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Letter: Unified Coalition

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  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 12:09 a.m.

    Over the years, your Republicans devised several "free market" fixes for our healthcare problems. Every single one of them featured an individual mandate. That's why I think that your opposition to Obamacare is completely fraudulent. Obamacare was your idea.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 12:11 a.m.

    Part of the reason we have Obamacare is because we've been robbed of the single payer system we actually should have gotten. Tea party republicans, who have managed to hijack the situation, have effectively derailed any voice of reason in the republican party, and are doing harm to the nation in the process. We do need a unified coalition, free from the extreme.

  • Baron Scarpia Logan, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 6:00 a.m.

    Perhaps the GOP will "rise again" as many after the Civil War hoped for the old South... the GOP stood for abolishing slavery and rebuilding the South back then. Today, those goals would probably be too liberal for the TEA Party.

    Perhaps the GOP will rise again to take away people's health care and prevent the country from rebuilding its roads, bridges, power lines, and infrastructure... That will attract voters -- NOT!

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 6:25 a.m.

    Too funny, Ron, since the ACA is exactly what the Republicans came up with. The only problem they have with the plan is that it was implemented by a Democrat instead of a Republican. Too darn funny.

  • joe5 South Jordan, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 6:54 a.m.

    I don't think you understand what really happened. The problem was never health insurance. Over the last several years, insurance company profits have been running in the neighborhood of 4%. That's not egregious. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find investors for a company with such a low rate of return.

    No, the problems were government regulations driving medical costs, the constant threat of lawsuits against medical professionals, the extremely punitive awards given by judges and juries, the inability to provide inexpensive medicines due to FDA oversight, etc. Virtually every problem was the result of bad legislation, not high insurance rates.

    So what does the government do? Decides to take over the one area operating on marginal profits; health insurance. If the government really wanted to help, they would have treated the disease instead of the least significant symptom.

    But, see, the government was never about helping. They weren't even about claiming the monies for themselves. The government is all about control. Controlling every aspect of your life and mine is their ultimate objective. Obamacare is only a symptom, an indicator. Bondage is the disease that needs to be treated before it becomes fatal.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 7:03 a.m.

    The tea party is not going to work with anyone. There way of shut down the government. A free market solution would use the insurance companies like the Republicans put in place in Massachusetts.

  • liberal larry salt lake City, utah
    Oct. 29, 2013 7:07 a.m.

    The ACA IS a free market system based on plans floated by by the ultra conservative, Coors family funded, Heritage Foundation! It also has much in common with the successful Massachusetts Romney care.

    The biggest problem with the ACA is that it is endorsed by President Barack Obama. If Obama embraced the entire Republican Party Platform the whole platform would immediately be rejected by the GOP as a "liberal" scheme to bring down the country!

  • Semi-Strong Louisville, KY
    Oct. 29, 2013 7:28 a.m.

    Liberal Larry is correct. The basic concept of the individual mandate is conservative. It requires you to take full responsibility for yourself. No freeloading on the system.

    People say "but I don't want ANY insurance". Ok. Sign a binding and enforceable contract that says you will refuse any and all public or charitable support (ever) for anything related to illness and I will let you go without insurance. You want your family to go without insurance? They sign too. That means you can NEVER go to a public or charitable hospital or plead your case on TV or radio for help. Why? Because you could have been responsible and gotten insurance.

    Simply put, the mandate requires you to be responsible for yourself. A conservative principle if ever there was one. Don't like the current implementation? No problem. But that is another issue entirely.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Oct. 29, 2013 7:58 a.m.

    CBS News) "CBS News has learned more than two million Americans have been told they cannot renew their current insurance policies -- more than triple the number of people said to be buying insurance under the new Affordable Care Act, commonly known as Obamacare." Next up? Watch for Demos up for reelection try to hide under their desks. Demos, YOU own this mess! Ted Cruz and Mike Lee were absolutely right about Obamacare!

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Oct. 29, 2013 8:32 a.m.

    So Mountanman, you believe that only around 700,000 people will sign up for insurance on the exchanges. Wow! In addition everyone knew there would be a "small" percentage of people who would have to upgrade their coverage. Key here is small. It's 2 million against the backdrop of 180 or so million with coverage that is adequate.

    Continuing on with the fantasy world of the right..it was "liberal" Democrats that gave us the ACA. Folks if you really see the world this way it's no wonder you think the world is slipping from your grasp. It has. It doesn't look anything like you believe it does.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Oct. 29, 2013 8:37 a.m.

    @ Pragmatist. Call CBS news and complain to them! They are the ones who reported this, not me!

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Oct. 29, 2013 8:48 a.m.

    A Pragmatist. Obama called the governor of Kentucky (a Democrat) who had reportedly a high number of people signing up for Obamacare insurance and congratulated him. Later it was learned that 87% of the people had signed up for Medicaid, not health care insurance. OPPS!

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Oct. 29, 2013 8:58 a.m.

    Some people think that the Constitution is dead. They have buried it. They refuse to refer to it when they demand that the Federal level of government "give" them more "soup". They have already traded their freedom for a bowl of soup and now they want everyone to join them as psuedo slaves.

