As a former Assistant Council Commissioner the BSA has become nothing more than
a very big disappointment. The only reason that individuals are getting
'medals' is because if the LDS Church dropped Scouting the whole
organization would crumble. Sounds to me as if this PR stunt is nothing more
than a drive to keep the LDS Church in the BSA. By the way, the Chief Scout
Executive makes about 1.2 million a year while most everyone else is a volunteer
and spending some serious bucks on uniforms and much, much more. Forget scouting
and spend your money and time preparing for things that are more important as a
family. Fathers, mothers, and other significant males can teach all the needed
skills to any young man with a little study and field application. Even a friend
who is a veteran can easily help teach any young man all types of skills. We
don't need Scouting any longer especially with the compromise the BSA
entered into. That send the wrong message to young men.
A stirring salute to the values that make boys and men--and all of us--strong
and capable people. May American Scouting always keep "duty to God," the
most important value, as the center of its oath.
American Patriot, I have to agree, on all points. My sons watched last
night's broadcast and commented that, when it wasn't an uncomfortable
musical about scouting, it felt like a blatant PR stunt. BSA is desperate to
keep the Church on its side. I'm ready for the church to make a break
instead. We can do much better without the bloated finances and misdirected
values of BSA.
Scouting will endure on the values for which it has always stood! The brouhaha
last year was an effort to make these boys into something they are not, gay. It
was a blatant attempt by the gay community and the media (always in consort)to
stir things up (literally) that aren't relevant to its message or to young
men. BSA will continue stronger than ever, if only by the LDS church's
support, as has been said.
I agree with most of what AmericanPatriot said here. Paying for Scouting at the
local Church level has become nothing less than a boondoggle. Meanwhile Salt
Lake gives a blank check to Walnut Hill Lane (which gets supplemented by the
United Way) for the right to tweak and water-down the program.My
generation was told in the Church that Eagle Scout was the important thing, and
so many finished Eagle but never really came out to church again, and there were
some like me who fell short and were all but ostracized for it. I did figure
out on my mission that in the eternal scheme of things, it didn't matter
that I didn't finish Eagle. So why the big push for it?)I like
what I see with the programs the Church has rolled out recently, such as Duty to
God and Come, Follow Me. But Eagle Scout and Scout fundraising still get the
big push.In some ways, I see last night's program as sort of a
"last hurrah" for the relationship between LDS and BSA. Maintaining the
status quo long-term is untenable, especially since it serves at best 40% of
Years ago, as member of the National Guard, I became discouraged with things and
some of the decisions that I saw officers make. My options were limited. Endure
the status quo, quit, or make the hard choice, seek a commission and try to make
changes within my sphere. I made the hard choice. I did not change the world,
but I had many enlisted come and thank me for my efforts on their behalf.I’m at a similar crossroads with my affiliation in Scouting. There have
been things recently done that I might not agree with. But then I look at the
faces of the Scouts in my troop. I can endure the status quo, quit, or make the
hard choice, roll up my sleeves and do everything in my power to make sure that
these Scouts have the best experience possible, and to influence things within
my sphere. I made the hard choice. For those of you ready to abandon
Scouting, I challenge you to look at the good the organization has done for over
100 years. Then look into the faces of those young men. You have a choice to
make. Yours in Scouting
I must say, I object. While I understand the basis for some criticism, last
night was delivering a big message mostly to members of the Church that 1) the
Church and its Prophet support Scouting 2) Scouting is needed more now than ever
3) it has been a powerfully positive movement for a very long time and those
kinds of foundational pillars should not be lightly abandoned. The BSA is better
for the Church's involvement and the Church has been blessed by Scouting.
Not every connection the Church has need pass a 100% philosophical purity test
for the Church to maintain its outreach and cooperation. Let the baby and bath
water be, for heaven's sake!
