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Letter: Support opposition

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  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Nov. 7, 2013 7:19 a.m.

    To "atl134" but they are, contrary to the MSM and your liberal masters. Progressives look to the government for solutions. Just look at Bush's term, whenever there was a problem he looked to government solving it. Medicare part D, TARP, and so forth are all progressive, big government ideas. The only difference between the GOP and the Democrats is the rate at which they are moving towards socialism.

    The mainstream Republican establishment are Progressives. Just look at McCain or Hatch. They go for the government fix before they let individuals fix the problem either in their neighborhoods or through the free market.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 6:52 p.m.

    @RedshirtUofU
    " but political philosophy. It is the Progressives in the GOP and Democrat party that are killing the constitution."

    Contrary to the beliefs of people like you and Glenn Beck, mainstream Republican establishment types are not Progressives... at all.

    @2bits
    "They instead said they would use continual investigations (using their congressional oversight role), endless hearings, justice department probes, impeachment proceedings, etc, instead."

    "Continual investigation" is Darrell Issa's middle name...

  • 2 bit Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 9:24 a.m.

    atl134,
    Filibuster is not the only way to block things. It's the correct way (the way provided in the Senate Rules). It's just not the way Democrats picked when Bush was elected. They instead said they would use continual investigations (using their congressional oversight role), endless hearings, justice department probes, impeachment proceedings, etc, instead.

    Budget:
    The House not passing the Senate budget bill (and visa versa) is not treason. Senate and House not passing each other's bills happens all the time! It's just that Obama's landmark legislation was involved this time, and the consequences were so highly publicized and criticized by the media in this case. But it's the way Congress works, and the reason the Founding Fathers had TWO houses in Congress. I think they expected them to check each other from time to time. But I think they expected compromise when conflicts like this happen (which neither side would do in this case).

    As for Medicare Part D... read the "Legislative history" section in Wikipedia. Democrats (and some Republicans) were trying to block it right to the end. It took some arm twisting to get the votes.

  • RedShirtUofU Andoria, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 8:57 a.m.

    To "JoeBlow" it isn't the parties that you should be concerned with, but political philosophy. It is the Progressives in the GOP and Democrat party that are killing the constitution.

    Remember that it was the Democrats that didn't want to be outdone by failed programs, so they have given us bigger programs that will fail. NCLB was a huge failure, so the Democrats decided to make it bigger, more expensive, and more intrusive with Common Core. Medicare Part D didn't add enough to the debt and didn't harm enough citizens, so the Democrats gave us the ACA.

    Why follow politicians that are Progressives and are working to make the government bigger and more intrusive?

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Nov. 5, 2013 6:56 p.m.

    "When one party stands for the Constitution and the other party stands for dissolution of the Constitution, who would ever support those that want to strip us of our Constitution?"

    Seriously Mike?

    You think the GOP "stands for the Constitution"?

    Since when did that start happening?

    Was it when they championed No Child Left Behind?
    Or was it when they pushed Medicare Part D?

    Those were voted for by Boehner, McConnell, Paul Ryan and most others that are still in congress today.

    If you were honest about supporting the Constitution, you would have been for Ron Paul long before you would side with the GOP.

    Something smells funny here.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 5, 2013 6:16 p.m.

    "When one party stands for the Constitution and the other party stands for dissolution of the Constitution.....blah, blah, blah..."

    One party stands for the constitution. Wow.

    "Obama does not believe in rules."..... and rendition... what part of the constitution covers that practice? What part of the constitution covers selling drugs to fund weapons to the Taliban?

    Mike, your failure to even consider that both parties have been culpable of pushing constitutional limits shows that you are not really academically considering these issues, and that your arguments are purely emotional. We can go back and forth citing inaccuracies stated by both sides.... pretending one side only has done this just shows a willingness to turn a blind eye.... and not holding both sides to the same standards. Doing so does no one any good.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 6:07 p.m.

    @2bits
    "Do you not remember Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi pledging to block ANYTHING the Bush Administration proposed and to tie the government up in continuous investigations after Bush was elected? I do"

    And when Medicare Part D passed Democrats didn't whine and try and sabotage it, they worked to help it get implemented better. By the way... how many filibusters were there in 2001-2006 compared to 2011-2012? If Democrats REALLY were trying to block things as much as Republicans currently do then the per year filibuster (cloture vote) rate should be similar right? Nope, Republicans are using it more than twice as often as Democrats did against Bush.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Nov. 5, 2013 4:46 p.m.