    Is that harsh? I don't think so. The Constitution enumerates 17 duties that the Federal level of government is allowed to tax us for. ObamaCare is not on that list. The Constitution has a provision to handle ALL things that are not on that list. The 10th Amendment clearly states that ALL things outside the scope of authorized duties are to be left to the States or to the People; therefore, ObamaCare, if the Constitution is respected, is a duty that is to be left to the States or to the People. It is not an authorized duty of the Federal level of government.

    The Court declared that ObamaCare is a tax. They have not addressed the legality of the ObamaCare tax. ObamaCare is not on the list of authorized taxes.

  • Semi-Strong Louisville, KY
    Oct. 29, 2013 9:06 a.m.

    Mountanman,

    I think Medicaid expansion is part of the program.

    Mike Richards,

    Seriously? You think the Supremes said it was a tax and was therefore okay but did not bother to look and see if they thought it was a constitutionally legal tax?

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Oct. 29, 2013 9:24 a.m.

    @Semi-Strong,

    If you were more familiar with the Court, you would know that the Supreme Court is an appellate court. An appellate court can only rule on cases that lower courts have already judged. Lower courts CANNOT rule on a tax until that tax is implemented and DAMAGES can be proven. At the time that the Supreme Court ruled on ObamaCare, no lower court had ruled on whether the TAX caused damages because that part of ObamaCare was not yet functional.

    Do you think that the Supreme Court would rule outside its authorized sphere? If there is anyone in America who should understand the law, it would be those justices who sit on the Supreme Court. Although, in reality, everyone of those justices "judges" according to his political ideology, they correctly refused to declare the ObamaCare TAX unconstitutional until a lower court first ruled.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Oct. 29, 2013 9:29 a.m.

    Mountanman, not complaining, just saying first of all no enrollment numbers have been released, secondly you're a month in to an admittedly slow three month enrollment period, and you have at least 50 million people being mandated to sign up. The 700,000 number could be right for the first month but is ridiculous as a final number. However the 2 million number is probably pretty accurate as a final number because the insurance companies had to purge their noncompliant plans by Oct. 1. So put your party horns back in the box your timing is way off.

    It's still the law. It's not going anywhere. Will there be changes certainly, and my guess is one of the first will be coverage requirements.

    BTW Medicaid expansion is part of the plan, and if a substantial number of the 50 million uninsured can qualify for Medicaid we've got real economic problems that will have stretched back decades. So If I were a Republican I'd be very hesitant to talk too loudly about this.

  • joe5 South Jordan, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 9:30 a.m.

    pragmatist: *sigh* Let's assume for a minute that you're right that ACA is a good plan, that people will sign up for it in droves, and that only a small percentage of people will be hurt with either worse coverage or higher rates or both.

    If that is true, the:
    - Why are so many, including those in liberal strongholds such as unions, trying to get excepted from ACA?
    - What are even liberal bastions of the media (such as MSNBC) openly and vigorously criticizing it?
    - Why is the Democratic Senate talking about delaying it for another year?

    It seems to me that you are right: Some people do still live in a fantasy world. We just disagree on who they are.

  • Semi-Strong Louisville, KY
    Oct. 29, 2013 9:58 a.m.

    Mike Richards,

    Here is what the Supremes said:

    "In this case, however, it is reasonable to construe what Congress has done as increasing taxes on those who have a certain amount of income, but choose to go without health insurance. Such legislation is within Congress's power to tax."

    Sounds to me like they think it is okie-dokie.

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 10:12 a.m.

    "CBS News has learned more than two million Americans have been told they cannot renew their current insurance policies."
    They were told that because their policies don't meet the new standard for coverage. That is not outrageous.

    For example, look at auto insurance. The State of Utah requires that you carry liability insurance in the amount of (at least) $25K bodily injury/$65K per accident/$15K property.
    Can you buy auto insurance with lesser coverage? Yes.
    Will that auto insurance meet the legal standard in Utah? No.
    Answer: Buy the correct auto insurance.

    Same thing with health insurance. The point of all this is to ensure that a person can pay their medical bills. If a person carries insurance that is below standard and won't pay the bills, then we've gained nothing. Setting an insurance standard is not new.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 29, 2013 10:21 a.m.

    @joe5 – “No, the problems were government regulations driving medical costs.”

    You’re misinformed on this issue…

    Regulations do not drive medical costs (which over the long run are ~3 times higher than inflation), and the medical malpractice issue is smaller than many believe. There have been numerous studies done on this and the percent of increase to overall medical costs are typically in the 1-2% range (which is still too high but nowhere near the main cost driver).

    The main driver of healthcare costs is simply the inherent (economic) nature of the healthcare industry and the fact that producers (not insurance companies - they are just the middle man) have pricing power far in excess of most industries – and monopolistic industries typically deliver some mix of lower quality and higher costs. In the case of U.S. healthcare, the quality is very good but the costs are disproportionate.

    This is the reason no developed country in the world has a purely free market healthcare system… they just don’t work very well.

