My religious right to trample on the civil rights of others is being infringed
upon! Oh what am I to do?
For the aged who think they are immune from the coming fall, you need to think
of your children and grandchildren. For the young who are on the
gravy train, hating anyone who has more than you, and coveting everything anyone
else has is coming back to bite us all.Well stated George. Too bad
the liberal colleges don't invite him to speak to their students.
Lucky BYU. I've been reading and watching George Will for over three
decades. His observations and insights never fail to entertain and enrich.
DN included the remarks about religious liberty in the headline, as they appear
after the main story, in response to questions.Let me reply:Most Americans of good conscience, believers in God, feel that a woman who
must work for a catholic owned hospital or an evangelical owned business (not a
church) to support their families must be provided with contraception. In fact,
it is conservative to save the public the costs of birthing and educating
unplanned, unwanted children. Cold hearted individuals say "let them work
elsewhere", but catholic owned hospitals are ubiquitous.Ditto
the idea that "Christians" have free rein to not hire or sell to Gay
people, although they may have 10 times as many drunken, adulterous or divorced
customers.Back to what Will said, the financial crunch and debt that
hurts us all came from the totally unnecessary Iraq war, and messing up
Afghanistan, in the Bush (conservative) administration, not to mention over
500,000 people DEAD, more hurt and maimed.Now,
"conservatives" pretend that President Obama adding to the Bush debt to
help the poor and struggling and to build jobs is devilish socialism.How is it Christian to not help the poor?
BYU has standards based on the Church that sponsors it. George Will looks at
life from a moral perspective. The current administration does not. It is all
about world socialism and political correctness. My Catholic Church has
unfortunately joined in an evident attempt to destroy the capitalism that George
Will and BYU so eloquently support.
@Ernest T. BassPlease, explain your comment further. Are you talking
about how the left continues to attack churches which disagree with their
secular political agenda? In that case, I agree.Are you talking
about how so-called civil liberties groups continue to fight hard at stripping
away the tax-exempt status of churches which discuss any conservative political
matter, while at the same time, totally ignoring other churches which engage and
lobby on behalf of liberal political causes? In that case, I agree with you.
Was that a typo -- only 2,245 in the audience in a 21,000-seat venue? If
that's a correct number, there may be a message there. I'm just not
sure what it is.
A very mixed presentation… On the one hand he’s right
about our current “national agreement” to charge current consumption
on the credit card and he’s also right to call that a moral issue.He’s also right about the vexing family problem – all the
studies I’ve seen clearly show that among intact families, we do not have
a major poverty problem in this country. But he’s dead wrong
about the faux problem of religious liberty and he bemoans then constitutional
reality that has always been a part of our country and has been affirmed by
numerous SC decisions.Does he really believe that Antonin Scalia was
wrong when writing for the majority in Employment Division v Smith explaining
why the Court held that the First Amendment's protection of the "free
exercise" of religion does not allow a person to use a religious motivation
as a reason not to obey generally applicable laws said, "To permit this
would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law
of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto
One of the most respected political pundits and observers states the obvious,
something the liberals will still assail as mean spirited, rigid, and Tea party
centric philosophy. All this coming from a man by his own admission is not a
man of 'faith'. It can't get more plain than this, but I'm
sure the progressives will find a reason to state that Will has been co-opted by
the extremists who want--what--let me see--fiscal responsibility!
The real issue is that religious authorities want the freedom to control
individuals and limit their freedom, regardless of whether or not you are
Catholic. If you are a nurse working for one of their hospitals, for example,
(there are so many examples) they want to deny insurance coverage for nurse to
get birth control. This is freedom? It's clearly not. It's just
another example of how religion tries to control people in a self-religious and
ridiculous manner. What happened to individual freedom? Take a
look at history. Religious institutions have been at the forefront of denying
freedom to individuals. Religious folks start complaining they're freedom
is being attacked when they are prevented from controlling the lives of other
I agree with George Will on the decline of the American family being at the root
of our economic and social problems. I'll help him out with the cause of
the decline, too. In my opinion, it has a great deal to do with our increasing
materialism (over the past 50 or 60 years) that has driven mothers out of the
home and into the workplace, thereby driving children into daycare centers where
the foundation of their character is formed. Of course it isn't working
well. Practically every family can avoid this simply living more modestly. My
parents survived the depression just fine with far less than the poorest among
us.And yes, I believe that religious - and moral - motivation is a
reasonable motivation to not obey "generally applicable laws", given
that those "generally applicable laws" appear to have been specifically
designed to violate the conscience of the religiously motivated.
