To "atl134" but they are, contrary to the MSM and your liberal masters.
Progressives look to the government for solutions. Just look at Bush's
term, whenever there was a problem he looked to government solving it. Medicare
part D, TARP, and so forth are all progressive, big government ideas. The only
difference between the GOP and the Democrats is the rate at which they are
moving towards socialism.The mainstream Republican establishment are
Progressives. Just look at McCain or Hatch. They go for the government fix
before they let individuals fix the problem either in their neighborhoods or
through the free market.
@RedshirtUofU" but political philosophy. It is the Progressives in the
GOP and Democrat party that are killing the constitution."Contrary to the beliefs of people like you and Glenn Beck, mainstream
Republican establishment types are not Progressives... at all. @2bits"They instead said they would use continual investigations
(using their congressional oversight role), endless hearings, justice department
probes, impeachment proceedings, etc, instead.""Continual
investigation" is Darrell Issa's middle name...
atl134,Filibuster is not the only way to block things. It's the
correct way (the way provided in the Senate Rules). It's just not the way
Democrats picked when Bush was elected. They instead said they would use
continual investigations (using their congressional oversight role), endless
hearings, justice department probes, impeachment proceedings, etc, instead.Budget:The House not passing the Senate budget bill (and visa
versa) is not treason. Senate and House not passing each other's bills
happens all the time! It's just that Obama's landmark legislation
was involved this time, and the consequences were so highly publicized and
criticized by the media in this case. But it's the way Congress works,
and the reason the Founding Fathers had TWO houses in Congress. I think they
expected them to check each other from time to time. But I think they expected
compromise when conflicts like this happen (which neither side would do in this
case).As for Medicare Part D... read the "Legislative
history" section in Wikipedia. Democrats (and some Republicans) were
trying to block it right to the end. It took some arm twisting to get the
To "JoeBlow" it isn't the parties that you should be concerned
with, but political philosophy. It is the Progressives in the GOP and Democrat
party that are killing the constitution.Remember that it was the
Democrats that didn't want to be outdone by failed programs, so they have
given us bigger programs that will fail. NCLB was a huge failure, so the
Democrats decided to make it bigger, more expensive, and more intrusive with
Common Core. Medicare Part D didn't add enough to the debt and didn't
harm enough citizens, so the Democrats gave us the ACA.Why follow
politicians that are Progressives and are working to make the government bigger
and more intrusive?
"When one party stands for the Constitution and the other party stands for
dissolution of the Constitution, who would ever support those that want to strip
us of our Constitution?"Seriously Mike?You think the
GOP "stands for the Constitution"?Since when did that start
happening?Was it when they championed No Child Left Behind?Or
was it when they pushed Medicare Part D?Those were voted for by
Boehner, McConnell, Paul Ryan and most others that are still in congress
today.If you were honest about supporting the Constitution, you
would have been for Ron Paul long before you would side with the GOP.Something smells funny here.
"When one party stands for the Constitution and the other party stands for
dissolution of the Constitution.....blah, blah, blah..." One
party stands for the constitution. Wow. "Obama does not
believe in rules."..... and rendition... what part of the constitution
covers that practice? What part of the constitution covers selling drugs to
fund weapons to the Taliban? Mike, your failure to even consider
that both parties have been culpable of pushing constitutional limits shows that
you are not really academically considering these issues, and that your
arguments are purely emotional. We can go back and forth citing inaccuracies
stated by both sides.... pretending one side only has done this just shows a
willingness to turn a blind eye.... and not holding both sides to the same
standards. Doing so does no one any good.
@2bits"Do you not remember Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi pledging to
block ANYTHING the Bush Administration proposed and to tie the government up in
continuous investigations after Bush was elected? I do"And when
Medicare Part D passed Democrats didn't whine and try and sabotage it, they
worked to help it get implemented better. By the way... how many filibusters
were there in 2001-2006 compared to 2011-2012? If Democrats REALLY were trying
to block things as much as Republicans currently do then the per year filibuster
(cloture vote) rate should be similar right? Nope, Republicans are using it more
than twice as often as Democrats did against Bush.
