Verdad,You are getting closer. Keep studying...
"The Scientist" continues to be mistaken.The roots of the
Passover seder or meal clearly stretch back to Exodus 12, which is pre-temple,
and plainly involve private dwellings from the start. And the so-called
"Last Supper," celebrated by Jesus and his apostles in a private
dwelling while the temple still stood in Jerusalem was, as most scholars
recognize, very likely a Passover seder.Under ideal conditions,
according to the Bible, when the temple was functioning a lamb was to be
sacrificed there and then consumed (almost certainly at home) that evening. But
that was the theoretical ideal, as it was held by the temple priesthood who are
probably responsible for the relevant biblical materials. It's extremely
doubtful (as the eminent non-LDS archaeologist William Dever pointed out in
Logan just last week) that the entire population of Israel came together in
Jerusalem from the Galilee and the Negev, from the coast and from the mountain
villages, for the three annual great festivals. There's certainly no
archaeological evidence for it.
Sharrona,Twin Lights here.My bad on the Origen thing. I
assume that RHT picked up on your "mystical body" statement and thereby
referenced Origen. And, you have brought Origen up in other posts so I just
went with RHT's comment. Mea culpa.Now, are you going to
address my temple questions or not?
BJ-HP"When the Lord returns all temples will be active 24 hours
a day. " How do you know that? I will bet everything I own that
it won't happen in our lifetimes. I would bet it won't happen longer
then that, but I won't be around to see it.
Sharrona,Reference Red Headed Stranger. You brought up Origen as
authoritative. Was he or wasn't he? If he was, then you have to respond
to the issue raised by RHT. If he was not, then why did you mention him and
does this mean you will not be citing Origen in any future posts?Reference Christ and the temple. Yes, Christ certainly taught that if they
destroyed his body (per John "But he spake of the temple of his body")
that he would resurrect it.The simply question I have asked you is,
if Christ replaced the temple and it no longer filled any role, why did he go
there? Why did he cleanse it? Why did his disciples go there even after his
resurrection? All these actions indicate the temple still had an important role
in early Christianity.Please just answer the questions without
citations that are not on point.
bj-hpWow. You scathe somebody else that doesn't believe in your
temples? I think you may need to look yourself in the mirror and rethink things.
It is people like you that confirm to others that have left the church that they
made the right decision. Why would anybody want to be a part of an organization
that belittles those who don't believe in their stories?
@Red Headed Stranger, Origen? believed in the Platonic pre-existence and
transmigration of souls. The Council of Constantinople .. in 453 CE posthumously
excommunicated him. Mormon Priesthood authority, (D&C 110: 1-16)
Elias and Elijah appear to Joseph Smith, but in the Bible they are the same
person. The KJV translators transliterated Elijah to Elias because there
isn’t a Greek character for the English letter J.To avoid
confusion, modern translations: NIV, NJKV, and NASB have Elijah instead of
Elias in(Mt 11:14; Luke 1:17)JS relied on the poor KJV.RE: Twin
Lights, why did Jesus cleanse it? “What sign do You show to us, since
You do these things?” John revealed that the Lord responded by pointing
to His future Resurrection: “Destroy this temple=(Jesus), and in
three days I will raise it up” (John 2:19; 2:22), #1 reason.The Shekinah glory, Left Solomon’s Temple due to Israel’s sin
(Eze. 8:4-6; 9:3; 10:4, 18-19). Future…. the Lord God Almighty and the
Lamb ‘are the temple’… ,“(Rev. 21:22-23); 22:5+)“
Sharrona,Check your timeline. .John 18:20 doesn't negate
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. . .
the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, “ (John
16:12,25)He did speak to them in secret AFTER the resurrection.Thank you for referencing Origen, he allows me to close this discussion
without anymore debate. The anti-Christian Celsus charged Christians with
"secret teachings", Origen wrote, " . . .to speak of the Christian
doctrine as a secret system, is altogether absurd. But that there should be
certain doctrines, not made known to the multitude, which are (revealed) after
the exoteric ones have been taught, is not a peculiarity of Christianity alone,
but also of philosophic systems, in which certain truths are exoteric and others
esoteric." ANF4:399You can find the reference by copying and pasting
the reference in a search engine. Origen also wrote:". .
.whoever is pure not only from all defilement, but from what are regarded as
lesser transgressions, let him be boldly initiated in the mysteries of Jesus,
which properly are made known only to the holy and the pure."ANF4:488
sharrona,I have neither time nor space to answer your entire
statement other than there are evidences of LDS doctrine in the first
century.But back to the point of the temple (because you keep
veering away from this). If the temple was no longer important with the coming
of Christ, why did he cleanse it? Why was it important to him? Why did his
disciples continue to go to the temple even after his death and resurrection?
