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Published: Tuesday, Oct. 29 2013 12:00 a.m. MDT

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RedShirtCalTech
Pasedena, CA

To "Truthseeker" I don't think you get the news from any credible sources.

If the insurance companies, why did Forbes report "Busted! Health Insurers Secretly Spent Huge To Defeat Health Care Reform While Pretending To Support Obamacare". I would call spending "$102.4 million spent over just 15 months" to defeat the ACA enough evidence to say that insurance companies do not support it.

The Unions no longer support the ACA. See the Huffington Post article "Unions To White House On Obamacare, Taft-Hartley Plans: 'You Made The Problem, You Fix It'"

According to the liberal leaders Harry Reid and Max Baccus and other have called the implementation a "train wreck". Reid things more should have been spent, but does not lament the lack of a single payer system.

Why would we want a universal care system? Just look at what you get. You can kill people waiting for procedures, deny them proper medication, deny them care, have very poor care, run deficits in your healthcare system trying to provide everything for everybody, have doctors close their office due to yearly funding being used up, and so forth.

Tell us, what way of neglecting sick people is acceptable?

VST
Bountiful, UT

@wrz said, “The truth is there has been zero, nil, nada national healthcare bills introduced in the US Congress by Republicans.”

Contrary to what you stated, the Republicans have put forth an alternative for Healthcare reform. It is titled the "Patients' Choice Act" and was originally proposed in the House in 2009 as an alternative to the current Obamacare law. Obviously, under Pelosi's control back then, it never saw the "light of day." It was logged as H.R. 2520 (111th).

Go look it up.

As for others posting here who have suggested that Medicare is part of the Obamacare umbrella, I have a question:

If this is true, how is the additional cost going to be financed under Obamacare?

lost in DC
West Jordan, UT

Semi,
"As I said, I will let anyone off the hook who wants to sign a "let me die" contract that they will NEVER take money from the public (taxpayer or charity) for their health problems. Other than that, they need health insurance. If not, then they are playing roulette with my money."

False. Just because they do not have insurance does not mean they cannot or should not pay themselves.

airnaut,
BO, harry, and nancy have hurt America, and the credibility of the United States, therefore are enemies to America. BO has ordered drone strikes on US citizens abroad having them killed without trial. Angela Merkel is NOT satisfied with BO's continued spying in Europe and Europe is considering sanctions. Fulfill your oath and defend America from BO, harry, and nancy.

Curmudgeon,
Are you then championing the Fugitive Slave Act, passed by the Congress, signed by the POTUS, and ruled constitutional by the SCOTUS?

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Sorry... I meant anesthesiologist, not "anthologists" (spell check mistake).

The point being... they used to pay the bill out of pocket (free market system). Not today's, "who cares insurance will pay for it", system of paying for healthcare. And that tended to keep costs lower, because the consumer is watching and actually CARES what the bill was back then (because they had to pay it, not somebody else). Now nobody cares today (because they don't have to actually pay it). And when nobody's watching... costs can skyrocket. And when nobody cares... what's to keep doctor bills, medicine, and the cost for every medical item from escalating?

Insurance companies try... but when the healthcare CONSUMER doesn't care... insurance companies can't really control people who just go to the doctor for anything because they won't have to pay the bill! They don't have a monopoly so they can't control what the doctor charges them. They can try, but basically their job is to pay the bill. So is it a big surprise they must keep raising the premiums to be able to keep paying the skyrocketing doctor bills.

RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

To "airnaut" the do you also consider the Obama Administration "an enemy of the State"?

Obama has destroyed the credibility of the US across the globe either through his support of terrorists or by spying on everybody or by his appologies for US actions.

Obama continually attacks US citizens and even signed into law a provision that allows him to indefinately detain US citizens.

His economic policies have kept us in a recession 4 years after it was over.

He has oversen 2 drops in the credit rating of the US government.

According to the Joint Chiefs in the article "National Debt Poses Security Threat, Mullen Says" they say that the biggest military threat we have is the national debt. Obama has added $7 trillion to it, thus eroding the safety of the US.

Obama has aided Al Qaeda in Libya and Syria.

Obama's use of warrentless wiretapps and email probing has destroyed any credibility given to the constitutional guarantee of no search of our private things without a warrant.

Are you going to defend us against Obama.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

airnaut

Re Anyone who hurts or attacks America, Americans, or United States citizens -- is an enemy of the State"...