When one party stands for the Constitution and the other party stands for
dissolution of the Constitution, who would ever support those that want to strip
us of our Constitution?We need opposing points of view so that we
clearly understand the issues. Now we can clearly see that Obama and those who
support him believe in things that are antithetical to America. They want to
legislate from the White House. They want the President to pick and choose
which laws he will enforce. They want a President who will blatantly lie to the
citizens as he tells them that they can keep their insurance, their doctors and
that health-care insurance will be reduced by $2,500 per family per year. They
have no use for law and order. They want some rich guy to pay for their
personal welfare.Opposition in politics assumes that everyone is
abiding by the rules and that those points that need to be discussed are within
the rules. Obama does not believe in rules. He believes that he, the
President, has the right and the authority to make rules because he knows what
is "best" for us. Some foolish people believe him.
The US is on a path to bankruptcy. The amount of spending is unsustainable
given economic conditions in the foreseeable future. Kicking the can, can only
go on for so long.
JoeBlow,I think we just need to be consistent. If it was OK to be the
block everything party back when Democrats were doing it... then you can't
really flip out about it now (regardless of the tactic used, sending budget
proposals you know the Senate won't accept (Republican), or endless legal
investigations to keep the Congress to busy to act on anything (Democrat).Both do the same thing (keep the government from being able to do
it's business).If you didn't criticize it back then...
then I have to call BS when you cry about it now.I agree that
neither Bush or Obama have done anything impeachable. But you haven't seen
Republicans submit actual impeachment papers on Obama. Democrats did several
times. Google "efforts to impeach Bush"... Wikipedia "The most
significant of these efforts occurred on June 10, 2008, when Congressman Dennis
Kucinich, along with co-sponsor Robert Wexler, introduced 35 articles of
impeachment  against Bush to the U.S. House of Representatives"...Now... if you were OK with that. Why?It kinda makes all the
Democrat weeping about Republicans blocking Obama's signature legislation
seem like crocodile tears.
@MountanmanHayden, ID@ LDS Liberal. How much money were the
Democrats forced pay Ted Cruz, Mike Lee and the GOP as a result of their
"extortion" as you claim? ======== I can't
help your reading comprehension skills -- it appears you are the only one
filtering that definition in terms of money.definition #2, under the law
clearly states -- "or some other thing of value by the abuse of one's
office or authority." Ted Cruz and Mike Lee did just that.Hence -- meeting both the english and legal definitions and qualification of
Extortion.ex-tor-tion Spelled [ik-stawr-shuhn] noun 1.
an act or instance of extorting. 2. Law. the crime of obtaining money OR
some other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or authority. 3. oppressive or illegal exaction, as of excessive price or interest: the
extortions of usurers. 4. anything extorted. No wonder the
Tea-Party and the GOP's approval numbers are tanking!
2bits.We can always find the wing nuts on both sides.The
question should not be "did some on the left do it back then?"The question should be "what did I do"I feel that it was
ludicrous to suggest that Bush did anything "impeachable"Same with
Obama. He has done nothing close.Any attempt to use the debt ceiling as a
bargaining tool is wrong. EVERY time, R or D.I can only speak for
myself. But many use past remarks of other as an excuse for their "crazy
talk". That does not fly. I cannot be responsible for the
words of others. I am however, responsible for my words.
Reading these comments, these posters must have been born 6 years ago, or they
just tuned into politics about the time Obama came along.Do you not
remember Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi pledging to block ANYTHING the Bush
Administration proposed and to tie the government up in continuous
investigations after Bush was elected? I do. Google "AP: Democrats pledge
array of investigations"... or "GOP legislators pledge to investigate
(Boston Globe)", Google "Efforts to impeach George W. Bush
(Wikipedia)"... and read about it if you don't gave a memory long
enough to remember when the Democrats were in the minority and pledging to
shutdown the government and anything the Bush administration tried to do.Now... if you were posting these same comments back then (and not just
now)... THEN I will listen to you. Problem is... the same people who complain
now SUPPORTED it back then. That's called "Hypocrisy".
ok liberals, lets get this clear. Lee and others like him are just doing what
Hilary Clinton preached back in 2006. She said that it is our patriotic duty to
stand in opposition to policies that the government is trying to impose that we
do not agree with.So, either Lee and others like him are patriotic
(according to Hilary Clinton) or Clinton is a liar and should be chased out of
politics for the damage that her lies have caused.