When the Lord returns all temples will be active 24 hours a day. The work of the
Lord will progress until all of God's children have received the blessings
of the temple.We must remember that when Joseph Smith restored the
Temple Ordinances that he did so with the complete authorization of the Lord
Jesus Christ. The temple is the Lord's House and all temples from
Solomon's temple to all the Temples today are dedicated to The Lord. As
mentioned Joseph Smith Restored the temple ordinances. There were stone masons
who were commissioned to build the temple. Each possibly received the
ordinances of the temple. Even then the temple ordinances were sacred and not
mentioned in their entirety in the scriptures. However, just as the washing and
anointings were done in the tabernacle and temple, so they are done today. Just
as not everyone was allowed in the temple in ancient times, only those in good
standing today are authorized within the walls of the temple. So again we see
the work of the Lord for all of his children are done within the walls of the
temple. Thank you Mr. Peterson for the enlightening article.
Verdad wrote:"Notwithstanding Michigander's assurance,
above, that The Scientist is "100% correct," Passover seders were and
are conducted in Jewish homes, not in the temple. They're ritualized meals,
not temple liturgy."Notwithstanding some people's tendency
to make their lack of knowledge explicit, the Passover Seder and it's
associated ritualized meal were moved to Jewish homes only AFTER the destruction
of the Temple.Please read my "100% correct" statement more
carefully, and take time to educate yourselves.
RE: Red Headed Stranger. Jesus "Everyone knows what I teach. I have
preached regularly in the synagogues and the Temple, where the people gather. I
have ’Not Spoken in Secret’.(John 18:20)It’s clear
from chapters 8-10 of Hebrews, that in his death, Jesus fulfilled the priesthood
typology of the O. T. in his own blood, he puts an end to the sacrificial
system. But,… those things which existed prior to Moses'
day, namely, Sacrifice, will be continued(HofC v.4 p. 211-12).RE:
Twin Lights , It can be demonstrated easily that early Church writers, such as
Ignatius of Antioch, Eusebius, Clement of Rome, and Polycarp, had no conception
of Mormon doctrine, and they knew nothing of a "great apostasy." Nowhere in their writings can one find references to Christians
embracing any of the peculiarly Mormon doctrines, such as polytheism, polygamy,
celestial marriage, and temple ceremonies. If the Church of the apostolic age
was the prototype of today’s Mormon church, it must have had all these
beliefs and practices. But why is there no evidence of them in the early
centuries, before the alleged apostasy began?
2 Timothy 3:7 fits the majority of the LDS critics' comments: "Ever
learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." Critics,
please be careful not to reject something because your mind-set has not let you
experience it for yourself. The Lord himself does not share all his intentions
openly until an individual is ready to receive it. Much precedent exists for
this concept: Christ's telling of parables, his frequent counsel to
"tell no man", his limited appearances to only the most devout after his
resurrection, and so forth. 1 Corinthians 2:9 is also relevant: "Eye hath
not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things
which God hath prepared for them that love him."Until an individual
makes the extremely difficult commitment to search out and follow the
Lord's will, they will never know all the truth. It's just that
Notwithstanding Michigander's assurance, above, that The Scientist is
"100% correct," Passover seders were and are conducted in Jewish homes,
not in the temple. They're ritualized meals, not temple liturgy.
Red Headed Stranger said:" ... if the temple were no longer of
any worth why then did Peter, John and Paul go to it so often after
Christ's death? (Acts 3:1-2, 5:42, 21:30, 22:17, 24:18)."Because that is where large numbers of the Jewish people were gathered and the
Apostles Peter, John, and Paul needed to preach in power the gospel of Jesus
Christ to them to try and turn them from the errors of their ways. He certainly
was not there to do false ceremonies for his dead ancestors.
Christ's eternal sacrifice has parted the veil for us, and the Savior has
fulfilled the law. There is no need to restore the Mosaic laws of sacrifice,
and yet Latter-day Saints have deconstructed that fulfillment of the law and
imposed the same type of Old Testament burdens that the Pharisees were guilty
of. There is also no salvation from forbidden "secret combinations"
which have their roots in the occult and freemasonry, no matter how beautiful
the temple's appearance. Salvation comes only by partaking of
Christ's flesh and blood. There is NO other way. He is the true temple
which we worship, and he calls us to become holy temples as well. Mormons are
like the early disciples who did not comprehend the meaning of Jesus' Bread
of Life sermon and "walked no more with him;" but instead, have
introduced the idea there's some secret knowledge that God kept from us
after he gave us His Son and established His church. It is not rational,
reasonable, nor scriptural.