By your definition Democrats would also be "enemies of the State".

Remember when they were attacking President Bush and emboldening our enemies in the war on terrorism??

Democrats have also done things that hurt America, Americans, or US Citizens. No... Democrats are not perfect either.

Put down the coolaid and realize that there's not much difference (Democrat or Republican, neither is perfect). Neither group are the total patriots and the other UN-American villains. That's just coolaid inspired rhetoric talkin, not reality.

Remember when you were blasting Republicans for wrapping themselves in the flag when Bush was President and criticizing Republican supporters who were calling Democrats trying to defund the war in Afghanistan and selling-out our troops "un-American"? Both parties are about the same. When you do what Republicans did just a few years ago... you're no better than they were then.

patriot
Cedar Hills, UT

re:marxist

You are correct about people never wanting to create a free market solution to fix health care and there is no question our current health care costs are way out of control. I do think however - all ideology and politics aside - we are smart enough to figure this out. I think the health savings portfolio idea is great and so is being able to buy insurance across state lines. Tort reform and getting rid of all of the insane law suits doctors and insurance companies face has been a bi-partisan desire for a long time and this will dramatically lower costs. What we are seeing right now with Obamacare is people - liberals and conservatives and everyone in between are outraged at the sticker shock prices at the exchanges as well as not having choice to decide things. Getting kicked off your health care plan and doctor that you have had for 20 years is a real kick in the gut not to mention being forced to carry maturity when you are 60 years old. We can do better than this.

Open Minded Mormon
Everett, 00

@patriot
Cedar Hills, UT

Actually the conservative GOP house and senate DO have good plans for health care reform. I have heard Mike Lee - Rand Paul - Ted Cruz - Paul Ryan and many others speak at length about their plans for making health care less expensive and more available without turning America into communist China as Obama is doing.

Some of the proposals are...
1. TORT REFORM - eliminating law suits which drive up cost
2. Allow for the purchase of insurance nationwide creating competition which also lowers cost
3. Creating a portfolio of health savings plans tailored for all income levels of Americans

========

Actually,
The ACA [Obamacare] already has all that included and much, much MORE.

GOP - the party of NO.
Too little [actually nothing], too late.

Alfred
Phoenix, AZ

@Semi-Strong:
"You cannot be turned away from an emergency room due to lack of insurance."

True, but the emergency room doesn't have to hook the patient up to ten monitoring machines and have a dozen doctors and nurses see you for an arrant hangnail. That's the problem.

"As I said, I will let anyone off the hook who wants to sign a 'let me die contract'..."

With Obamacare it's not 'let me die.' If you're old and/or of no further use to society it will be 'go home, take a painkiller, and die' (i.e., death panels). Obama's own words, more or less.

@2 bits:
"...we have become addicted to the idea of getting someone else to pay for our healthcare..."

Whoa! Where do you suspect the insurance company or the government gets the money to pay for healthcare? Think about it.

@airnaut:
"Anyone who hurts or attacks America, Americans, or United States citizens -- is an enemy of the State."

You shouldn't speak of Barack Hussein Obama, Harry Reid, and Nancy Peloci that way. Not very respectful, even if true.

the truth
Holladay, UT

Republicans did NOT write the ACA bill (obamacare).

The republicans did NOT create in any fashion or form, the ACA.

The ACA is and extreme left written bill.

The ACA was created by extreme left organizations funded by George Soros.

THE ACA was then passed in middle of night with legislative tricks by the democrats.

Can the left stop with the lies now about the origin of the ACA or Obamacare?

Twin Lights
Louisville, KY

This is Semi-Strong

RedShirtCalTech,

Your point about neglecting sick people is cogent. So what is it about the pre-ACA way of neglecting sick people that was acceptable? Please don't say they weren't neglected.

Alfred,

Okay, but neither of your points really address what I was saying. BTW, I have never seen an "emergency room . . . hook the patient up to ten monitoring machines and have a dozen doctors and nurses see you for an arrant (sic) hangnail." And we already have "death panels" at the insurance companies.

The Truth,

Please search for Conservative "Think Tank, Promoted the Individual Mandate" in Forbes (hardly a bunch of liberals there). The individual mandate (the soul of Obamacare) came from the conservative Heritage Foundation.