The fundamental problem with religion as Will and Santorum see it is that they
consider it correct for religious organizations to act like the Crusaders
imposing their beliefs on others. Theirs is an Imposition just like the
Inquisition. The Originalists (taking the US Constitution literally with out
flexibility) are hypercritical when it comes to religion - the value of
separation of Church and State is lost on them and an inconvenience to their
arguments. Additionally there was no acknowledgement of religions
doctrine of intolerance at the soft end to hate at the far end. This inhumane
fervor innate in many extreme religious beliefs (certain Christian evangelicals
and certain Muslim sects) is and has been a destructive force throughout
history. The Inquisitionists are now the Impositionists, the latest permutation,
somewhat of a euphemism but just as dangerous.
re: JD Jones 7:50a todayExactly. "History, I
believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil
government" - Thomas Jefferson
What liberal columnist or author of equal stature has BYU scheduled to appear on
campus? I mean it is supposed to be a learning institution isn't it?
@ JD Jones If you are a nurse working for one of their hospitals, for example,
(there are so many examples) they want to deny insurance coverage for nurse to
get birth control. This is freedom? It's clearly not. I don't see
anywhere where birth control is prohibited. Just that those who concientiously
object, don't want to have to pay for it. There are many forms of birth
control that are available over the counter at a nominal fee. they work, and
are quite easily affordable. Is this not an option, for someone to pay for
their own birth control? What a novel idea!
@cpafred:"What liberal columnist or author of equal stature has BYU
scheduled to appear on campus? I mean it is supposed to be a learning
institution isn't it?"If you define 'liberal' as
fascists who want to get into people's lives, who think that they can
create a utopia by making everyone toe their party line, you are right, they
haven't scheduled any. If, on the other hand, you define liberals as
speaking for the weak, questioning the current paradigms, wanting to find a way
to fight poverty, then they scheduled George Will. He talked there yesterday.
Sorry you missed it.I think that it is time to recognize that the
polarity of American politics has flipped.
Oh please...Religious groups only want to impose their will on
others, they only cry when their right to control other groups is impinged,
blah, blah, blah.Religious groups of course have the right to refuse
contraception if they disagree. That's not controlling anyone's
decisions, because the market will correct itself. No one forces anyone to work
anywhere. If a woman wants abortifacients and her company refuses to provide
her some, she has the right to switch jobs. If I want weekends off from work
but those are not provided, I can go work somewhere else. Since when is
establishing a rule like this "controlling" or "limiting
others' freedom"? That's exactly the mindset of entitlement that
Will was decrying in his speech.The fact is that corporations are
entitled to First Amendment rights. They have the right to free speech, as
Citizens United made clear. They have the right to assemble and they have the
right to the press. Why shouldn't corporations also have the right to
practice religion as their CEOs envision if those companies, like Hobby Lobby or
Chick Fil-A, were founded "for the glory of God"?
So many of Will's underlying premises are erroneous and flawed. To accept
them without question and then run with them is intellectually dishonest. But,
he gives the message his audience wants to hear. The bunker, unwarranted
defensive mentality of the religious right wing is actually quite toxic and
self-serving. I certainly don't see Christ or Joseph Smith as part of the
current environement of religious paranoia.
to LP Grad, BYU AlumA business institution founded for the glory of
God? Really?Hopefully, I'm not the only one who thinks that
sounds silly.If you are not in business to provide a service and
make $ then you got faulty vocational advice somewhere along the line or mistook
Divinity school for an MBA program.
Careful there Shimlau....you're talking about the Nurse taking personal
responsibility for his/her actions and consequences. What happened
to individual freedom? Better question is 'What happened to personal
Re:LPGradBYUAlumNO abortifacients are included in the mandated
health coverage. The fact is, the Catholic Hospital Association
finds the accomodations made by HHS acceptable. The other fact is, many
Catholic hospitals covered birth control coverage for their employees prior to
Obamacare. I know it firsthand. I worked at a Catholic hospital for 12 yrs.