Those people that feel that the LDS church and scouting should part ways are
mistaken. Scouting provides a solid program to help young men become decent, law
abiding men and fathers. What other program is there that can take a young man
away from the internet and the soft core pornography of the media? Yes, shirts
and badges cost money and the paid administrators are not perfect but Scouting
is a program that meshes well with what a Christian church should espouse. Just
"The brouhaha last year was an effort to make these boys into something they
are not, gay."Banderson,Could you please give me a
few examples as to how someone would go about making YOU gay?For me
personally, I cannot imagine how I could be "turned"
So it has been said that the Church and the Prophet support scouting. The
prophet also likes fishing also, it doesn't mean I have to like fishing
because the prophet does.In a way, I agree with TXAfghanVEt, to a
degree. First, I hate scouting, I think the program is a racket and a farse. I
do not support it at all. However, I have a scout calling in church. I
accepted the calling because I was asked to do it. And while I am with these
young men and their leaders, I support them and encourage them to do and be
there best. I do that for the leaders I work with and the boys. But I still
will never support this organization.It was also said that "What
other program is there that can take a young man away from the internet and the
soft core pornography on the media?" Pretty simple actually, any other
program a young man can be involved with, football, baseball, band, etc. If the
internet is an issue, maybe you need to teach this in your own home and
don't leave it up to the BS to raise your kid.
Generally speaking, I cannot understand how someone would choose to be gay. It
just makes no logical sense. So, I come from the position that most gay people
are born that way. My conclusion is not based on religion or politics. I had a conversation with couple of scout parents in our troop. They
were very upset with the BSA, like many on this board, concerning the recent
change.They were adamantly opposed to the change and very outspoken
concerning homosexuality in general.These are men who love their
children deeply.I could not help to think about people like that
whose children just might be gay. These children certainly see the disdain.
What would it be like for them? How would they feel knowing how disappointed
their dad would be if he knew?Are these the kids who might commit
suicide?Unless you believe that being Gay is just an arbitrary
choice, consider the impact of your displeasure on your kid, who just might be
gay. If you think that it would be impossible for you to ever have
a gay kid, think again.
While this was going on last night, the scouts in my neighborhood were going
door-to-door soliciting donations for Friends of Scouting. These donations pay
the bloated salaries of professional scouters, the same ones who were warm and
comfortable inside the conference center. Unfortunately, scouting has been
reduced to three things: Summer camp, watered-down merit badges, and
fundraising.The LDS Church needs to break from scouting and do their
own program. It will never happen while President Monson is alive, but after he
is gone it needs to happen.
I agree scouting can be a great learning experience for the boys and the
leaders. When I compare my experience with cub scouting from back in the early
1980's and today there is a world of difference. Back in the 80's,
parents ran the program including committee chairman and committee members
(included pack and den). Today, in three areas of the U.S. I have done cub
scouting this is not the situation. I am seeing more and more older parents and
grandparent age (already raised their children) being asked to help out. Many of
the parents expect the leaders to provide all the awards and badges for their
son. It has become an entitlement program rather than a family program. One
recent development in the LDS church in our area has been to have one week set
aside for Faith in God only projects, no scouting allowed. So, those who are
scout leaders need to run two separate programs and keep records of both. I
think it is time to choose where the priorities will be, Faith in God or
As a Scout and Scouter with over 40 yrs of association with BSA, I am obviously
biased. No, I did not like the decision made last year, but I have seen the
fruits of the Scouting program. You do not need to earn your Eagle to benefit
either. Our job description as Scouters is really to help save the boys from the
evils of the world, teach them how to make good decisions, and prepare them to
be good citizens, missionaries, fathers, patriots, and leaders. As to last years
decision by the Church, the way I see it, the local Ward leaders (Bishops) are
the ones to handle issues with each young man. He still has control of
participation. To all you naysayers I say are you going to follow the Prophet or
not? I loved last nights celebration, which is what it was. I thought it was
great! I look forward to my continued association with the BSA.
I thought last night's production was way overblown. It was almost
embarrassing. It was clear to me however, that scouting will remain an
important part of the LDS church as long as President Monson is our prophet.
That point was made very clear.