The opposition you refer to is really obstruction. It is going outside the
democratic lawmaking process and forcing your agenda through the threat of
government shutdown and financial default. What is hypocritical is that people
like Mike Lee claim to be experts on and defenders of the Constitution, yet will
use methods outside the Constitution's legislative powers. If you want to
prevail get a Republican candidate elected president in 2016, keep the
Republican majority in the House and gain a Republican majority in the Senate.
@ LDS Liberal. How much money were the Democrats forced pay Ted Cruz, Mike Lee
and the GOP as a result of their "extortion" as you claim? Ridiculous
and irrational accusations from liberals who do not want Obama held accountable
for anything! How dare anyone ask Obama for honestly? How dare they demand
accountability? No wonder Obama's approval numbers are tanking!
The State of Utah could use some of that opposition. In spite of what Mountanman
has said, the GOP has taken opposition to a historic and unprecedented level
especially on policy they created themselves.
What the GOP and especially the tea party do not understand is that opposition
is not an agenda for governing. Please, GOP, come up with some fresh ideas that
will not bankrupt the country or send us into immediate recession (so far you
haven't done this). The GOP has made its identity the anti-Obama party. But
what is it for? As far as I can tell, they favor a deregulated corpocracy that
will send inequality through the roof and quickly flip Mitt's infamous 47
percent into 74 percent.
Once again, Mountanman cherry pecks definitions to further his agenda, and
STILL gets it wrong.ex-tor-tion Spelled [ik-stawr-shuhn] noun
1. an act or instance of extorting. 2. Law. the crime of obtaining
money or some other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or
authority. 3. oppressive or illegal exaction, as of excessive price or
interest: the extortions of usurers. 4. anything extorted. And YES, Mike Lee and Ted Cruz and the rest used EXTORTION as a means to
get what their votes could not.BTW -- The shutdown could not
possibly be President Obama's fault.Why?Because he never even
got the bill, Let alone had a chance to VETO it.And even IF he
did veto it, Congress can always over-ride anything he VETOs....per
the Constitution.Lee and Cruz were TRAMPLING the Constitution,
Very good letter, with the typical litany of leftist excuse making, both for
themselves and their sad sack prez. The constitution itself is a force that
insures we have a country that is not ruled by a true democracy. It oversee
certain rights, that may be contrary to the opinion of the majority. The GOP has
not done anything unconstitutional. Whiny leftists may not like what they did,
but grow up. Cut the apron strings that attach you to your (mommy) government,
in which you have placed so much dependence. Most people in the real world
portions of the country, were completely unaffected by the government shut down.
You could have been smart enough to pull the same stunt when Bush was prez, but
you weren't. Besides, most of the country favored the war on terrorism, you
wouldn't have dared.
Principled opposition is a good thing. Throwing a tantrum is less so, and
that's what we've been seeing out of the republicans.
"The GOP has no power to extort anything from Obama. "Probably one of the silliest comments i have seen in a long time. We can
easily see logic has exited the discussion and we are now running on pure
emotion. Claiming the House of Representatives" has no power... just not
based on anything reasonable or factual.Opposition is a good
thing... but it is only half way there..... opposition without an alternative
solution is pointless and does no one any good. A brainless person can run
around and oppose things. Opposition with an alternative proposition is the
only thing that drives true solutions.Enough with opposition....
lets see some actual leadership... and less gamesmanship.