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 10:31 a.m.

    Mountanman quoting the "left wing media" CBS as gospel?? Wait just a minute! I thought I just saw a porker fly by my window!!

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Oct. 29, 2013 11:20 a.m.

    Re:Joe5
    "In the first three quarters of 2011, the five largest publicly traded insurers reported their best three-quarter performance of the past decade, Bloomberg found. The companies' average operating margin widened to 8.65% in 2011, compared with 6.9% in the 18 months before the law was passed, surpassing Wall Street analysts’ expectations."

    James Hoffa, head of the Teamsters Union:

    "Though we may have concerns with specific provisions of the ACA, we share the president's goal of ensuring that every American has affordable access to top-quality health care. It is on this main point that we disagree wholeheartedly with the efforts of extreme right-wing Republicans to gut the ACA. Any suggestion otherwise is simply political posturing."

    Liberals have always been more critical of their leaders and self-critical than conservatives.

    Several Democratic Senators in conservative (southern) states are calling for a delay in the mandate. Insurers are adamently opposed to delays. Kentucky is successfully moving forward with ACA as are several other states.

  • wrz Phoenix, AZ
    Oct. 29, 2013 11:49 a.m.

    @Mountanman:
    "Next up? Watch for Demos up for reelection try to hide under their desks. Demos, YOU own this mess!"

    Democrats are holding true to their philosophies/methodologies... when things start going wrong with their programs, start pointing the accusative finger at others. Note how many posts on this thread are insisting Obamacare was a Republican idea in the first place. The truth is there has been zero, nil, nada national healthcare bills introduced in the US Congress by Republicans. In fact, the Republicans were shut out of any suggestions/amendments to Obamacare while being constructed in committee. And no Republican voted for it.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Oct. 29, 2013 11:55 a.m.

    The final verdict from the Supreme Court on ObamaCare is far from over. If you read the entire text of the ruling, including the dissent, you'll see that there is still much that will be discussed as various parts of ObamaCare go to court.

    For instance the dissent said:

    "The Constitution is not that. It enumerates not federally soluble problems, but federally available powers.

    The Federal Government can address whatever problems it wants but can bring to their solution only those powers that the Constitution confers, among which is the power to regulate commerce. None of our cases say anything else. Article I contains no whatever it-takes-to-solve-a-national-problem power."

    One man decided that ObamaCare would not be repealed. 59% of the People decided that ObamaCare was not for them, but one man overruled the majority. One man rejected the majority of the States. One man decided that he would not stand up to Obama, perhaps seeing himself as a sub-citizen when compared to Obama.

    That is tragic. We do not have "super citizens" who believe, like Orrin Hatch, that they must "school" us until we agree with their liberal ideas.

  • joe5 South Jordan, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 11:59 a.m.

    Truthseeker: You spewed a lot of data but I failed to see the opinion or point you were trying to make.

    Was showing the top 5 insurers made 7-8% profit instead of the industry-wide 4-5% supposed to refute my point that insurers were not making egregiously large profits? Would you invest in a company with an expected ROI of 8%?

    Was quoting James Hoffa's mea culpa and ignoring all his other comments supposed to refute my point that unions were among those seeking exceptions from the terms of the ACA? Do you deny they asked for concessions?

    Was your completely unsubstantiated and biased (and untrue) claim about liberals ability to be critical of their leaders supposed to erase the idea that even the most staunch Obama supporters are very critical of ACA and specifically how it is being implemented? Do you deny the criticism?

    Was you last rambling commentary supposed to refute the claim that the Democratic Senate is discussing delaying the implementation of ACA for a year? Do you deny the Democrats involvement in seriously discussing a delay?

    In short, I don't get your point or how it refutes any of my points.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 12:01 p.m.

    Actually the conservative GOP house and senate DO have good plans for health care reform. I have heard Mike Lee - Rand Paul - Ted Cruz - Paul Ryan and many others speak at length about their plans for making health care less expensive and more available without turning America into communist China as Obama is doing.

    Some of the proposals are...
    1. TORT REFORM - eliminating law suits which drive up cost
    2. Allow for the purchase of insurance nationwide creating competition which also lowers cost
    3. Creating a portfolio of health savings plans tailored for all income levels of Americans

    these are just a few of the measures and the good part they cost nothing to the taxpayer. You NEVER hear of these things on CNN or NBC because Obamacare is about Socialism and not solving healthcare as Ronald Reagan warned about all the way back in the early 1970's.

    America has turned into a welfare state which demands something for nothing like Greece and France. America will NOT survive on the course it is following...look no further than socialist Europe.

  • RedShirtCalTech Pasedena, CA
    Oct. 29, 2013 12:20 p.m.

    To "Ron" why does the GOP have to come up with a plan? Would you trust a decision by the janitor about how treat your cancer? The problem is that politicians don't understand the free market, so they keep trying to conrol it and bend the free market to their will (fascism). If the politicians simply repealed Obamacare, and let the free market work, then you would end up with real solutions because if company A can offer a cheaper and more attractive product than company B, they will so that they can generate profits.