UtahBruin"So it has been said that the Church and the Prophet support
scouting. The prophet also likes fishing also, it doesn't mean I have to
like fishing because the prophet does."That's apples and
oranges. I've never heard any prophet publicly declare, on behalf of the
church, that fishing is a church sanctioned program, with a handbook of
instructions. To compare scouting with fishing is just disingenuous. Nobody
said you have to like scouting. Your opinion is valuable, but scouting is a
church sponsored program and as long as it is I'll continue soliciting and
making Friends of Scouting donations as long as I'm asked to do so,
regardless of how uncomfortable I might be asking already cash strapped families
to donate to this worthwhile program.The sheer number of young men
who have been positively influenced by scouting (myself and my sons included)
dwarf the number of disgruntled participants. That's good enough for me.
@ JoeBlow: I would agree that no one makes a conscious decision to be gay.
However, I do not believe it to be a genetic trait, or unchangeable.In my teenage years, I struggled with sale-sex attraction. I did not
necessarily choose that, but it developed somehow. Yet I felt it was wrong due
to my understanding of God and the purpose of the powers of reproduction, so I
never acted out with anyone on those desires. Over time, I lost the attraction.
To me, there is a difference in having SSA and being gay. Anyone
can choose their behavior. I chose to not act on those impulses, and they
eventually went away. Those who choose to act on their SSA become gay. I am
not judging anyone, just stating my experience. I do not believe that
homosexuality is unchageable because I changed.I did not "deny
my real self"; I am becoming who my God and Creator wants me to be....
I am a Scout volunteer a the Stake level. I write a $25 to $40 check once a year
to Friends of Scouting without regret. One check a year is not a big deal.
$600 million on a web site that doesn't work, is a big deal. A $16(or is it
17?)trillion debt is a big deal. The angst is truly disproportionate. The money
goes to the Council entirely. If the Church did scouting they would have to buy
and maintain the same infrastructure that the council does: oversight, camps,
insurance, material, etc. I don't think the boys nor their scout leaders
should have to solicit FOS funds - there are plenty of adults like me willing to
do that that don't bear the burden of a Scoutmaster. I don't recall
Pres Monson ever asking us to support fishing. Yet I suppose that if enough
members agitate long enough the Church will cut loose and Scouting will quickly
become as vacuous as Girl Scouting and the Church more insular. I used to think
like the naysayers but a decade out where the rubber meets the road has
moderated my views - a common occurrence.
If the church is artificially propping up scouting numbers then maybe it's
time for scouting to move on and leave the church where it is. BSA should be
independent and it's a relationship that never should have been in the
I'd just like to see a Ward or Stake actually try the program. When I hear
people attribute Scouting only to seeking merit badges, rank advancement and
outdoor skills, they are seriously missing the boat. Do they honestly believe
that the reason the LDS church selected Scouting as a significant portion of the
actual ministry of Aaronic Priesthood is this? Hardly....Stop pretending
that Scouting is an adult led activity program focused on seeking the honors of
men and start trying to figure out if what you're implementing matches what
you profess as LDS.
When members of the LDS Church sustain President Thomas S. Monson as their
Prophet, i.e., God's spokesman to all mankind, they consider the decisions
led by him in conjunction with those in the presiding counsels of the Church
(First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve, Presiding Bishopric) to be both
reasoned and inspired. For me, it's not what I "like" or "agree
with," that's important, but what God's Prophet supports and
promotes. Maybe we should look for a deeper meaning in the Church's
decision to support the inclusion of young men who have same-sex attraction who
also agree to abide by God's laws pertaining to sexual morality, i.e., laws
of sexual restraint and purity. I believe a review of the Church position at its
new Church-sponsored website helps us understand this position and why it's
being taken. Understanding is always a good thing. And Our Savior showed us by
his reaching out to sinners, publicans, Samaritans, and lepers we're not to
exclude those who are different from us from our world in hopes we might be able
to bless them with His Gospel by what we say and do.
