Comments about ‘Clunker progressivism: To understand Obamacare debacle, remember 'cash for clunkers'’

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Published: Thursday, Nov. 7 2013 12:00 a.m. MST

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Mountanman
Hayden, ID

Liberals refuse to be judged on the outcome of their policies, only their intent matters. Detroit anyone?

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

What better way to stimulate the slumping car industry (and satisfy the Auto Workers Union that funded and organized your Presidential campaign) than to take people's old cars away and give them government money to buy NEW ones!!

It's a BRILLIANT plan!

And I have to admit that it is very mild compared to what modern Progressives in other countries would have done given this "crisis" and this "opportunity".

Be happy we have MILD "Progressives" in the United States. Some Progressives would not trust the people and give them a VOLUNTARY plan. They would just "force them to it" (because the masses are obviously too stupid to do it on their own) as Bill Maher, Michael Moore, and others have suggested Obama do on Healthcare and other issues.

Be glad this wasn't a forced confiscation of your older vehicles by the Progressive Gestapo, and they gave us an OPTION to give up our cars. I hope they are as merciful when they decide they need to act on Global Warming, or they decide we should not be allowed to have guns, our own private health insurance, trans-fats, non-diet sodas, etc!

At least this was voluntary!

samhill
Salt Lake City, UT

As George rightly points out, the warts accumulating on the face of this administration are so numerous they defy close examination, especially when those doing the examining are primarily other elements of the same governmental cabal (re: Attorney General Holder of the DOJ).

The only real remedy is, as it always is, in the hands of the ultimate power brokers in a democracy, the electorate. We are the ones (speaking collectively) who elected these bozos and it is only we who can find better alternatives. Which is the reason for my increasing concern about the degeneration of the electorate.

I greatly fear that what we are seeing in government is a fair representation of the declining integrity and general capability of the electorate as a whole. Consequently, as the citizenry degenerates, so does the government. This has a self-reinforcing degenerating effect with classic death-spiral implications that terrify me.

I hope and pray we can somehow pull ourselves out of this, cause no one else is going to.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

samhill,
I agree with you completely. But I don't see viable alternatives out there to replace current leaders.

Republicans are in such disapproval and disarray with half of them being Progressive-RINOs and the other half being Independent/Libertarian/villainous TeaPeople (who can't be organized enough to be effective, organizing Libertarians is known to be like herding cats).

I fear the more attention Libertarian candidates get... the more that weakens the Republican alternative and almost INSURES Democrat victory.

I don't see anybody I could enthusiastically vote for or realistically expect to win surfacing in the Republican Presidential hopefuls. I don't see any Republican who could win (not against Hillary or even a no-name Democrat).

Even IF the Republicans found a good candidate... Hispanics are now firmly against them, gays are firmly against them, black America won't vote for them, Women won't vote for them. All Democrats have to do is promise more stuff and more welfare and say that Republicans will take away all your government stuff... and they win hands down.

I would really like to see things change... but I honestly don't see any hope.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

Ummm....

Don't look now, but the program worked.
Chevrolet, Chrysler, and are still around.
And they repaid those loans, WITH interest.
[Ford didn't take the loans, but still benefited from the program.]

Mitt Romney wanted them to go bankrupt.
[most likely, so his fellow vulture capitalists could have bought them out for next to nothing, cut them up, and sold their assets to foreign investors.]

As it turns out,
Millions of Americans didn't loose their jobs,
Millions of Americans didn't loose their pentions,
and America's economic meltdown didn't get even worse than it already was.

Good?
No
Better than the alternative - Yes! By a long shot.

Now --
about that $3 Trillion dollars and 5,000 Americans wasted and lost in the Middle East....

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

LDSLib,
You may not be aware of this, but GM and Chrysler did eventually declare bankruptcy to get out of their crippling debt.

Google "Does bailout critic Romney deserve credit for Auto Rebound"...

This long quote from a CNN Money magazine article dated May 8, 2012...

"Romney is right that the 2009 bankruptcy reorganizations at GM and Chrysler played a major role in the turnarounds at those automakers. It allowed them to shed billions in debt, along with plants, workers, brands and dealerships they could no longer afford.

And he's correct that the automakers and the United Auto Workers union were initially opposed to the bankruptcy process, uncertain that the companies would survive what they expected could be months if not years in bankruptcy court. The federal bailout helped the bankruptcy process get done in about two months.

Conway said the idea of a managed bankruptcy was not unique at the time. "Romney might very well have had the idea, but it's not an idea no one else had on their own," Conway said"...

So... Somebody at CNN Money thinks Romney wasn't all wrong on this one. I'm sure you will never admit that.

UtahBlueDevil
Durham, NC

"Liberals refuse to be judged on the outcome of their policies, only their intent matters. Detroit anyone?"

How about after 8 years of "conservative" leadership... the US economy anyone" Housing market in free fall. Banks in disarray. Huge - no - massive subsidy of multiples of industries, unemployment rate in a free fall, stock market halved in value....

Detroit has been a wreck since the early oil embargo changed the automotive game, and the US companies failed to respond with reasonable product. People will live in places with high taxes if there are jobs - see New York and San Francisco.

2Bits... if the US government had not stepped in... there was no night in shinning armor at the time to save GM and Chrysler. Remember - the financial markets were in melt down. Equities had collapsed. There was no M&A going on at the time. That was the problem with Romney's plan... there was no capital outside of the government that could save them. There was no private money to spend.

So Romney was right on the idea - just not on the implementation... as there was no funds for his plan.

Red
San Antonia, TX

Their is no credibility in Government.

Why so many people line up to defend obama is crazy. I don't get it.