    When one party stands for the Constitution and the other party stands for dissolution of the Constitution, who would ever support those that want to strip us of our Constitution?

    We need opposing points of view so that we clearly understand the issues. Now we can clearly see that Obama and those who support him believe in things that are antithetical to America. They want to legislate from the White House. They want the President to pick and choose which laws he will enforce. They want a President who will blatantly lie to the citizens as he tells them that they can keep their insurance, their doctors and that health-care insurance will be reduced by $2,500 per family per year. They have no use for law and order. They want some rich guy to pay for their personal welfare.

    Opposition in politics assumes that everyone is abiding by the rules and that those points that need to be discussed are within the rules. Obama does not believe in rules. He believes that he, the President, has the right and the authority to make rules because he knows what is "best" for us. Some foolish people believe him.

  • Mark l SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 4:10 p.m.

    The US is on a path to bankruptcy. The amount of spending is unsustainable given economic conditions in the foreseeable future. Kicking the can, can only go on for so long.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 3:21 p.m.

    JoeBlow,
    I think we just need to be consistent. If it was OK to be the block everything party back when Democrats were doing it... then you can't really flip out about it now (regardless of the tactic used, sending budget proposals you know the Senate won't accept (Republican), or endless legal investigations to keep the Congress to busy to act on anything (Democrat).

    Both do the same thing (keep the government from being able to do it's business).

    If you didn't criticize it back then... then I have to call BS when you cry about it now.

    I agree that neither Bush or Obama have done anything impeachable. But you haven't seen Republicans submit actual impeachment papers on Obama. Democrats did several times. Google "efforts to impeach Bush"... Wikipedia "The most significant of these efforts occurred on June 10, 2008, when Congressman Dennis Kucinich, along with co-sponsor Robert Wexler, introduced 35 articles of impeachment [1] against Bush to the U.S. House of Representatives"...

    Now... if you were OK with that. Why?

    It kinda makes all the Democrat weeping about Republicans blocking Obama's signature legislation seem like crocodile tears.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Nov. 5, 2013 2:03 p.m.

    @Mountanman
    Hayden, ID
    @ LDS Liberal. How much money were the Democrats forced pay Ted Cruz, Mike Lee and the GOP as a result of their "extortion" as you claim?

    ========

    I can't help your reading comprehension skills --
    it appears you are the only one filtering that definition in terms of money.
    definition #2, under the law clearly states -- "or some other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or authority."

    Ted Cruz and Mike Lee did just that.
    Hence -- meeting both the english and legal definitions and qualification of Extortion.

    ex-tor-tion Spelled [ik-stawr-shuhn]
    noun
    1. an act or instance of extorting.
    2. Law. the crime of obtaining money OR some other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or authority.
    3. oppressive or illegal exaction, as of excessive price or interest: the extortions of usurers.
    4. anything extorted.

    No wonder the Tea-Party and the GOP's approval numbers are tanking!

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Nov. 5, 2013 1:45 p.m.

    2bits.

    We can always find the wing nuts on both sides.

    The question should not be "did some on the left do it back then?"

    The question should be "what did I do"

    I feel that it was ludicrous to suggest that Bush did anything "impeachable"
    Same with Obama. He has done nothing close.
    Any attempt to use the debt ceiling as a bargaining tool is wrong. EVERY time, R or D.

    I can only speak for myself. But many use past remarks of other as an excuse for their "crazy talk". That does not fly.

    I cannot be responsible for the words of others. I am however, responsible for my words.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 1:29 p.m.

    Reading these comments, these posters must have been born 6 years ago, or they just tuned into politics about the time Obama came along.

    Do you not remember Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi pledging to block ANYTHING the Bush Administration proposed and to tie the government up in continuous investigations after Bush was elected? I do. Google "AP: Democrats pledge array of investigations"... or "GOP legislators pledge to investigate (Boston Globe)", Google "Efforts to impeach George W. Bush (Wikipedia)"... and read about it if you don't gave a memory long enough to remember when the Democrats were in the minority and pledging to shutdown the government and anything the Bush administration tried to do.

    Now... if you were posting these same comments back then (and not just now)... THEN I will listen to you. Problem is... the same people who complain now SUPPORTED it back then. That's called "Hypocrisy".

  • RedShirtUofU Andoria, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 12:51 p.m.

    ok liberals, lets get this clear. Lee and others like him are just doing what Hilary Clinton preached back in 2006. She said that it is our patriotic duty to stand in opposition to policies that the government is trying to impose that we do not agree with.