I listened to Will's forum address. He hit a few nails on the head, but
totally missed others.Is the welfare state totally out of control,
as he insists? Is government suffocating the private sector? Government
expenditures, including Social Security and Medicare, are projected to be lower
in the next three years, as a percentage of GDP, than they were on average
during Reagan's eight years. Meanwhile, our tax revenues are lower than
they have been since 1950. And corporate profits are at record levels. Will complained that the very wealthy pay most of the income tax, but he
doesn't explain why. It is because the corporate system is designed to
create a great divide, with most of the wealth going to the top and most of the
workers being considered an expense to be minimized. Will even called the
wealthy the most productive segment of society. Rather, they reap huge rewards
that other productive workers create.He blames our growing
inequality on out-of-wedlock births. Certainly that us a factor, but the bigger
factor is the corporate system that employs fewer Americans, pays them as little
as possible, and removes benefits where possible.
To continue, Will's address was a very one-sided look at our society and
government. He set up a straw-man argument around a quote from Obama that he
took out of context ("You didn't build that") and then gave several
examples of creative success without pointing out that none of those successes
would have been possible if not for the environment and infrastructure created
by our form of government.He was right that we want what government
can provide, but we don't want to pay for it. The solution, since
conservatives can't really come up with any feasible plan to balance the
budget with spending cuts alone, is to increase tax rates and close loopholes
until we can increase revenues to sustainable levels.Of course, the
real issue is what is causing the inequality, and it is not just out-of-wedlock
births. We the people grant corporate charters. In the beginning, these
businesses were created to serve public purposes, not just generate private
profit. We need to remember that they exist because we allow them to, and we
need to remind them what their responsibility to society is.
It is no surprise that our grand children or new immigrants will have a bill to
pay for the the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. I have been paying for the SSI
payments of others for over 40 years now, and it is my turn to receive. That is
not an "entitlement". I helped pay for my fathers wars, and military
hardware we have never used, the Marshall plan and the rebuilding after WWII.
America has always been and will be a debtor nation. Since we were founded, we
have run a debt. The Nation is not in trouble of going broke when we have so
many mega rich people living great lives here. It is a matter of equity and
sharing. Loaves and fishes.
@cpafred "What liberal columnist or author of equal stature has BYU
scheduled to appear on campus?" Is Harry Reid to far right for you. He
spoke. Helen Thomas spoke. Numerous other liberals. Just get on line and search
the forum speaker archives.
Will has correctly stated a problem, which is spending more than is taken in,
but oversimplifies the blame. It is the so called "conservatives" who
refuse to allow the government to collect the money needed to pay for what the
people want. If the GOP was committed to invading a sovereign country to cram
democracy (they they do not want) down their throats, spending a trillion
dollars and thousands of American lives, there should have been an immediate tax
increase to pay for it. Likewise, if we feel that education or caring for the
poor is important, we need to pay for it, not borrow. Otherwise we might want
to redirect money that is now being lavished on prosperous corporations, such as
oil companies, to education and other programs that benefit the population at
BYU schedules speakers who have a diversity of views about the world. Off the
top of my head I can think of a few souls with liberal political philosophies
who have addressed the BYU student body, including former white house
correspondent Helen Thomas, Senator Joseph Lieberman and Senator Harry Reid.
George Will is wrong about the dysfunction in Washington. Bill Moyers did a
great show on PBS recently that discussed the motivation political behind
gridlock -- money. Give a lobbyist a problem and they can sell their services.
Solve problems and no one gets rich. Will also shows his blind eye
to the conservative unfunded wars and the decline of the middle class, due to
the outsourcing of American jobs and the outsourcing of big investor profits.
We are deeply entrenched in the pride cycle. "The earth is the
Lord's and the fullness thereof." ... "The profit of the earth is
for all, the king himself is served by the field."Capitalism
teaches that greed is good, but the public goods of capitalism, mainly
competition, has all but ceased as more companies merge and press their
political advantage in opposition to the voice of the people.And if
we are persecuted for our faith, many churches in America will lead the way. As
my former faith stated, when they embraced same-gender marriage, "The family
is a social institution, this side of heaven." My children's piano
teacher is a protestant church youth leader, who lives with her boyfriend.
You know we live in a day and age where things are really messed. All one needs
to do is look around and see that the time is at hand when the Lord Jesus Christ
will return. When exactly is a matter of opinion. That said there are many who
do not want the religious to speak in the public square but to keep it silent.
There are those who cry discrimination at every turn yet there is no
discrimination. There are those who feel they are entitled to something even
though for some it was their own hard work that guaranteed some of the gifts
given them. Social Security and other programs are socialistic but were
necessary at a time. Now many feel they are entitled to it even though they
never paid a dime into it. It is going broke as are other areas.Some even
wants us to believe we should have stayed out of Afaghanstain and Iraq. Yet,
for others it was a necessary evil. George Will spoke the truth and
unfortunately the truth hurts the liberals/socialist of this country the most.