    With the government policies that were added through Obamacare, company A must deliver the same product as company B. The only way to improve things is to find ways to make your product cost less. The Government doesn't like that, so they are controlling the price too.

    The best solutions to lowering healthcare costs have come from private industry, not government.

    To "Tyler D" ok, it isn't regulations that raise the cost of healthcare. It is mandates on insurance and taxes on medical devices combined with lawyers that sue doctors and use questionable science to justify their claims.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 12:42 p.m.

    Why is it the government’s problem to fix?

    Roland, Ranch, liberal larry, semi-strong
    The GOP learned from MA that the individual mandate did not work. Are dems incapable of learning?

    Hutterite,
    RIGHT!!!!! The GOP hijacked a single payer and forced us into the mandate. Since NONE of them voted for Obamcare. How does THAT happen?

    One vote
    BO, harry, and nancy were not and are not going to work with anyone – the other side can come along if they want – in the back of the bus. And that trio has promised to never compromise.

    Mman,
    NBC News reported that BO knew it was a lie when he said people could keep their current plans.

    More than 300,000 cancellation notices have been sent out in Florida, and another 180,000 in California. In New Jersey, the number of cancellations tops 800,000.

    According to NBC News, approximately 50 to 75 percent of the 14 million Americans who buy their health insurance individually should expect to receive a cancellation letter over the next year. That is an additional 7MM to 10.5MM canceled policies.

    BO LIED!

    DN, this does NOT violate your rules!!!!!!

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 12:59 p.m.

    "Part of the reason we have Obamacare is because Republicans could never come together on a sensible free-market solution of their own to the healthcare issue, ..." Problem is, there is no "free-market solution."

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 1:03 p.m.

    Moreover, the approach adopted by the Tea Party is one of sabotage. Sabotage Obamacare at every step. Meanwhile people are suffering. Low income Americans are cannon fodder for Republican sabotage. That's why the hatred of Americans for government is mostly focused on Republicans.

  • Semi-Strong Louisville, KY
    Oct. 29, 2013 1:22 p.m.

    Lost in DC,

    Because we made it our problem back in the Reagan years. It's called the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1986. You cannot be turned away from an emergency room due to lack of insurance. This allows people to freeload on the system and folks DO freeload on the system. Or they believe they self-insure (when adequate self-insurance is impossible for all but the truly wealthy). Eventually these folks come to the public. Either the taxpayers or to charity.

    Either way we are promoting people not being responsible for themselves and their families. As I said, I will let anyone off the hook who wants to sign a "let me die" contract that they will NEVER take money from the public (taxpayer or charity) for their health problems. Other than that, they need health insurance. If not, then they are playing roulette with my money. That is NOT conservative.

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 1:27 p.m.

    patriot -- tort reform, interstate insurance, and health savings plans would all ENHANCE the ACA. One doesn't need to throw out the ACA to get those reforms. Have Republicans shown an actual alternative?

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 29, 2013 1:34 p.m.

    @RedShirtCalTech – “The best solutions to lowering healthcare costs have come from private industry, not government.”

    That may be but do you have any evidence that would support this claim – like one country in the developed world that relies solely on the free market and private industry? If the free market is the best solution to healthcare, surely we would expect to see at least one country using this laissez faire model… just one.

    @RedShirtCalTech – “To "Tyler D" ok, it isn't regulations that raise the cost of healthcare. It is mandates on insurance and taxes on medical devices combined with lawyers that sue doctors…”

    I guess you didn’t read (or perhaps understand) the rest of my comments. See the quote below as one example of the canard your theories are (i.e., they’re all pikers compared to the real cost drivers).

    An excerpt from a recent Johns Hopkins study:

    “In their review of malpractice payouts over $1 million, the researchers say those payments added up to roughly $1.4 billion a year, making up far less than 1 percent of national medical expenditures in the United States.”

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 1:49 p.m.

    How entertaining to read Mike R. give another of his stirring renditions of the Constitution in one breath and then go off on his "one man" jag. Surely he blushes as he writes this stuff and we just can't see it. The "one man" here happens to be the chief justice of the Supremes and the Constitution does give that court the final say or am I giving it a liberal reading? "One man" didn't do anything. A duly appointed and Senate approved majority of the court said the law stands and that is the end of it until another court in the future decides to alter it. Until then you can entertain yourself reading the dissenting opinions on the matter and making your case again how Romney really won the election because he won a majority of counties in the USA.

  • RedShirtCalTech Pasedena, CA
    Oct. 29, 2013 2:26 p.m.

    To "marxist" I don't think you understand the "free market". If the solution comes from the government, then it isn't exactly a "free market" solution. That would be a fascist solution.

    For example, a few years ago some doctors tried to form a "healthcare club" where the members paid a set monthly fee and had full access to specific doctors for their healthcare. Their local governments shut them down because they said that the club was acting like an insurance company.

    IHC was opening "grocery store clinics" where you could see a medical professional for minor medical problems for $35 to $50 with no insurance required. That was another free market solution. Some clinics are surviving, but they struggle under the administrative weight imposed by government regulation.