While their is no official directive to go fishing in the Church, the pressure
to send boys out camping is very real, and I do think it is based on cultural
influences of top leadership. My son has no interest in going camping, yet that
is a central focus for his age group. Since I doubt that would be the case if
the Church had ended up being headquartered in many other areas of the world,
including in the US, I don't know why we have to assume camping (or
Scouting) is part and parcel of living the gospel. I am grateful that the
Church has programs for kids, to be sure. But, quite frankly, show me a boy with
involved parents, who plays a sport and a musical instrument, and I'll show
you a kid who will end up much better rounded and prepared for adulthood than a
boy without those things who does a checklist of items to get merit badges and
rankings. No, they aren't without value, but I think the Church can do
considerably better than focusing exclusively on one type of experience that
doesn't appeal to all.
Wow, there is a lot of hatred towards scouting. It sure sounds like there are a
lot of people out there that missed the who point of the Scout program.Earning badges is only secondary. Its main purpose is to build young men into
honorable men that are united in a common cause.You can take an LDS
Scout from the midwest and put them with a Baptist Scout from New York city, and
they already share a common bond through the scout program.Within
the LDS church, the Scout program has been a great tool to maintain contact with
inactive families that want their kids to be Scouts.The question to
you nay-sayers that hate scouting is what organization out there can bring
people of different religions and cultures together like scouting?
I think it's shortsighted to suggest the LDS Church just throw away
Scouting. This is much bigger than all that. Boys have a precious 10 years
from the time they start Cub Scouts until they're eligible for Missionary
service; having a program built and dedicated for much of the prime learning
ages of these boys not easily created. Scouting teaches values and if it is
solely focused on merit badges then the leaders are letting the boys down and
wasting some of that precious time.
Joeblow: Life is a choice and so are your actions. I can't help how you
think, feel, or speak. That is your domain, between you and God or whomever you
direct your thought. We have lost the art of working things out alone in this
country. People want to drag everyone into their challenges, whatever those
are. Everyone has challenges. They are best left between you and God. To say
that I don't care is a stretch. I believe you need to live your life with
the grand opportunity to live it as you see fit, without my assistance or
deference. This is just another reason why I see limited government as the only
answer to allow everyone the same opportunity and only gives the government the
power to defend me in those rights specifically mentioned in the Constitution.
Liberty can make people more miserable or happier, but it also insures my
agency, something that is in great retreat today!
This event was a celebration of 100 years of Scouting in the LDS Church. It was
an excellent production. I am dissapointed to see that so many who did not even
see the event or went to it with their preconceived notions express hatred for
movement that has blessed and strengthened so many for so long.Many
profess to sustain their Prophet but turn around and essentially deride him for
the direction take, even expressing hatred for the programs of the Church.I wish all could attend LDS week at Philmont and see the vision of the
Leadership of the LDS Church. The LDS Church's affiliation is not just for
LDS young men and boys it is for all.
To those who fail to see the good of scouting then let me put it this way.
There are many who put sports and other things above the boy. Money generally
is the reason for this. Yet, out of all those who do sports, less than 1% ever
will. Sports and others avenues teaches the youth to work hard to get where they
want to go. Funny but Scouting does the same identical thing. Scouting is the
activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood and the Young Men Program. Those of you
who disagree need to take a step back and understand the Church tried something
similar to scouting before it came along. For 100 years it has been a great
program and it will continue to be as long as there are leaders and parents
willing to do so. The Duty to God will never replace what scouting does. If
you don't like camping then you need to see what nature actually is for.
Read the Ensign article this month and you will understand where
Scouting came from and where it is going.
There's a simple alternative to BSA already in place: Duty to God. Some
here have expressed dismay that if the church severed ties with BSA nothing
would be left for the boys. But there is, and we can create a YM's camp
just as we do with YW. I've known of wards where the
traditional boy scout camp was replaced with a camp based on the scriptures.
Bows and arrows taught the boys about Nephi; trail blazing became a lesson in
the Israelites in the wilderness or Zion's Camp. And one creative ward even
did rope tying as a parallel to when Nephi's brothers tied him on the mast
of the ship! Not only can we replace BSA, I'm confident we in
the church can create experiences that are far more enlightening and less
restrictive than Scouting. You know, not every boy likes to camp.The
costs would also decrease dramatically. Each little merit badge, made of thread
and glue, that the boys earn cost an average of $2.50. Courts of Honor costs
literally hundreds of dollars for those little patches made in China
(yes--China).Oh, we can do so much better!