Maybe, the concept of worship in the temple is so important that it is deeply
woven into the language of the New Testament, that it was used symbolically as
emphasis, not to preclude.And funny, if the temple were no longer of
any worth why then did Peter, John and Paul go to it so often after
Christ's death? (Acts 3:1-2, 5:42, 21:30, 22:17, 24:18)Just as
it was a sin for the Jews to almost worship the temple instead of the Lord Jesus
Christ, it is a sin to completely denigrate the temple's purpose. Like
Hugh Nibley used to say, (these symbols) "are signs. They aren't the
thing itself, instead they point to the thing." As someone who has entered
into an LDS temple, I will tell you that the symbols used point to Christ.
Virtually all of them. I didn't see that when I was a young man; I see
that much more clearly now. Please, do not mock sacred things. There was still "many things" (more information) that the apostles
received after Christ's death and resurrection (John 16:12,25 Acts 1:3)
Not everything was intended for public consumption.
Sharrona,First of all, please make sure that your analysis and
conclusions actually follow from the evidence that you cite.Next,
are you implying that there is only one proper use of the word "temple"?
That it can mean only what you think that it means, and that all other meanings
are wrong? For example is the only acceptable use of the word "temple"
means Christ's body? (John 2:21) Or only the believer's body? (1 Cor
3:17) Or the building known as Herod's temple (Matt 21:12) Or Christ's
community of believers on earth (Eph 2:21) or the temple which God dwells on
high on His throne (Rev 16:17). As it was used in multiple ways,
clearly the writers of the New Testament didn't mean that one meaning was
better than another or that it precluded its use in another way. Or, just
because that we say that the body is a temple, should make sacred our thinking
of the body, rather than destroy our feelings about the physical House of the
Lord here on earth.
Michigander,"....The Most High God dwelleth not in temples made
with hands" states the Apostle Paul and the martyr Stephen in the book of
Acts. The days of temple building have been over forever since 30
death, the temple continued to be important to Jesus’ followers in
Jerusalem. Jesus’ brother James remained closely associated with the
temple until his own martyrdom. The temple era came to an abrupt end when the
temple itself was destroyed by Rome in 72 CE and the vanquished Jews were in no
position to rebuild it.In consequence, the temple became
marginalized in tradition and literature by the rising Gentile Church that was
eclipsing its Jewish forerunner and Paul’s doctrine of salvation by grace
which was supplanting Jewish law practiced by Jesus and his earliest successors.
Mormons may get a lot wrong in what they believe about ancient temple worship
but they are right about it playing a significant role in religious life.
The Scientist is 100% correct.The false temples of the LDS with
their false ordinances NOT commanded by the Lord are for the deluded and
willfully blinded - no matter how benevolent are their motives or actions.
"The Most High God dwelleth not in temples made with hands" states the
Apostle Paul and the martyr Stephen in the book of Acts. The days of temple
building have been over forever since 30 A.D. with the death, burial, and
glorious resurrection of Jesus Christ. The temple of God is the heart of a
righteous man or woman cleansed from all sin through faith, repentance, and
baptism (by water and then by fire and the Holy Ghost) by one with the
Sharrona,When did I mention anything about what we eat or drink or
new moon ceremonies?As to the temple, for something that was of no
value once Christ came he himself clearly placed high value on it. Also the 12
even after his death and resurrection. Why?
RE: Red Headed Stranger, This is what he meant when he said that one greater
than the temple has come! Jesus Christ. It is in Christ’s church–as
Jesus’ mystical body–that we find the fulfillment of the O. T.
prophecies regarding Jerusalem and the Mountain of the Lord.The
promise of a land, will be fulfilled in a new heaven and earth in the
consummation (cf. Romans 4:13; Hebrews 11:9-10). The N.T. teaches that Christ
is the New Temple . Christ’s body is the true temple . Paul,
“For we are the temple of the living God” (2 Cor 6:16)–what
use remains for a future literal temple? That to which the temple had pointed,
is now a reality through the work of the Holy Spirit.RE: Twin
Lights, don’t let anyone criticize you for what you eat or drink(TR), or
for not celebrating Jewish holidays and feasts or new moon ceremonies or
Sabbaths. For these were only temporary rules that ended when Christ came. They
were only shadows of the real thing—of Christ himself.(Col 2:16-17)
The temple is like the parables. Seemingly simple but with multiple layers of
meaning. We "discover" those meanings as we revisit the temple just as
we do when we reread the parables.But I daresay that one of the key
reasons folks attend is to gain the peace available there - the less fettered
access to the Holy Ghost and the mind of God.