    The free market has workable solutions. The government has work destroying solution.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Oct. 29, 2013 2:41 p.m.

    re:Joe5
    #1 the median profit margin for all industries in the U.S. is 2.2%. Health insurance companies not only support ACA, they stand to do very well when ACA is fully implemented. Question: what is the acceptable profit margin when one is denying access to medical treatment? (btw the pharmaceutical and medical equipment industries are among the highest profit margins in the U.S.)

    #2 Unions still support ACA. One concern they have is that they will lose union membership because people now have another option for obtaining health insurance (rather than relying on union "muscle.") Another concern was that some union health coverage falls under the "cadillac" level of coverage and will become subject to taxes.

    #3 Most/all of the criticism by liberals has been either a)the failure/problems of the federal website or b) that reform was not single payer or include at least a public option.

    Bottom line:
    States have the ability to enact their own tort reform--as many states already have.
    States also have the ability to devise their own universal health system.
    No doubt as is typical, when ACA is fully implemented there could be additional areas needing improvement.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 2:48 p.m.

    The reason Republicans couldn't come up with a truly free market healthcare solution is... we haven't had a truly free market healthcare system for over 50 years, and we have become addicted to the idea of getting someone else to pay for our healthcare (yes, even people with insurance). So there's no possible way to adopt a truly free market solution now.

    Part of the problem is we have a whole generation of people now that have never had to pay the full cost of a medical bill. Either their insurance pays it... or their union pays it... or the government pays... or charity pays it.

    If people were actually paying the bill... we would not be where we are today. Because people would care and at least try to find the most economical solution available... which drives costs down. Right now we don't care (because insurance is paying for it, not us).

    My parents remember when they actually paid their doctor bills. They were showing us the bill for their first baby last week. Dr bill ($45.00), Hospital room ($15.00), anthologists bill ($8.00), etc. Free market solution seemed to work back then... whats changed?

  • RedShirtCalTech Pasedena, CA
    Oct. 29, 2013 3:18 p.m.

    To "Tyler D" lets compare your 1% of expenses to what mandates have done to insurance prices.

    Lets see what regulation had done:

    From the AP "Study: Obama's health care law to raise claims cost 32 percent". Obamacare alone raised the cost of claims by 32%.

    Before the ACA was passed the CAHI did a report titled "HEALTH INSURANCE MANDATES
    IN THE STATES" and found that 20% to 50% of the cost of health insurance was due directly to mandates.

    According to the NIHCM the US spends $850 billion on health insurance per year. Since 20% to 50% is due to mandates, that means that government regulation accounts for $170 billion to $425 billion spent on health insurance. I think that is more than the malpractice payouts. That translates to 6.5% to 16.4% of total healthcare spending in the US.

    Sorry, but it looks like the mandates are a bigger problem than malpractice (yes malpractice should be fixed too). How about we take care of the biggest problem first?

    The world's leaders don't like the free market solutions because they have no control over them. Look at the US prior to the 1980's as an example.

  • Curmudgeon Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 3:23 p.m.

    Grover, you could have added that it's ironic (laughable, actually) how Mr. Richards extols the sacred, inviolate, and subject -to- only- his- narrow- interpretation "Supreme Law of the Land" (the Constitution), and then criticizes the ACA by reference to a mere public opinion poll purporting to show that 59% of the people don't want it, ignoring, of course, that it was passed by the legislative branch, signed into law by the executive, and ruled constitutional by the Supreme Court, all of which are Constitutional processes. And then he has the gall to praise Mike Lee for trying to dismantle that law by decidedly unconstitutional means.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    Oct. 29, 2013 3:40 p.m.

    As a Veteran,
    Anyone who hurts or attacks America, Americans, or United States citizens -- is an enemy of the State.

    Mike Lee and Ted Cruz have hurt America, Americans, and the credibility of the United States, therefore -- certainly falling into this catergory.

    It is my God given Oath to do everything I can to defend us from guys like this,
    ALL enemies, foreign OR Domestic.

  • RedShirtCalTech Pasedena, CA
    Oct. 29, 2013 3:42 p.m.

    To "Truthseeker" I don't think you get the news from any credible sources.

    If the insurance companies, why did Forbes report "Busted! Health Insurers Secretly Spent Huge To Defeat Health Care Reform While Pretending To Support Obamacare". I would call spending "$102.4 million spent over just 15 months" to defeat the ACA enough evidence to say that insurance companies do not support it.

    The Unions no longer support the ACA. See the Huffington Post article "Unions To White House On Obamacare, Taft-Hartley Plans: 'You Made The Problem, You Fix It'"

    According to the liberal leaders Harry Reid and Max Baccus and other have called the implementation a "train wreck". Reid things more should have been spent, but does not lament the lack of a single payer system.

    Why would we want a universal care system? Just look at what you get. You can kill people waiting for procedures, deny them proper medication, deny them care, have very poor care, run deficits in your healthcare system trying to provide everything for everybody, have doctors close their office due to yearly funding being used up, and so forth.

    Tell us, what way of neglecting sick people is acceptable?

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 4:12 p.m.