Those against him are socialist.
Good ol' George.One of the many traveling shows raking in the big
fees for his story of religious persecution, the in topic of the 2013 Righties.
The problem I have with the pundits of business and religion is that they tell
their listeners every thing they want to hear except the truth. Like in telling us that the problems of the Black race is because of the
family disintegration as if it was the root cause. When the actual truth is
that the root cause of 99% of the problems in society is the economic oppression
created by businessmen. Like in telling religious people that
democracy is “decadent democracy”, when he knows full well that
religious people oppose democracy. There is no such thing as a democratic
I am a big George Will fan; however, we all can't write and read
articles for a living, is he prepared to work for a corporation, move to North
Dakota, and live outside the Washington beltway? Doubt it. He makes a living
off of talking about government. What would be his profession without
government? When he says government does most things wrong, is he talking
of our military men and women? Was Mr. Will ever in military? Would his
desire for private enterprise have saved the day in the 2008 great Recession?
Sorry. I love his passion for baseball, and I love his love of words, yet he
is a part of the east coast that doesn't think divorce is that bad a thing,
nor having a career before marriage. He is brutally honest though with himself
@Bob K“How is it Christian to not help the poor?”Government handouts and entitlements do not help the poor. They enslave
them. @JD Jones“What happened to individual
freedom?”Please tell us of any religious employers that want
to prevent any person from purchasing contraceptives.
Some comments above insinuate that religions and religious institutions
throughout history "have been at the forefront of denying freedom to
individuals."Oh really?Yeah, the Crusades and
Inquistion were bad. But during those same Middle Ages and the Renaissance,
religions were developing the university system and establishing hospitals
throughout Europe. The Christian Church sponsored the arts (cathedrals,
sculpture, painting, music) that still inspire our souls today.During the American Revolution, American churches were often responsible for
promoting the ideals of Liberty. During the early 19th century abolitionism
found a home in American churches. Suffrage? Women's religious
organizations supported that movement (including the LDS Relief Society). The
Civil Rights Movement? Need I mention that the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr.
was an ordained pastor and that black congregations engaged society in a
peaceful way that secularists have rarely mastered? How about Gandhi? Hardly a
secularist! Just about every successful "liberal" change was carried to
fruition by religionists. The Left's abandonment of religion in the last
few decades was foolish. Secularists/atheists have little to point
to as far as cultural or humanitarian achievements. Unless of course, you
appreciate the "humanitarian" efforts of Lenin, Stalin and Mao.
To "cpafred" the problem is that there is not a liberal author or
coumnist that can match Georg Will's stature. The liberals are all
seriously lacking.You are forgetting that BYU did have Harry Reid
there a few years ago.To "just-commenting" you inadvertently
hit onto part of the problem. People are pushing government to give into their
wants, not needs. For example, a cell phone is a want, not a need. Government
should not be proving for our wants, and should reduce their size to those
duties specified in the Constutition.To "Kent C. DeForrest"
it is more than just taxes that are suffocating US businesses. The regulations
that they have to comply with are also destroying businesses. Several
CEO's have commented that under today's regulations they never would
have been able to have the success that they were able to achieve when there
were fewer regulations.You are wrong about the corporate system. It
is designed to spread the wealth around. What good does it do a corporation to
have products that nobody can afford? Even U2's Bono knows that capitalism
is best for lifting people out of poverty.
@Oatmeal – “Secularists/atheists have little to point to as far as
cultural or humanitarian achievements.”A nice polemic but
leaves out a lot of factual history.First, most of the values that
brought Europe out of the Dark Ages were fought tooth & nail by the Catholic
and later Protestant churches. When religion dominated the scene it spent 500
hundred years burning non-believers at the stake. The Founders
(Deists mostly) created our Republic by blending the values of the Enlightenment
with the ancient models of Rome & Greece. That people discussed these values
on Sunday is a testament to their genius and not to Religion leading the
cause.Abolition… please. Yes, some abolitionists were
religious but they used to get trounced on a regular basis in debates with their
Southern counterparts who could quote Bible chapter & verse all day long in
support of their “peculiar institution.”Lenin, Stalin
& Mao are complete red herrings – better to look to Scandinavia,
Japan, Canada, Denmark, Australia, Germany, New Zealand, etc… as models of
secular societies in action.
cpafred "What liberal columnist or author of equal stature has BYU scheduled
to appear on campus? I mean it is supposed to be a learning institution
isn't it?"#1 - Liberal columnists and authors of equal
stature charge too much#2 - They can't get the crowds to the Marriott
CenterHowever, liberal speakers of lesser stature do speak at BYU.