@Wei Wei O Washte"To all naysayers I say are you going to follow
the Prophet or not?" @That's A Good One"Apples and oranges. I never heard a prophet declare, on behalf of the
church, that fishing is a church sanctioned program... To compare scouting with
fishing is disingenuous."@Glenn L"members...sustain President Thomas S. Monson as their Prophet, i.e.,
God's spokesman to all mankind, they consider the decisions led by
him....to be both reasoned and inspired.It is not disingenuous.
Doesn't mean I don't follow the prophet. Inspiration doesn't
make it prophecy. To sanction or support something is one thing. I have heard
a prophet declare how much he likes fishing and would promote it as a good
activity also. Doesn't mean I have to do it.With that said, I
have never heard a prophet say I was not following him because I don't care
for scouting. I have also never heard a prophet say I can't have a temple
recommend because I don't agree with scouting. I have also never heard a
prophet say that being part of scouting was from revelation. Never!
Banderson, Thanks for the response, how did you get onto
"limited government" based on my question to you?You said
that the goal of the scouting change is to make scouts gay.How would that
be accomplished?Do you believe that you could be "made" to
change sexual orientation? If so, how?
@ TX VET:Thank you for your remarks. You are spot on. It's about the boys I serve, and the values I try to teach them.
I'm saddened by the numerous comments that the Church will only keep
Scouting until Pres. Monson dies. That could have been said about the last 9
prophets. Folks, the Church will keep supporting Scouting as long as the Lord
wants it to. We keep saying that the Church could put on a better
program on its own, and that may be true. However, the Lord encourages Scouting
because it is a program that also positively affects many millions of boys who
aren't members of the Church. The Lord directs us to promote
worthy causes and to do much good on their own. The Welfare Program isn't
just for Saints; we try to help Tsunami and Earthquake victims no matter what
church, if any, they belong to. Finally, for those who worry about
last year's decision by Scouting, I affirm that it was a good one. Why not
let young men with Same Sex Attraction be in contact with "normal" boys.
These SSA boys are in a period when they are pondering their identity, and it
is good for them to not be isolated from their peers.
All you posters need to remember the scripture 1 Nephi 2:15 and it's
correlation to scouting! :)
Scouting is primarily for US boys. Since there are now more members outside of
the US than in it, is this conversation even relevant any longer?
@RedWings,Thank you for sharing that experience! I think many of us
want to hear more experiences like yours so we all can really have a better
understanding of SSA.
When my Scout master brought a plug-in neon fire to the Stake Center and plugged
it in and turned off the lights and asked that we sit around it and tell
stories, it dawned on me that Scouting wasn't for me.
Didn't see the broadcast. Probably won't. That said, when my church
youth leaders ran scouting on our activity night (when I was a youth), we did
all kinds of things I still remember like first aid, sculpture, fingerprinting,
service projects, and outdoors stuff. When I had leaders that didn't run
scouting on our activity night, we played basketball. I experienced both.
Scouting was great when I was a youth. So many great memories camping, hiking,
serving. I am an Eagle Scout. I spent my teenage summers working at a camp for
boy scouts. It was the best thing I could have done. Unfortunately, there have
been many changes to scouting since then - most of them not for the better. I
don't know what is best now. I don't have any scouting age children
yet, so I will have to wait and see how things are being run by then. For some
scouting is and was a great experience. For others, not so much. A lot of this
has to do with how many boys are in their area and how much effort the leaders
put into the program.
A wonderful presentation that truly depicts what Scouting is to young men. My
husband and I have been involved in Scouting for many years and we have seen the
results of this program in the lives of boys and men. May the Scouting program
ever stay strong in it's purpose.