    So, either Lee and others like him are patriotic (according to Hilary Clinton) or Clinton is a liar and should be chased out of politics for the damage that her lies have caused.

  • nonceleb Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 12:23 p.m.

    The opposition you refer to is really obstruction. It is going outside the democratic lawmaking process and forcing your agenda through the threat of government shutdown and financial default. What is hypocritical is that people like Mike Lee claim to be experts on and defenders of the Constitution, yet will use methods outside the Constitution's legislative powers. If you want to prevail get a Republican candidate elected president in 2016, keep the Republican majority in the House and gain a Republican majority in the Senate.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 5, 2013 11:57 a.m.

    @ LDS Liberal. How much money were the Democrats forced pay Ted Cruz, Mike Lee and the GOP as a result of their "extortion" as you claim? Ridiculous and irrational accusations from liberals who do not want Obama held accountable for anything! How dare anyone ask Obama for honestly? How dare they demand accountability? No wonder Obama's approval numbers are tanking!

  • ugottabkidn Sandy, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 11:55 a.m.

    The State of Utah could use some of that opposition. In spite of what Mountanman has said, the GOP has taken opposition to a historic and unprecedented level especially on policy they created themselves.

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 10:44 a.m.

    What the GOP and especially the tea party do not understand is that opposition is not an agenda for governing. Please, GOP, come up with some fresh ideas that will not bankrupt the country or send us into immediate recession (so far you haven't done this). The GOP has made its identity the anti-Obama party. But what is it for? As far as I can tell, they favor a deregulated corpocracy that will send inequality through the roof and quickly flip Mitt's infamous 47 percent into 74 percent.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 10:01 a.m.

    Once again,
    Mountanman cherry pecks definitions to further his agenda, and STILL gets it wrong.

    ex-tor-tion Spelled [ik-stawr-shuhn]
    noun
    1. an act or instance of extorting.
    2. Law. the crime of obtaining money or some other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or authority.
    3. oppressive or illegal exaction, as of excessive price or interest: the extortions of usurers.
    4. anything extorted.

    And YES,
    Mike Lee and Ted Cruz and the rest used EXTORTION as a means to get what their votes could not.

    BTW --
    The shutdown could not possibly be President Obama's fault.
    Why?
    Because he never even got the bill,
    Let alone had a chance to VETO it.

    And even IF he did veto it,
    Congress can always over-ride anything he VETOs....
    per the Constitution.

    Lee and Cruz were TRAMPLING the Constitution, period.

  • HaHaHaHa Othello, WA
    Nov. 5, 2013 9:58 a.m.

    Very good letter, with the typical litany of leftist excuse making, both for themselves and their sad sack prez. The constitution itself is a force that insures we have a country that is not ruled by a true democracy. It oversee certain rights, that may be contrary to the opinion of the majority. The GOP has not done anything unconstitutional. Whiny leftists may not like what they did, but grow up. Cut the apron strings that attach you to your (mommy) government, in which you have placed so much dependence. Most people in the real world portions of the country, were completely unaffected by the government shut down. You could have been smart enough to pull the same stunt when Bush was prez, but you weren't. Besides, most of the country favored the war on terrorism, you wouldn't have dared.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 9:52 a.m.

    Principled opposition is a good thing. Throwing a tantrum is less so, and that's what we've been seeing out of the republicans.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 5, 2013 9:28 a.m.

    "The GOP has no power to extort anything from Obama. "

    Probably one of the silliest comments i have seen in a long time. We can easily see logic has exited the discussion and we are now running on pure emotion. Claiming the House of Representatives" has no power... just not based on anything reasonable or factual.

    Opposition is a good thing... but it is only half way there..... opposition without an alternative solution is pointless and does no one any good. A brainless person can run around and oppose things. Opposition with an alternative proposition is the only thing that drives true solutions.

    Enough with opposition.... lets see some actual leadership... and less gamesmanship.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Nov. 5, 2013 9:20 a.m.

    Some honest questions for you

    Do you feel that the debt ceiling is the proper venue to change existing laws?
    Would debt ceiling talks under Bush been the proper avenue to push to end the Bush tax cuts, or stop the Iraq war?

    Using the debt ceiling to change law IS like extortion.

    I used your definition of extortion, only omitting those things that were not applicable.

    the crime of obtaining something (such as stopping a law you don't like) from somebody by using threats, or other unacceptable methods.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 5, 2013 8:59 a.m.

    @ Roland. "Extortion" Really? Now opposition and open debate is called extortion?
    Definition of extortion (n)
    ex·tor·tion
    [ ik stáwrsh'n ]
    1.obtaining something by illegal threats: the crime of obtaining something such as money or information from somebody by using force, threats, or other unacceptable methods.