You just need to look it up.
I find it fascinating that a university named in honor of a pioneer who was
clearly a devout socialist has become a bastion in defense of the capitalism
Brigham Young despised so much.
@ bullet56 "It is no surprise that our grand children or new immigrants will
have a bill to pay for the the Iraq and Afghanistan wars."I hope
you are wrong. If so, this infuriates me to no end. Viet Nam is the only war in
the last century we were not reimbursed, because we lost. Japan and Germany were
forced to reimburse the wars. France and South Korea reimbursed the US for
liberation.Afghanistan is broke, but I wonder, has this
Administration followed through with a payment plan from Iraq?
George Will: "We've seen family disintegration inflicted by disease,
famine, war. "This time it has happened during domestic tranquility in the
United States. I can't explain it."Actually, George can
explain a good portion of it and it's pretty much only political
correctness that dissuades him. Which is a little bit odd, since in the past
he's been more open and forward in addressing it in public.
At least Will is optimistic about the future of the US, which is more than I can
say for myself. I think it's insane to pretend that a country living way
beyond its means by incurring astronomical amounts of debt is any different from
an individual or family doing the same thing; there will be a day of reckoning,
and it isn't going to be pretty. Worse, we've gotten to the point
where the Federal Reserve "buys" ~70% of new US Treasury debt
instruments. In what material way is the Fed distinguishable from the
government that spends all that money?
George Will's pompous pontifications are mostly hot air. He blorts about
shrinking government, yet he wants to expand government to tax all Americans to
support sectarian and other private schools, something that Utah voters
overwhelmingly rejected in 1998 ans 2007. And Santorum wants to expand
government so that it can deny women religious liberty and freedom of conscience
on reproductive matters. Both Will and Santorum are dedicated enemies of the
religious freedom and church-state separation enshrined in the Utah
constitution. -- Edd Doerr, President, Americans for Religious Liberty
Redshirt,Look at the statistics. Stories from a few CEOs make me
cry. Corporations have never had it so good, nor have their executives.At the outset, capitalism was indeed intended to break the monopoly of the
aristocratic class and spread wealth around a bit. But today's capitalism
is dysfunctional in this regard. By giving in to corporate demands (particularly
the demand to declare corporations "persons," which happened finally in
the late 1800s), we have merely created a new aristocratic class that is
becoming increasingly removed from the commoner with each passing year. Again,
look at the statistics, not what the conservative talk-radio voices say. To see
where our system of corporate capitalism is taking us, all we have to do is look
at the numbers and follow their trajectory. Even the CEOs wouldn't like the
picture the numbers present, because their policies are slowly killing off their
customers. Growing inequality is hard to justify, no matter which side of the
great political divide you occupy.
Eliyahu,Great comment. In one of Brigham's "Orders of
Enoch," Orderville, the people owned no private property, lived in
dormatories, and ate their meals together in a common cafeteria. With the railway on the way, Brigham knew capitalism was on his doorstep, so
in 1868 he launched an anticapitalist editorial campaign in the Deseret News and
established ZCMI, Zion's Cooperative Mercantile Institution, his attempt to
undercut the profits of the merchants in Zion and prevent the economic
inequality that he preached against constantly.
George has become a carny barker for all things republican...His gig
as a fox news entertainer proves that fact.Sad.On a
brighter note... He did write an informative book about baseball:
Men at Work...He also wrote an interesting read titled Restoration
(published in 1992) regarding Congress and use of term limits as a possible
solution for what ailed the country then and continues to plague us today.
@Shimlau, you wrote, " I don't see anywhere where birth control is
prohibited. Just that those who concientiously object, don't want to have
to pay for it. There are many forms of birth control that are available over the
counter at a nominal fee. they work, and are quite easily affordable. Is this
not an option, for someone to pay for their own birth control? What a novel
idea!" So where do we draw the line? Should a religion have
the right to deny health insurance for any reason? What if they decide that
woman simply don't deserve any health care based on the religious belief
that all woman shall not have insurance? It's irrational to refuse
insurance coverage for birth control based on a belief system your employees
@Bob K:"How is it Christian to not help the poor?" Nice try,
but failed.First - How do you define "Poor"?? There are
plenty of "poor" people being enriched by government handouts. Fraud is
rampant when it comes to government handouts/entitlements.Second -
How do you define "help"?? You don't "help" anyone by
creating generational dependence of government assistance where there is no
(NONE, NADA) accountability. What you DO create is a dependent nanny state under
our current system.