The thing is that the more the leaders and parents are involved the more the
young men will be enthused. The Duty to God is not a scouting thing at all. It
is the same as the Personal Progress and does not substitute Scouting in the
least. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is led by a Prophet of
God who gives insight and revelations pertaining to the whole church. Since,
President Joseph Fielding Smith through President Thomas Spencer Monson the
Scouting Program is at the fore front of the Young Men program. It is time for
many of you to get on board with this and see the good it does for all boys
whether they are members of the LDS Church or not. Our scouting program is also
a missionary tool as we should have in our troops both LDS and non-LDS young
men. We are allowed to go out and recruit boys from outside our own circle. If
this is done not only will scouting be in effect when the Savior comes but the
lives of boys every where will be blessed. GET ON BOARD.
Growing up, scouting was big and all of us boys were in it. Today I can see all
the BSA problems, read American Patriot's comments and clearly understand.
Serving in stake and ward leadership assignments, I have seen the bloated
carcass BSA has become.however.... Last summer I did a few days at
camp with our ward contingent. Tired of the BSA, I was walking back to my camp,
frustrated. Met a young man almost in tears who was lost. He asked if I would
help him find his camp. I did...took 20 minutes out of my day and that was that.
And that's the point. In my heart I felt a mild rebuke and the
point driven home. It's not about me, the BSA or what I think is better, PR
issues, etc. It's about the boys. President Monson can see it, he's no
fool. We can put up with the BSA issues and get the job done. It's not
about skills it's about leadership and character development and helping
the one who is lost, find his way back to 'the camp.' Think about it.
The broadcast was not about controversial issues. So let them rest for a while.
The broadcast was about honoring a program that has meant a lot to many people
and helped many young men develop and grow.The biggest problems with
scouting in the church is the over-emphasis on advancement, the lack of youth
leadership, and the failure to implement Varsity and Venturing fully.
That's not the BSA's fault (overpaid as some are) -- but a failure to
commit fully on the part of called LDS leaders.
Those who want to criticize the BSA on the Policy Clarification that came out in
May should be aware that the statement was essentially from the LDS church. For
LDS units this was really no change at all, Young Men and Leaders are expected
to to live morally clean lives.While last nights program was more
than a year in the making, few are aware that plans were "put on hold"
for a while until after the BSA policy statement was decided on and came
forth.Someone referred to last night as a PR stunt by the BSA to
keep LDS support. If you witnessed what occurred it was an LDS Church statement
that the Church intends to stay in partnership with the BSA for a very long long
Those who say Duty to God program should replace scouting either haven't
bothered to look at both in depth or have not understood the programs.Parents who do not regularly sit down with their sons and look at their
Duty-to-God efforts are missing a tremendous opportunity. If you don't
know your sons efforts, if you don't invite him to regularly share at FHE
or at the dinner table or when gathering the family for prayer you don't
understand and you do not assist as significantly as you could in your
son's effort to become a Priesthood Man.Both programs are
divinely inspired, they compliment, not duplicate each other. DTG is structured
primarily to be an individual effort wherein the Young man Learns the doctrine,
Acts in the Doctrine and then Shares (gives testimony of) the doctrine and faith
building experiences he has had in living the doctrine. This Program focuses on
the Spiritual and should be in everything we do. It is not a once a month or
even once a week Mutual night activity.