    Semi,
    "As I said, I will let anyone off the hook who wants to sign a "let me die" contract that they will NEVER take money from the public (taxpayer or charity) for their health problems. Other than that, they need health insurance. If not, then they are playing roulette with my money."

    False. Just because they do not have insurance does not mean they cannot or should not pay themselves.

    airnaut,
    BO, harry, and nancy have hurt America, and the credibility of the United States, therefore are enemies to America. BO has ordered drone strikes on US citizens abroad having them killed without trial. Angela Merkel is NOT satisfied with BO's continued spying in Europe and Europe is considering sanctions. Fulfill your oath and defend America from BO, harry, and nancy.

    Curmudgeon,
    Are you then championing the Fugitive Slave Act, passed by the Congress, signed by the POTUS, and ruled constitutional by the SCOTUS?

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 4:18 p.m.

    Sorry... I meant anesthesiologist, not "anthologists" (spell check mistake).

    The point being... they used to pay the bill out of pocket (free market system). Not today's, "who cares insurance will pay for it", system of paying for healthcare. And that tended to keep costs lower, because the consumer is watching and actually CARES what the bill was back then (because they had to pay it, not somebody else). Now nobody cares today (because they don't have to actually pay it). And when nobody's watching... costs can skyrocket. And when nobody cares... what's to keep doctor bills, medicine, and the cost for every medical item from escalating?

    Insurance companies try... but when the healthcare CONSUMER doesn't care... insurance companies can't really control people who just go to the doctor for anything because they won't have to pay the bill! They don't have a monopoly so they can't control what the doctor charges them. They can try, but basically their job is to pay the bill. So is it a big surprise they must keep raising the premiums to be able to keep paying the skyrocketing doctor bills.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 4:19 p.m.

    To "airnaut" the do you also consider the Obama Administration "an enemy of the State"?

    Obama has destroyed the credibility of the US across the globe either through his support of terrorists or by spying on everybody or by his appologies for US actions.

    Obama continually attacks US citizens and even signed into law a provision that allows him to indefinately detain US citizens.

    His economic policies have kept us in a recession 4 years after it was over.

    He has oversen 2 drops in the credit rating of the US government.

    According to the Joint Chiefs in the article "National Debt Poses Security Threat, Mullen Says" they say that the biggest military threat we have is the national debt. Obama has added $7 trillion to it, thus eroding the safety of the US.

    Obama has aided Al Qaeda in Libya and Syria.

    Obama's use of warrentless wiretapps and email probing has destroyed any credibility given to the constitutional guarantee of no search of our private things without a warrant.

    Are you going to defend us against Obama.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 4:42 p.m.

    airnaut

    Re Anyone who hurts or attacks America, Americans, or United States citizens -- is an enemy of the State"...

    By your definition Democrats would also be "enemies of the State".

    Remember when they were attacking President Bush and emboldening our enemies in the war on terrorism??

    Democrats have also done things that hurt America, Americans, or US Citizens. No... Democrats are not perfect either.

    Put down the coolaid and realize that there's not much difference (Democrat or Republican, neither is perfect). Neither group are the total patriots and the other UN-American villains. That's just coolaid inspired rhetoric talkin, not reality.

    Remember when you were blasting Republicans for wrapping themselves in the flag when Bush was President and criticizing Republican supporters who were calling Democrats trying to defund the war in Afghanistan and selling-out our troops "un-American"? Both parties are about the same. When you do what Republicans did just a few years ago... you're no better than they were then.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 5:06 p.m.

    re:marxist

    You are correct about people never wanting to create a free market solution to fix health care and there is no question our current health care costs are way out of control. I do think however - all ideology and politics aside - we are smart enough to figure this out. I think the health savings portfolio idea is great and so is being able to buy insurance across state lines. Tort reform and getting rid of all of the insane law suits doctors and insurance companies face has been a bi-partisan desire for a long time and this will dramatically lower costs. What we are seeing right now with Obamacare is people - liberals and conservatives and everyone in between are outraged at the sticker shock prices at the exchanges as well as not having choice to decide things. Getting kicked off your health care plan and doctor that you have had for 20 years is a real kick in the gut not to mention being forced to carry maturity when you are 60 years old. We can do better than this.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Oct. 29, 2013 5:23 p.m.

    @patriot
    Cedar Hills, UT

    Actually the conservative GOP house and senate DO have good plans for health care reform. I have heard Mike Lee - Rand Paul - Ted Cruz - Paul Ryan and many others speak at length about their plans for making health care less expensive and more available without turning America into communist China as Obama is doing.

    Some of the proposals are...
    1. TORT REFORM - eliminating law suits which drive up cost
    2. Allow for the purchase of insurance nationwide creating competition which also lowers cost
    3. Creating a portfolio of health savings plans tailored for all income levels of Americans

    ========

    Actually,
    The ACA [Obamacare] already has all that included and much, much MORE.

    GOP - the party of NO.
    Too little [actually nothing], too late.

  • Alfred Phoenix, AZ
    Oct. 29, 2013 6:14 p.m.