Some honest questions for youDo you feel that the debt ceiling is
the proper venue to change existing laws?Would debt ceiling talks under
Bush been the proper avenue to push to end the Bush tax cuts, or stop the Iraq
war?Using the debt ceiling to change law IS like extortion. I used your definition of extortion, only omitting those things that
were not applicable.the crime of obtaining something (such as
stopping a law you don't like) from somebody by using threats, or other
@ Roland. "Extortion" Really? Now opposition and open debate is called
extortion? Definition of extortion (n)ex·tor·tion[
ik stáwrsh'n ]1.obtaining something by illegal threats: the
crime of obtaining something such as money or information from somebody by using
force, threats, or other unacceptable methods.The GOP has no power
to extort anything from Obama. If you claim the GOP used extortion, what would
you call what Obama and the Democrats have done with Obamacare? I am proud of
the GOP for standing up to Obama. How dare anyone demand HE be accountable? How
Good letter, Sam. Opposition serves a very important purpose in our government.
Even when not victorious it brings out vital information on issues that helps
the public to better understand them just as you pointed out with the Obamacare
issue. It is unfortunate that a similar understanding was not brought out prior
to passage of the bill.You also mentioned the possibility of news
laws being made overnight without being challenged or checked. My opinion is
that has already been done far too much with Obama's Executive decrees and
orders. Other presidents have all done these things on a very limited basis but
our present president has used these methods to change far too many things
without any advice from congress. It seems to go on unchecked and unchallenged.
It's not just "the other Party" they oppose.They are now even
"opposing" and throwing other Republicans under the bus!It's
like they "oppose" just for opposition's sake.And YES,
that is extremeist.
@Mountanman: Republicans did not want President Obama to negotiate, they wanted
him to submit to extortion. Had the President signed an emergency funding
mandate, as you suggest, you GOP buddies would have impeached him.
It was Obama who said he will not negotiate! Obama will not tolerate ANY
opposition. Some honest questions; did Obama shut down the government in a
temper tantrum rant? Will Obama compromise? Will Obama lead this nation or will
he have more temper tantrums? Before you tell me the GOP house would not fund
the government, remember that Obama has executive privilege and all he had to do
was sign an emergency funding mandate but he didn't! Why? So he could blame
it on the GOP as he always has!
I agree that opposition is good. But the opposition we have today goes beyond
anything we have seen in this country since the Civil War. They filibuster even
people they approve of, for the simple reason that, without leadership, federal
departments can't function. If they don't function, it makes the
president look bad.They threaten to send the country into default
and wreck the world economy if they can't have their way. Yet the same
people who say they revere the constitution, refuse to believe what a truly
radical and unconstitutional idea this is.
There is a difference between screaming "NO!" to everything the other
party does, and offering workable counterproposals. The only thing
the GOP offers our country is irrational and belligerent opposition to President
Obama. Period. Ask Republicans how they would go about fixing our
dysfunctional healthcare financing system, or our crumbling infrastructure, our
creaking economy, or our wildly unfair tax policies, and you'll only hear
vague and contradictory word salad.
So when we have a Republican President and a Democratic Congress resisting his
will, we will remember that opposition is good then as well, true?
Opposition in our government is good because it checks the power. If we
didn’t have opposition, new laws could be made almost overnight,
unchallenged and unchecked.======== I hope he then
appreciates those of us who oppose Republicans in Utah for the exact same
It is one thing to have an opposition party, it is a radical thing to oppose
government by trying to stop it from functioning to gain minority advantage or
for political points. The tea party was taught a lesson about this recently.
If the GOP was merely sticking to their principles then they'd be the #1
fans of Obamacare. Remember, Obama didn't create Obamacare, the
Republicans did. Obama wanted a single payer system.
Opposition in sticking to your principles is one thing.However,
shutting down the government and waving the Confederate flag because you
don't have enough votes to overturn a law is something completely
different. Remember now, Mitch McConnell himself stated that his job was to make
Obama a one-term President. Gee, I thought it was to represent
Americans and to help our country progress?
"Opposition in our government is good because it checks the power."Legitimate, Opposing viewpoints are healthy.But, Sam, that
is not what we have today for the most part. We have opposition for the
sake of opposition. And it happens in any and every political situation.Our countries leaders are more intent on opposing every idea from the
other side than they are to look for good solutions and ideas.And,
we follow along like sheep. We actually now WANT our politicians to be that
way. We are that way. No idea from the other side is good. The
intensity of the partisan support is mind boggling. On both the left and the
right.We put party over country. And we have been convinced that it is
Patriotism.We need to wake up people. And we better wake up