From what I can see, it is those who have not had the exposure to BSA outside of
the LDS Church who have the ax to grind. Think about it....what you have the
heartburn over is not BSA, but what some in the LDS Church have tried to twist
it into. Once you see a boy-run/led troop, a healthy outdoor program,
advancement that means something and the product they turn out, you get the real
picture of what Scouting is. What I see folks are complaining about is the
counterfeit version. The adult run, merit badge mill with no real program,
ignoring the Methods of Scouting-type that seems to be the mistake that keeps on
giving. It isn't BSA's fault if your adults don't want to get
trained, or follow the program, or are too lazy to do what it takes to run a
good program. Think about it.Oh, and Duty to God DOES NOT replace
Scouting, per the Brethren. It's also a Sunday program, not to replace
Scouting on activity night. We use Scouting in the US and Canada for a
I agree with Jack and others. I have seen the LDS version of Scouting as well as
the non-LDS version, and the difference is stark. In my experience, the LDS
version of Scouting is a waste of time, generally speaking. Neither the leaders
nor the young men (and women) are dedicated, properly trained, and "get
it". Everything from uniforms to merit badges to the size and composition of
troops and leadership training are a joke. Outside of the Church they do
Scouting right and it is a remarkable, life-changing program for thousands of
youth around the world, both young men and young women as well as leaders. In
the Church, Scouting is a half-hearted, pathetic chimera of what it is supposed
to be. It has probably been responsible for more people disliking Scouting than
it has helped. My first exposure to pornography was on an LDS Scouting activity
that was poorly executed by lazy, untrained leaders who did the minimum
necessary because it was a Church calling they felt obligated to accept. When my
family moved away from Utah, I saw what Scouting was supposed to be and it was
Agree with Rocket Science. Someone please explain how the policies of the Young
Men's program of the church widely different than what the BSA adopted.
Pre-decision, I can see people having mixed emotions. Post-decision, it's
your opportunity to listen to the prophet and pray about the matter. Tuesday
night was as strong of an endorsement and commitment that you will find by the
Church to the BSA.
One of the comments included a line that he could not imagine anything which
could change him. I had a department head in the office next to me who decided
he was gay at the age of 5. At that time, virtually all gay's kept their
status hidden. Th come out was to be bullied. At the time I retired, he had
lived in a monogamous relationship for 30 years. He was responsible for pushing
the paperwork through to fire a heterosexual teacher who had relations with a
female student in a rehearsal room under the stage. Unless you were to judge
him solely on his relationship of 30 years, you would see an ideal teacher of
your youth.Why are you so quick to violate your teachings such as D&C
64:10? Do those young men who are gay not deserve a shot at the leadership and
other training that the BSA offers? Do you judge all gay men and women as child
abusers?It is time for some retrospection.
I don't understand why the church and BSA separation can't be a good
thing for both organizations. In my view, both suffer by the current
arrangement. The scouting program suffers because adult leaders are
"called" into a scouting position whether they have passion for the
program or not. Because of that you get a mediocre experience at best for the
boys and the leaders. If you separated the programs, so that those who LOVED
scouting were the ones involved with it, and nobody was forced or compelled to
be involved, than I believe the experience would be much better for the boys and
leaders alike. In addition, my Sundays are important to me. Sacred
even. So why have a sat through hours of meetings about a campout or organizing
a court of honor, rather than focusing on the spiritual development of the young
men in my ward? Isn't that what I'm supposed to be focused on? If the BSA was an independent program that was endorsed by the church,
rather than run by the church, the BSA could do what they do best, and the
Church could do what it does best.
I went to a joint US boy scout / Saudi Arabia boy scout jamboree. There were
two totally different cultures at play. The US boy scouts were being tested on
knots and the Saudi scout leaders were looking surprised at the skill in knots
and the Saudi scouts were doing military marches and drills.Then
they had a singing fest with Moslem ballads. There was a Saudi MC who was a
black guy with a prominent gold tooth. He looked a lot like a rapper. But he
was speaking in Arabic and introducing people by saying like Ed Mcmahon would
introduce Johnny Carson, "Heeere's Johnneeee!" But he would say,
"(something in Arabic) . . . Abuuuuu Baaaakkeerrrr!"
TO: mgreen at 9:50 am --Wow... I'm confused by these kinds of
attitudes and theories. If we're LDS, then we all need to get in line with
the Prophet and support Church policies and programs full-heartedly (incl.
Scouting, no picking and choosing).Church members are called into
ALL callings in the Church, "whether they have passion for the program or
not." We are expected to give 100%, to be faithful and obedient, and to
GROW into our callings. Should we not expect the same in Scouting callings?We are totally missing the essence of Scouting in the Church if we think
that camping and Courts of Honor have nothing to do with a boy's
"spiritual development". Scouting IS the best method available to
develop the spirtual side of YM. That's WHY the Church uses these
programs. Scouting, at its core, IS a religious movement.If you
hate sitting in troop committee meetings on Sundays, then may I suggest that you
just don't hold your mtgs then. Simple solution.BSA IS an
independent program, and the church does not "run" Scouting. Your
claims are without basis.