    @Semi-Strong:
    "You cannot be turned away from an emergency room due to lack of insurance."

    True, but the emergency room doesn't have to hook the patient up to ten monitoring machines and have a dozen doctors and nurses see you for an arrant hangnail. That's the problem.

    "As I said, I will let anyone off the hook who wants to sign a 'let me die contract'..."

    With Obamacare it's not 'let me die.' If you're old and/or of no further use to society it will be 'go home, take a painkiller, and die' (i.e., death panels). Obama's own words, more or less.

    @2 bits:
    "...we have become addicted to the idea of getting someone else to pay for our healthcare..."

    Whoa! Where do you suspect the insurance company or the government gets the money to pay for healthcare? Think about it.

    @airnaut:
    "Anyone who hurts or attacks America, Americans, or United States citizens -- is an enemy of the State."

    You shouldn't speak of Barack Hussein Obama, Harry Reid, and Nancy Peloci that way. Not very respectful, even if true.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    Oct. 29, 2013 7:25 p.m.

    Republicans did NOT write the ACA bill (obamacare).

    The republicans did NOT create in any fashion or form, the ACA.

    The ACA is and extreme left written bill.

    The ACA was created by extreme left organizations funded by George Soros.

    THE ACA was then passed in middle of night with legislative tricks by the democrats.

    Can the left stop with the lies now about the origin of the ACA or Obamacare?

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Oct. 29, 2013 8:14 p.m.

    This is Semi-Strong

    RedShirtCalTech,

    Your point about neglecting sick people is cogent. So what is it about the pre-ACA way of neglecting sick people that was acceptable? Please don't say they weren't neglected.

    Alfred,

    Okay, but neither of your points really address what I was saying. BTW, I have never seen an "emergency room . . . hook the patient up to ten monitoring machines and have a dozen doctors and nurses see you for an arrant (sic) hangnail." And we already have "death panels" at the insurance companies.

    The Truth,

    Please search for Conservative "Think Tank, Promoted the Individual Mandate" in Forbes (hardly a bunch of liberals there). The individual mandate (the soul of Obamacare) came from the conservative Heritage Foundation.

  • Alfred Phoenix, AZ
    Oct. 30, 2013 1:17 a.m.

    @Twin Lights:
    "BTW, I have never seen an 'emergency room . . . hook the patient up to ten monitoring machines and have a dozen doctors and nurses see you for an arrant (sic) hangnail.'"

    Exaggeration is often a useful tool in making a point.

    If poor folk are going to the emergency room for all their healthcare needs, they must surely be going there for minor stuff like the sniffles... or an arrant* hangnail... where an single aspirin runs about 20 bucks.

    "And we already have 'death panels' at the insurance companies."

    Yes, but the government making those sinister decisions is not very comforting... and conjures up Germany's decider re the fate of eight million German citizens.

    * Origin 1350–1400; Middle English, variant of errant

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Oct. 30, 2013 7:30 a.m.

    To "Twin Lights" the biggest difference is choice. Pre-ACA, if I chose to not obtain insurance, that was my choice and my risk. With the ACA I no longer have that choice.

    The ACA is nothing more than the government saying that they know better than you do how to run your life. I reject that idea.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Oct. 30, 2013 8:16 a.m.

    Alfred,

    From Merriam Webster:
    Arrant: being notoriously without moderation : extreme
    Errant: erring or straying from the proper course or standards.

    Do folks go to the emergency room when other options would be much cheaper? Sure. Why? No health insurance.

    RedShirt,

    Precisely. With ACA you MUST have insurance. No freeloading on the system. Or, you can take my "let me die" contract offer . . .

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Oct. 30, 2013 9:44 a.m.

    To "Twin Lights" I am not talking freeloading. I am saying that I choose for myself if I have insurance. I could save my money and pay for all of my treatment with cash.

    The question remains, what gives the government the right to tell me how to live my life? There is no death panel, nor is there anybody deciding what treatments I can get or cannot get.

    Why do you want to limit freedom and remove choices?

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 30, 2013 10:09 a.m.

    @RedShirt – “The question remains, what gives the government the right to tell me how to live my life? Why do you want to limit freedom and remove choices?”

    I’m convinced… and starting today I will not stop for anymore tyrannical red lights, will toss my half-eaten lunch out the window, will strut right past the freedom destroying TSA security on the way to my comfortable airline seat where immediately upon sitting down I will light up a Cuban cigar.

    Don’t Tread On Me!

  • RedShirtMIT Cambridge, MA
    Oct. 30, 2013 11:02 a.m.

    To "Tyler D" you are just being a simpleton. Anybody with half a brain knows that your rights end when they infringe on others. If I choose to not buy insurance, that has no effect on others. However, tossing garbage out the window poses a health hazard to others. You are right about the TSA. They are freedom destroying. They assume that you are guilty until proven innocent while they search your belongings without a warrant.

    Why won't you answer the simple questions about why you want to force people to do something they don't want to do?

    What gives the government the right to tell me how to live my life? Why do you want to limit freedom and remove choices?

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Oct. 30, 2013 11:04 a.m.