@Ultra Bob - "...the actual truth is that the root cause of 99%
of the problems in society is the economic oppression created by businessmen
...." Really?? How many poor "businessmen" have ever
I find all this chatter a bit amusing. For example, people act like this is all
new.. never seen before. And yet, in 2006, the last debt owed for wwII was
finally paid off - some 61 years after incurred. The fledgling states borrowed
money from France and the Dutch bankers to fund the revolutionary war.... and
took decades to pay it off. Utah was acquired from Mexico to retire debt that
Mexico had to the United States.So lets stop with the revisionist
history here. In one of the biggest redistribution of wealth, the Home Stead
Act, people were given government lands in the promise they would turn the land
productive. Millions of acres, which the US government had to borrow money to
buy, were given away... So this cherry picking of historical facts
to make profound, but untrue statements, just shows how absolutely ignorant some
of these constitutionalist are of their own countries history.
I am willing to bet good money that no-one here has ever directly experienced
the United States government suppressing their religious freedom. This is all
Chicken Little stuff.Honestly, I'd be interested to hear a
reply . . has anyone here wanted to engage in some religious practice on their
own time and their own dime and been thwarted by the horrible, horrible liberals
who are apparently out to get you?
@Tekakaromatagi"If you define 'liberal' as fascists
who want to get into people's lives, who think that they can create a
utopia by making everyone toe their party line..." I hope
you're kidding. How about Van Jones or somebody like him? As a liberal
member of the Church, I am tired of my tithing dollars supporting a pathetic
string of right wing personalities speaking at BYU. As for your
comment regarding the polarity of American politics 'flipping', thanks
for the good laugh. Perhaps you have been away too long, but we have these
thing called "polls" in America, and the right-wingers are not doing too
well in them. We also have this thing called a president and he is a Democrat
(recently reelected) and a thing called the senate (containing a majority of
Democrats). I suspect something has "flipped", but it's not the
polarity of American politics.
"....the consensus is we should have a large, generous, omnipresent,
omniprovident welfare state and not pay for it. Everyone's agreed on
this...."______________________________I know of no one
who advocates that even though the far right insists that’s what
we’re doing. But facts are no deterrent to dishonesty when the business at
hand is perpetuating myths about the left for the right wing to feed on.
That’s unworthy of George Will.The wit and clarity that once
gave Will’s perspectives a rebellious edge has withered with age. His
columns are now routine caustic polemics that make you want to cry remembering
when he was a font of refinement worthy of his erstwhile mentor William F.
Buckley who seemed to grow old gracefully.
ShimlauSAINT GEORGE, UT@ JD Jones If you are a nurse working for one
of their hospitals, for example, (there are so many examples) they want to deny
insurance coverage for nurse to get birth control. This is freedom? It's
clearly not. I don't see anywhere where birth control is prohibited. Just
that those who concientiously object, don't want to have to pay for it.
There are many forms of birth control that are available over the counter at a
nominal fee. they work, and are quite easily affordable. Is this not an option,
for someone to pay for their own birth control? What a novel idea!Sorry, but this is not very American or very Christian!1-- Suppose
Maria works in the kitchen of a hospital for minimum wage, has 3 kids. Will she
buy shoes for the kids or birth control pills? Should she have to chose?2-- Suppose Maria's sister is in another town where the hospital is not
catholic and gets the free contraception: is this equality?3-- Suppose you
actually priced over-the-counter birth control instead of imagining how cheap it
is? Guess what, condoms are expensive, and men do not like them.
Razzle2Germany in no way paid for all the damage of WWII. The US
paid to for humanitarian aid in Germany after the war, and helped rebuild. The other liberal dream posts are equally ridiculous, but too numerous
to address them all. But they wouldn't read them anyway, with their heads
in the sand.
Why is it that conservative churches and commentators who don't like
certain policies always demonize and demagogue by suggesting that certain
unfavored policies and individuals are all about destroying freedom of religion?
It is simply balderdash,(Some of you will probably have to look up that old
word)contrived to excite a religious right wing base to politically oppose the
policies in question. Simply, put you are being used. There is no threat to
religious freedom, families, marriage, etc. If you want to find a real threat
to freedom, you might want to look at the impact of political money on our
used-to-be democracy. This kind of an argument is couched in fear, and is made
to distract you from what is really going on.