    The GOP has no power to extort anything from Obama. If you claim the GOP used extortion, what would you call what Obama and the Democrats have done with Obamacare? I am proud of the GOP for standing up to Obama. How dare anyone demand HE be accountable? How dare they?

  • watchman Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 8:54 a.m.

    Good letter, Sam. Opposition serves a very important purpose in our government. Even when not victorious it brings out vital information on issues that helps the public to better understand them just as you pointed out with the Obamacare issue. It is unfortunate that a similar understanding was not brought out prior to passage of the bill.

    You also mentioned the possibility of news laws being made overnight without being challenged or checked. My opinion is that has already been done far too much with Obama's Executive decrees and orders. Other presidents have all done these things on a very limited basis but our present president has used these methods to change far too many things without any advice from congress. It seems to go on unchecked and unchallenged.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 8:47 a.m.

    It's not just "the other Party" they oppose.
    They are now even "opposing" and throwing other Republicans under the bus!
    It's like they "oppose" just for opposition's sake.

    And YES, that is extremeist.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 8:42 a.m.

    @Mountanman: Republicans did not want President Obama to negotiate, they wanted him to submit to extortion. Had the President signed an emergency funding mandate, as you suggest, you GOP buddies would have impeached him.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 5, 2013 8:34 a.m.

    It was Obama who said he will not negotiate! Obama will not tolerate ANY opposition. Some honest questions; did Obama shut down the government in a temper tantrum rant? Will Obama compromise? Will Obama lead this nation or will he have more temper tantrums? Before you tell me the GOP house would not fund the government, remember that Obama has executive privilege and all he had to do was sign an emergency funding mandate but he didn't! Why? So he could blame it on the GOP as he always has!

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 8:19 a.m.

    I agree that opposition is good. But the opposition we have today goes beyond anything we have seen in this country since the Civil War. They filibuster even people they approve of, for the simple reason that, without leadership, federal departments can't function. If they don't function, it makes the president look bad.

    They threaten to send the country into default and wreck the world economy if they can't have their way. Yet the same people who say they revere the constitution, refuse to believe what a truly radical and unconstitutional idea this is.

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 7:37 a.m.

    There is a difference between screaming "NO!" to everything the other party does, and offering workable counterproposals.

    The only thing the GOP offers our country is irrational and belligerent opposition to President Obama. Period.

    Ask Republicans how they would go about fixing our dysfunctional healthcare financing system, or our crumbling infrastructure, our creaking economy, or our wildly unfair tax policies, and you'll only hear vague and contradictory word salad.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Nov. 5, 2013 7:11 a.m.

    So when we have a Republican President and a Democratic Congress resisting his will, we will remember that opposition is good then as well, true?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 6:59 a.m.

    Opposition in our government is good because it checks the power. If we didn’t have opposition, new laws could be made almost overnight, unchallenged and unchecked.

    ========

    I hope he then appreciates those of us who oppose Republicans in Utah for the exact same reasons!

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 6:50 a.m.

    It is one thing to have an opposition party, it is a radical thing to oppose government by trying to stop it from functioning to gain minority advantage or for political points. The tea party was taught a lesson about this recently.

  • FreedomFighter41 Provo, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 5:57 a.m.

    If the GOP was merely sticking to their principles then they'd be the #1 fans of Obamacare.

    Remember, Obama didn't create Obamacare, the Republicans did. Obama wanted a single payer system.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Nov. 5, 2013 5:56 a.m.

    Opposition in sticking to your principles is one thing.

    However, shutting down the government and waving the Confederate flag because you don't have enough votes to overturn a law is something completely different. Remember now, Mitch McConnell himself stated that his job was to make Obama a one-term President.

    Gee, I thought it was to represent Americans and to help our country progress?

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Nov. 5, 2013 4:11 a.m.

    "Opposition in our government is good because it checks the power."

    Legitimate, Opposing viewpoints are healthy.

    But, Sam, that is not what we have today for the most part.
    We have opposition for the sake of opposition. And it happens in any and every political situation.

    Our countries leaders are more intent on opposing every idea from the other side than they are to look for good solutions and ideas.

    And, we follow along like sheep. We actually now WANT our politicians to be that way. We are that way. No idea from the other side is good.

    The intensity of the partisan support is mind boggling. On both the left and the right.
    We put party over country. And we have been convinced that it is Patriotism.

    We need to wake up people. And we better wake up quickly.