    RedShirt,

    You're not reading me correctly. I am MORE than willing to let you do whatever you want. If you will sign a contract that says you will refuse ALL monies from ANY source other than your immediate family to deal with issues related to an illness. That you will die rather than take a dime of taxpayer or charitable money. If so, I am perfectly okay with you having no insurance.

    Note that self insurance is a myth if you don't have about a cool $500K or so in the bank (and more coming in). Why? Because one severe illness could eat away a mere $100K or $200K in just a few days. If they don't have a true fortune to back them up, folks who say they self insure are just betting. And, when push comes to shove, they will go to the taxpayers or to charity to ask for help (or their family will).

    So . . . Sign the contract and it is okay by me whatever you do. Without it, you are spinning the roulette wheel with my money as back up.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 30, 2013 11:33 a.m.

    @RedShirtMIT – “To "Tyler D" you are just being a simpleton.”

    Nice…

    And are you going to address Twin’s pointed question (why you’re not buying insurance does in fact affect others) or just keep sounding like a ultra-conservative Hallmark card?

    Why do you prefer platitudes over details?

    Why are you promoting a notion of freedom that seems to be free of responsibility? What gives you the right to impact others in negative ways?

    Why do you want others to clean up your mess?

    [sarcasm on]
    Why do you hate America?
    [sarcasm off]

  • RedShirtMIT Cambridge, MA
    Oct. 30, 2013 2:05 p.m.

    To "Tyler D" who are wrong. If I choose to not buy insurance and pay for everything out of pocket, and if I can't pay for it out of pocket I don't get the service I am not affecting others.

    I never said that I was free from responsibility. In fact I said that I was being responsible by paying for my care myself.

    Didn't you read my post at 9:44 clearly. I was quite clear that I was being responsible.

    Either way, if I have insurance or not I am betting. With insurance I am betting that my medical needs will meet or exceed my premiums. Usually I lose that bet.

    Why do you think you can run my life better than I can?

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 30, 2013 3:41 p.m.

    Just because Democrats walk in lock-step and act like drones... doesn't make them right!

    What ever happened to the need for DIVERSITY of thought? Have you Democrats given up on that completely?

    If so... why do you CRITICIZE Republicans for having some diversity? And PRAISE Democrats for acting like drones. All doing the same thing, saying the same thing, acting the same way... that's not diversity. What happened to the liberals I grew up with... that questioned everything? They don't exist anymore. They are only interested in branding, and unity, and conformity, and being "on-message". What happened to the rebel liberals?

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    Oct. 30, 2013 6:31 p.m.

    @Twin Lights

    'promote' is not the same as 'wrote'.

    And it was quite clear to everyone the whole thing would not work without a mandate that would fund it.

    I am not republican so do not care what what the establishment republicans "promoted", They were wrong and the extreme left is wrong.

    The fact remains they didn't write it, and furthermore that it was just plain bad for America.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Oct. 30, 2013 8:16 p.m.

    The Truth,

    From the Heritage Foundation's web page: "Founded in 1973, The Heritage Foundation is a research and educational institution - a think tank - whose mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense."

    The individual mandate was introduced in a few pieces of failed legislation introduced by Republican lawmakers in 1993.

    The mandate was a conservative idea (still is - it pushes folks to be self reliant vs. depend on the govt.) and was first introduced by Republicans.

    It is what it is.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Oct. 31, 2013 1:23 p.m.

    @Alfred
    Phoenix, AZ

    Yes, but the government making those sinister decisions is not very comforting... and conjures up Germanys deciding the fate of eight million German citizens.

    =======

    Alfred --
    WWI history 101:

    German law was passed for the elimination of "undesiraibles" to German Society.

    The Nazi party then used this stating this applied to the terminally ill who were costing the German taxpayers too much money with no hope of a full or meaning ful recovery.
    [Money wasted to a hopeless cause.]

    That played so well, they later expanded that interpretion to mean the elimination of other "undesireables" to their society:

    the poor,
    the homeless,
    the alcoholics and drug addicts,
    the liberals,
    the communists,
    the gays,
    the immigrants,
    and of course the Jews.

    You might want to study up as to which side of the political spectrum the Nazis come from.

  • RedShirtUofU Andoria, UT
    Nov. 1, 2013 8:10 a.m.

    To "Open Minded Mormon" we know what side of the political spectrum the Nazis came from. It is the same side that has given us the ACA and so many other failed social welfare programs.

  • Y-Ask-Y? Provo, UT
    Nov. 1, 2013 9:48 a.m.

    The hypocrisy of right wing conservative "Partiers" is astounding. Even among my own conservative extended family members, they talk the Hannity-esque talk and throw around the Limbaugh-ish buzzwords and zingers, but when they had children with health problems, they ran right to the government; when they lost their jobs in this "free market" economy in Utah, they immediately filed for unemployment. They preach that Churches and charities should take care of the poor and needy, but when they had a serious medical issue and went to the Church, they were turned away and sent to the government. Yet they still harangue against Obama and liberal Democrats - the political tradition without which they would either be indentured servants, homeless, dead, or all three!