@ Badger Badger and to the many others ..."Liberal Colleges" or if you
prefer Universities such as Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Brown, Stanford, Duke,
Wake Forest, etc. (Purely assumption on my part that I assume these would
qualify in your mind as "liberal") or as the rest of the country outside
of Utah and Texas would cassify as freethinking have actually had Mr Will speak
numerous times. The difference is however unlike the controlled learning
environment at "colleges" such as byu, Liberty, Bob Jones, Baylor, smu,
etc, students and faculty realize that speeches given are purely political
opinion. Noticed the word "opinion" used not "fact" Highly
recommend you grasp this concept before posting anymore unintelligent nonsense,
especially in a such a public forum. Consider this a recommendation from myself
and the many others that attended "liberal" Universities.
To "Eliyahu" you are wrong about Brigham Young being a socialist.This is what Brigham Young had to say about socialism " We heard
Brother Taylor’s exposition of what is called Socialism this morning. What
can they do? Live on each other and beg. It is a poor, unwise and very imbecile
people who cannot take care of themselves." Source: President Brigham Young,
Journal of Discourses, Volume 14, p. 21. 1870.To "Kent C.
DeForrest" the disfunction that you see is what happens when politicians
push for socialism or fascism and try to use government to controll businesses.
For example, the two most hated industries are banking and health insurance.
The two most regulated industries are banking and health insurance. Is it any
coincidence that the industries that frustrate people the most are also the same
ones being micromanaged by the government? In health insurance, the cost of
insurance would not be so high, if it wasn't for government adding to the
cost of insurance through state and federal mandates.If that
isn't enough, look back at history to when capitalism was functioning
better and also look at the amount of regulation they had. Less
That makes at least two of us who feels old, because as a student I
saw/listened to George Will when he visited BYU the first time. It was
definitely not the 80's, best guess is 1979, and definitely no earlier than
'78. One thing that hasn't changed: I was envious of his intellect
and insight then and still am.
@ UtahBlueDevil...Well stated post! Isn't it amazing what a
"liberal" education can provide?
@SlopJ30If one sees very bad weather coming and makes preparations
to protect their family and property from the storm, are they being foolish?
Would it be wiser for one to wait until the storm hits before doing anything to
protect family and property?I think something you and I would
probably agree on is that in some aspects, so called "religious freedom"
is not really was the U.S. Constitution intended. For example, legal wrangling
over school prayer and displays of the Ten Commandments at courthouses or other
government buildings is actually doing a disservice to the true issue of freedom
of religion. On the other hand however, there is a growing movement
of activists who would like nothing more than to wipe the U.S. free and clear of
all religious freedom. These activists don't have a leg to stand on now,
but those of us who are religious are not going to sit back and wait until the
courts and voters start ruling in their favor. We are getting ready
to protect our rights from the storms which are creeping up on us.
@SlopJ30One storm which is already at our doors is the ever growing
double standard in those who preach and even shout about the so-called
“separation of church and state,” stating that churches such as the
LDS, Catholic and Southern Baptist churches have no right whatsoever in engaging
in political matters, or else face government or legal sanction. Yet
when more liberal leaning churches, such as the Unitarian Church and United
Methodist Church engage in political causes such as passing Obamacare,
supporting tighter environmental laws or ending the death penalty, the people
who were shouting about separation of church and state before suddenly go very
quiet. This includes the ACLU and the organization Americans United for the
Separation of Church and State lead by Barry Lynn.Lynn’s group
has continually gone after churches and church leaders which in any way state a
conservative political position while at the same time they have consistently
ignored liberal churches or church leaders who are often even more political
than their conservative counterparts. Some say liberal churches are
promoting the greater good, but who then gets to decide what that specifically
@Mike in Cedar CityYou said "Why is it that conservative
churches and commentators who don't like certain policies always demonize
and demagogue by suggesting that certain unfavored policies and individuals are
all about destroying freedom of religion? It is simply balderdash..."And yet, anyone who dares criticize President Obama is automatically
labeled as a racist.Anyone who dare criticize Hillary Clinton or any
other Democrat female is automatically labeled a sexist is engaged on the
so-called "War on women."Cuts both ways, my friend.
re:RedShirtMIT"To "cpafred" the problem is that there is not a
liberal author or coumnist that can match Georg Will's stature. The
liberals are all seriously lacking."Here's a list of
liberals easily on par with George Will:1. Bill Moyers2. Robert
Reich3. Paul Krugman4. Katrina vanden Heuvel5. Ezra Klein6. Arianna Huffington7. Markos Moulitsas Zuniga 8. Rachel
Maddow9. Jared Bernsteinto name but a few. Other
interesting guests (R and D)would be:Van JonesJim WallisDavid
FrumMickey EdwardsMichael Smerconish
Tom in CA.With a very few exceptions all of my employers were
multi-millionaires and owners of the corporation that I worked for. The jobs I
had allowed me to see the work that the executives did and why they were doing
it. I learned that the purpose of the corporation was to make the executives
rich and powerful. And it was the obligation of other management to see that
the purpose was accomplished. And it didn’t really matter how they did it
so long as upper management kept their hand clean.