Alfred
Phoenix, AZ

@Twin Lights:
"BTW, I have never seen an 'emergency room . . . hook the patient up to ten monitoring machines and have a dozen doctors and nurses see you for an arrant (sic) hangnail.'"

Exaggeration is often a useful tool in making a point.

If poor folk are going to the emergency room for all their healthcare needs, they must surely be going there for minor stuff like the sniffles... or an arrant* hangnail... where an single aspirin runs about 20 bucks.

"And we already have 'death panels' at the insurance companies."

Yes, but the government making those sinister decisions is not very comforting... and conjures up Germany's decider re the fate of eight million German citizens.

* Origin 1350–1400; Middle English, variant of errant

RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

To "Twin Lights" the biggest difference is choice. Pre-ACA, if I chose to not obtain insurance, that was my choice and my risk. With the ACA I no longer have that choice.

The ACA is nothing more than the government saying that they know better than you do how to run your life. I reject that idea.

Twin Lights
Louisville, KY

Alfred,

From Merriam Webster:
Arrant: being notoriously without moderation : extreme
Errant: erring or straying from the proper course or standards.

Do folks go to the emergency room when other options would be much cheaper? Sure. Why? No health insurance.

RedShirt,

Precisely. With ACA you MUST have insurance. No freeloading on the system. Or, you can take my "let me die" contract offer . . .

RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

To "Twin Lights" I am not talking freeloading. I am saying that I choose for myself if I have insurance. I could save my money and pay for all of my treatment with cash.

The question remains, what gives the government the right to tell me how to live my life? There is no death panel, nor is there anybody deciding what treatments I can get or cannot get.

Why do you want to limit freedom and remove choices?

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@RedShirt – “The question remains, what gives the government the right to tell me how to live my life? Why do you want to limit freedom and remove choices?”

I’m convinced… and starting today I will not stop for anymore tyrannical red lights, will toss my half-eaten lunch out the window, will strut right past the freedom destroying TSA security on the way to my comfortable airline seat where immediately upon sitting down I will light up a Cuban cigar.

Don’t Tread On Me!

RedShirtMIT
Cambridge, MA

To "Tyler D" you are just being a simpleton. Anybody with half a brain knows that your rights end when they infringe on others. If I choose to not buy insurance, that has no effect on others. However, tossing garbage out the window poses a health hazard to others. You are right about the TSA. They are freedom destroying. They assume that you are guilty until proven innocent while they search your belongings without a warrant.

Why won't you answer the simple questions about why you want to force people to do something they don't want to do?

What gives the government the right to tell me how to live my life? Why do you want to limit freedom and remove choices?

Twin Lights
Louisville, KY

RedShirt,

You're not reading me correctly. I am MORE than willing to let you do whatever you want. If you will sign a contract that says you will refuse ALL monies from ANY source other than your immediate family to deal with issues related to an illness. That you will die rather than take a dime of taxpayer or charitable money. If so, I am perfectly okay with you having no insurance.

Note that self insurance is a myth if you don't have about a cool $500K or so in the bank (and more coming in). Why? Because one severe illness could eat away a mere $100K or $200K in just a few days. If they don't have a true fortune to back them up, folks who say they self insure are just betting. And, when push comes to shove, they will go to the taxpayers or to charity to ask for help (or their family will).

So . . . Sign the contract and it is okay by me whatever you do. Without it, you are spinning the roulette wheel with my money as back up.

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@RedShirtMIT – “To "Tyler D" you are just being a simpleton.”

Nice…

And are you going to address Twin’s pointed question (why you’re not buying insurance does in fact affect others) or just keep sounding like a ultra-conservative Hallmark card?

Why do you prefer platitudes over details?

Why are you promoting a notion of freedom that seems to be free of responsibility? What gives you the right to impact others in negative ways?

Why do you want others to clean up your mess?

[sarcasm on]
Why do you hate America?
[sarcasm off]

RedShirtMIT
Cambridge, MA

To "Tyler D" who are wrong. If I choose to not buy insurance and pay for everything out of pocket, and if I can't pay for it out of pocket I don't get the service I am not affecting others.

I never said that I was free from responsibility. In fact I said that I was being responsible by paying for my care myself.

Didn't you read my post at 9:44 clearly. I was quite clear that I was being responsible.

Either way, if I have insurance or not I am betting. With insurance I am betting that my medical needs will meet or exceed my premiums. Usually I lose that bet.

Why do you think you can run my life better than I can?

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