We are just a gigantic government ponzi scheme on ourselves.

Power to the People.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

Don't you just LOVE how conservatives keep trash talking America?

RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

To "LDS Liberal" but they did go bankrupt AFTER the bailouts. Read the article "Chrysler: From Bankrupt To A $6 Billion Company". You will find that after the bailout it went bankrupt, then was sliced up, and sold portions of it to a foreign company, Fiat.

As part of the bankruptcy Chrysler closed 789 dealerships. That means that about 40,000 people lost their jobs as a result of the bankruptcy that you claim didn't happen.

As for people losing their pensions, again, you are wrong. See the article "Lee Iacocca, Chrysler retirees sue over pension losses" in USA today.

Any other myths that you believe that need dispelling?

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

UtahBlueDevil,
RE: "How about after 8 years of "conservative" leadership... the US economy anyone" Housing market in free fall. Banks in disarray. Huge - no - massive subsidy of multiples of industries, unemployment rate in a free fall, stock market halved in value"...

You have a very selective memory of the Bush years. You remember ONE YEAR very well, But the Stock Market also hit it's all-time-high during the Bush years, and unemployment hit all time lows during the Bush years. You won't give him credit for that... will you? Only one year in the 8 is all that counts to you.

Conservative leadership got us through a pretty smooth stock market recovery after 9/11. Those all time highs came AFTER the natural downturn after 9/11. You won't give him credit for that either, will you?

You just twist and turn and spin things to make them reflect as bad as possible... That's what we called Bush-obsession back then. I guess it's hard to get rid of.

---

LDS Liberal
Re: "Don't you just LOVE how conservatives keep trash talking America"?

I remember people saying the exact same thing about Democrats during the Bush years.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

You have a very selective memory of the Bush years. You remember ONE YEAR very well, But the Stock Market also hit it's all-time-high during the Bush years, and unemployment hit all time lows during the Bush years. You won't give him credit for that... will you? Only one year in the 8 is all that counts to you.

========

No my memory is as sharp as ever --
and I remember GW Bush was spending all kinds of money he DIDN'T EVER have!

Why do you think was burning up causing that heat up super Nova flame out on the economy?

sad, because that also shows me that your memory only goes back 5 years to Obama's spending.

Nate
Pleasant Grove, UT

@2 bits "That's what we called Bush-obsession back then."

I remember a couple of writers were calling it BDS: Bush Derangement Syndrome. Apparently it has a long recovery time.

@LDS Liberal

Criticizing policy is not the same thing as trash talking America. When a plan fails, it fails. Let's find something better to do next time. Obama keeps trying the same old, discredited stuff.

UtahBlueDevil
Durham, NC

@2Bits... no... I am looking at the score of the game at the end... not the middle. What, you want to cherry pick out the and quarter of a game and call it a success? Please.

There is no doubt Detroit is a mess.... and yes, spending was a contributing factor in the problem. It isn't that companies stopped building cars in the US, they just stopped doing it in Michigan, and liberal over spending is a contributory factor to that.

But conservatives need to step up and realize and take responsibility once in a while as well. You brought up Detroit.... well, then lets look at track records, in the fullest. Not as you say cherry picking out dates. Lets look at the final score. Denial of responsibility seems to be a well honed skill. I didn't even mention the two series of "stimulus" checks that was sent out to everyone under Bush, except to those in my income bracket.

The problems with pieces like this is they don't explore the scenario had nothing been done - in any of the stimulus packages. Doing nothing also had a cost.... which was not discussed.

patriot
Cedar Hills, UT

To visualize the Obamacare debacle, view a utube of the Hindenburg disaster.

Ernest T. Bass
Bountiful, UT

Why do conservatives hate Americans so much that they want the majority of them to suffer?

pragmatistferlife
salt lake city, utah

"Even IF the Republicans found a good candidate... Hispanics are now firmly against them, gays are firmly against them, black America won't vote for them, Women won't vote for them. All Democrats have to do is promise more stuff and more welfare and say that Republicans will take away all your government stuff... and they win hands down."

No "bits" All Democrats have to do is say we aren't going to send home 12 million of you. All Democrats have to do is say your children brought here and raised here don't need to look over their shoulder all the time. All Democrats have to do is say women "you" get to have reasonable choices about your own body. All Democrats have to do is say we believe you shouldn't be fired from your job or denied housing because of who you are. All Democrats have to do is say we don't believe you should be stopped on the street and searched because of what you wearing or the color of your skin, and you certainly shouldn't be shot and killed for that.

Free stuff? I guess so.

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@2 bits
They only would survive bankruptcy with the infusion of capital they had from the bailout. The private sector wasn't going to generate those funds. So Romney was still wrong.

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@2bits
"Hispanics are now firmly against them, gays are firmly against them, black America won't vote for them, Women won't vote for them. All Democrats have to do is promise more stuff and more welfare"

So... Hispanic, black, homosexual, and women Americans are lazy moochers?

"Republicans are in such disapproval and disarray with half of them being Progressive-RINOs"

If half of Republicans or even a quarter of Republicans were Progressive then I'd like them a lot more but they aren't. Turns out Progressive doesn't mean "supports things 2bits doesn't like".

@patriot
"To visualize the Obamacare debacle, view a utube of the Hindenburg disaster."

Or the Medicare Part D rollout (where Republicans in congress urged for patience since implementing these programs takes time) or the Romneycare rollout which only signed up 2k people the first month.

Badgerbadger
Murray, UT

Cash for clunkers, a great program?

A relative tried to cash in his gas guzzling 1986 Crown Victoria station wagon. It didn't qualify, so he is still driving it.

If that old car isn't a clunker, I don't know what is.

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