this gives her major credibility."As Jim
Taranto would say, "Fox Butterfield, is that you?"
george of the jungle says:"Evil only triumphs when good people
do nothing."Not true. Evil triumphs when good people, thinking
they're doing good, actually do evil instead.
I admire her taking charge and going forth in her social movement but it is not
a religion it is a social movement. Disrespect, irreverence, foul mouthed and
lowering the standards so you can get people to meet your average standards does
not make it right. God has set standards and we need to rise to achieve them as
best we are able. God does not need irreverent intoxicated people hanging
around hoping they might hear a word and jump on the wagon. God wants us to
come up and be perfected and he has given us a way to do this; by following his
ordained Prophet. We do not need to lower our standards so the world will
accept us, we need to bring those people UP his commanded standards. If you
want to know the truth, do not hesitate to simply get on your knees and ask God
what he wants of you. He wants you to come home in glory trailing stars behind
you...In power and Glory sharing all he has with his Son our Savior.
@gittalopctbi;"I am so thankful to be part of the Lord's
true church..." --- Pride cometh before the fall...@The
Rock;"You can look for the truth." --- "Truth" is
subjective. You will never know for certain that what you have is "the
truth", all you'll ever have is a strong belief about it. Please stop
denigrating other religions by claiming they don't have "the
truth".The Genesis Project in Ogden is packed every Sunday.
I've never been inside, but driving past, it always amazes me how busy they
Evil only triumphs when good people do nothing.
Re: "For a part of American religion that’s been in a long, slow
institutional decline, this gives her major credibility."Yeah.
Kinda explains why that part of American Religion has been in a long, slow
Fortunately, we are free to choose our religion (or none, if so inclined) and
also to choose what church and religious leaders we will associate with.Although this person has an interesting life story, I would exercise my
free will choice and look elsewhere for a church leader and congregation.
There are two ways to look for a church:1. Look for a church that
you agree with and that agrees with you. It's great if the services are
really cool and entertaining.2. You can look for the truth. This
requires that a person humble them selves and prayerfully seek guidance. Once
you find the truth then there will be pain, growth and adjustment. If I disagree
with God, then it would be smart for me to change. It does not matter what I
believe, what matters is what God believes.
It's a different approach to what I see as largely a scam. Although she
seems a bit more in touch than the facade presented by most churches today.
They're mostly interested in revenue and keeping up appearances.
Nothing but man-made methods to market their churches. I am so thankful to be
part of the Lord's true church that has no problem with membership growth
because it just presents the truth.