I appreciate what Marlin K. Jensen said about the temple when talking during the
"rescue Sweden campaign". He said you have to go several times before it
eventually makes sense.
Craig Clark is mostly right. The ancient Jewish Temple was also where what
became the "Passover Seder" was carried out to remind Jews of the Exodus
and their identity as a nation. LDS apologists try to fabricate embellishments
of this history to concoct a connection. Real scholars recognize and dismiss
such pseudo-scholarship for what it is.
The type of temple worship practiced by Mormonism has no ancient precedent under
the law of Moses that would make it something that needed to be
‘restored’ as Mormons like to put it. The purpose of Solomon’s
temple as explained in the Bible was to house the ark of the covenant. In
Jesus’ time, the temple was consecrated for Jewish sacrificial ritual.
Efforts to link Masonic temple practices with Solomon's temple are given no
credence by modern scholarship. Mormon scholars for obvious reasons would like
to establish such a link.
Sharrona,I've read the scriptures you cited in Hebrews, in
multiple translations, and I cannot see any justification for the statement
"Temple support is making Christ’s sacrifice of no effect." In
fact, such a statement shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the function of a
temple.There was much more to the ancient temple than just the
ritual killing of animals. The molten sea, the Holy place with the table of
shewbread and wine, the menorah, the incense burner, the veil and in the Holy of
Holies the ark of the covenant, representing the throne of God. Sacrifice was
the "price of admission", but certainly not the whole purpose.The Hebrews instead refers only to the ritual killing of animals, not to the
concept of sacrifice in general. We are to be living sacrifices, (Romans 12:1,
Hebrews 13:15-16).A temple is a place of learning how to return to
the presence of God. Read Psalms 24, in particular verse 6. That psalm talks
about creation, the holy place, living with clean hands and then receiving
blessings. A generation or circle of those that seek the face of the God of
Jacob, and the opening gates.
Temple worship is possibly the single most important part of the Restoration of
the Gospel. Without it, Christianity has little to no meaning beyond this life,
and the souls of billions who left this Earth without hearing the name of Jesus
Christ have no hope of salvation.
@sharronaChrist sacrifice was to redeem us from out sins, and
over come the fall of Adam that brought death to the world.After
that, then what? There is much more to the after life than just
living again in a sinless state.
RE: Oatmeal,The temple is central to the Jewish faith. No longer valid from a
Christian perspective. The Messiah is the focus of our faith, the temple was
only a temporary shadow of him, the true substance.The book of Hebrews is
a commentary on Leviticus (among other things) and compares all the things of
the law, Christ showed he is superior to what God gave through Moses.When
Jesus Christ died, the veil, through which the high priest entered into the Holy
of Holies once a year, was torn from top to bottom (Matt. 27:51). Heb. 9:26
“…but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away
sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (Heb.7:27; 10:8-11. Temple
support is making Christ’s sacrifice of no effect. It is the very thing
book of Hebrews warns not to do.The Jews, never received the
cancellation order.” This is based on the O. T. covenant with Israel but
from the N. T. perspective (covenant) it is not correct. The temple, the
priesthood, the sacrifices and all the commands attached to it are no longer
Oatmeal,There are more people who are curious about LDS temple
traditions than is generally appreciated. They realize that not just anyone can
walk in off the street to receive ordinances for which the LDS Church has
eligibility standards. People respect that and they deserve to be shown respect
in return. Letting in sunlight helps to build trust in the world.
Craig Clark,The best way to demystify the temple is to attend LDS
temple sessions and engage in serious study. Nothing of true value comes easy.
Temple understanding occurs with actual experience and study.
Cletus from Coalville,Even better, I wonder if any scholars at the
conference will note the extraordinary similarities between the symbolism within
masonic ritual and that of the religious rituals of the ancient world. Some
scholars have already opened the door on that, some exciting research on that
front has developed over the last two decades.Thank you Dr.
Peterson. So many in the LDS community need to learn about current scholarship
in the Old Testament and along temple themes. There have been some huge
Demystifying the temple to enhance public understanding serves a greater purpose
than trying to keep the temple an object of mystery.
Very powerful and enlightening article Dr. Peterson, as usual. Thank you, again.
"...an array of 30 professors, graduate students and independent
scholars...will address a multitude of themes connected with temples."I wonder if there are any masonic scholars invited to address the
multitude of themes connected with the temple given the temple
"Endowment" ceremony including a number of symbolic elements are
essentially identical with their analogues within Freemasonry. Mormon temple
worship shares an extensive commonality of symbols, signs, vocabulary and
clothing with Freemasonry. It would be interesting to see if these issues are
examined at the annual Sidney B. Sperry Symposium.