@inspectorC Thank you for the your comments. I do not believe
members of the church have ever been told to "get in line" behind any
one or thing. We are asked to search, ponder, and pray then act as moved by the
spirit. I disagree with your statement that "Scouting IS the
best method available to develop the spirtual side of YM". I've been in
YM programs for many years and have watched many YM lose their way heading into
their adult years because Sunday priesthood meetings turn into a scout meeting
rather than a lesson focused on spiritual development. They lose interest. At its core, Scouting is all of those things, spiritual, physical,
mental development. However, because of how its currently administered, those
fundamentals never reach the boys the way they could if it was a separate
program. Just my opinion. I'm certainly not saying we should do away with
the BSA, I just think it should be separate. The last statement was
a broad association, my fault. I meant that at least here in Utah, the Scout
program, in large part, is facilitated by called church members. What could happen if the were separate?
In our area there is no honor. Our only son was abused at camp at the age of
12 and from there it has been heartache and sorrow watching our son go downhill.
After 25 years of drugs and booze he has finally become sober now for two
years so far. I tried as a parent to get other ways to keep our son active along
with boys who had no interest in scouting but was shut down. I still think that
there should be something else other than scouting to keep boys active in
Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson,I would to God that every boy of Boy Scout
age in America could have the benefits and the blessings of the great Boy Scout
program. It is truly a noble program; it is a builder of character, not only in
the boys, but also in the men who provide the leadership. I have often said that
Scouting is essentially a spiritual program, a builder of men. It is
established, as is our government and its Constitution, upon a deeply spiritual
foundation. (So Shall Ye Reap, p. 138.) "Scouting is an integral
part of the Church program for young men and complements Aaronic Priesthood
quorum work. Where programs for Scout troops are available, please understand it
is not an optional program"Gordon B. Hinckley"I love
the Scouting movement. The promise of the Scout Oath and the twelve points of
the Scout Law point young men along the path of being prepared for the 21st
century. They provide a solid and powerful magnetic force toward development of
a well-rounded and noteworthy character that counts..."President
Monson is a long time supporter of Scouting. Enough said?
@mgreen,I see that you are suffering from what I described in my last
post. It is obvious that what you have experienced is the counterfeit program,
not what the LDS Church and BSA intend. Please find and watch the last YM
training from the General YM Presidency last May. "We don't need
another program than Scouting" to prepare our future missionaries, is what
they said. I agree. My solution for you is training, go to training. Get your
other YM advisors/Scouters to training. Start training your young men to run
their program like it is supposed to be run, then facilitate their growth. You
will see how they mature, spiritually and emotionally and then you will see what
Scouting is supposed to do. What you are doing on Sunday is developing and
teaching them to plan and set goals, ( or should be)and that is sacred too.
Raising the next generation to serve and function is a sacred calling, not an
interruption of it. Scouting is the vehicle,learn to drive.
More like 99 years of honor and 1 year of shame.And counting.
If the purpose of Scouting, to lds people, is to keep boys focused on the
priesthood and lds values, while letting the basic precepts of Scouting fall to
the side...Guess what?
I'm not sure I could add anything to those supporting scouting or to
dismiss the rancor that is obvious in many of the comments. I can only say that,
after 50+ years experience in scouting, plus other years in public school, in
business, as a citizen, and a life-long member of the LDS Church, that the same
patterns occur in all aspects of life as are current in scouting and yes, in the
LDS membership. Those involved consist of dedicated, effective leaders,
teachers, politicians, government employees, businessmen, etc., but also consist
of those who slack, avoid training, don't relate well to others, or for
whatever reason, reflect varying degrees of incompetence. There are also those
who want to make a contribution, but are brand-new at the job, or just learning
by a type of on-the-job training. What is needed here is a little patience,
forgiveness, and encouragement to those with weaknesses. We all have them!