ClarkHippo.The greatest foes of religious freedom are the organized
religions themselves. For their believers, there is no such thing as freedom of
religion. And for those who live under religious government, there is no
religious freedom even if they don’t believe it. Your use of
the word “anyone” spoils your political argument by making your
words suspect of being a lie. There are probably some people who dare to
criticize President Obama just for his policies.
I'm not sure what America would look like without corporations. Perhaps
something like North Korea or Cuba, or the old Soviet Union, where the people
pretend to work and the government pretends to pay them.Someone
asked, "What's wrong with taking care of the poor?" The correct
answer is "Absolutely nothing, as long as it is done voluntarily." When
compulsion is added to the equation, the moral content of the action is removed;
or worse, it is inverted, resulting in a sense of entitlement on the part of
those who covet the property of others.The problem we have is there
are too many people riding in the government-goodies wagon and too few pulling
it. I'm not worried about corporations because I can choose which I will
work for and do business with. The government-goodies wagon is compulsory, and
that's why it's so bad. Perhaps we should only allow people to vote if
they are net "contributors" to the federal government - otherwise we
tend to vote to use government as a vehicle to take the property of those who
have earned it and "redistribute" it to those who have not.
Will is right - sadly about the decay of America. America has actually been in
decay mode since the 1960's but the rate of decay is now nearly vertical.
We have been hearing for years the impact of the welfare state on our children
and grandchildren but now we are finally starting to see the results. The
continuing army of freeloaders feeding off the hard work and taxes of the few.
The Santa Claus party handing out freebees by the sled full and the ignorant
masses thinking the gravy train will just keep on roll'in. The wells will
soon begin to dry up and then what? Where do we get the trillions to fund the
gigantic appetite of Obamacare? You can only tax people so much. Feels like we
are headed into the head wall of a category 5 hurricane...but there is always
the calm before the storm to lull people into a sense of false security. If you
are LDS - follow the prophet and take care of your family best you can....and
maybe time to take a break from the news for a while and just enjoy whats left
of a beautiful fall.
The Marriott Center holds 20,000. The mere fact that it was only 10% full when
one of the greatest newsmen of our time was speaking is indicative that the
"what's in it for me" society that re-elected Obama is alive and
well among even our youth in the Church. Here in South America (serving as a
missionary) observing on a daily basis the failure of these socialistic
societies gives me great concern about our 'free' America. Elder
Pops.Why do you think voluntary help to the poor is better than
involuntary help from their family, their society, their government? Does it
taste different? Is it warmer? Does it last longer? Does it do any thing to
solve the problem? The answer to all these questions is a simple no. Poverty is the consequence of the economic game of uncontrolled Capitalism.
In any endeavor where there are big winners there will be big losers. If voluntarism is so good, why don’t we have voluntary police, voluntary
fire, and voluntary highways? Charity is a business and just like
all businesses they don’t want competition from the government.
@jsf" Is Harry Reid to far right for you. He spoke. Helen Thomas
spoke. Numerous other liberals."The claim that numerous liberals
have visited is simply false. Some of the conservatives include Dick Cheney,
Condaleezza Rice, John Roberts, Arthur Brooks, Richard D. Land, Albert Mohler,
George Will, and Peggy Noonan. What liberals from past presidential cabinets
have been invited to counter Dick Cheney and Condaleezza Rice? Who is coming
this year to offset George Will and Peggy Noonan?Please name the
"numerous liberals" you claim to have spoken.
@ ClarkHippoI'll say it again . . this is "Chicken
Little" stuff. The weather analogy is embarrassingly simplistic. A more apt
one would read something like this:If grandma's gout was acting
up and she saw it as a sign that a twister was a-comin' despite clear
skies, would you make preparations to protect their family and property from the
storm, or would it be wiser to let the twister a-come and then scramble for the
storm shelter?People invent false future crises to galvanize current
political action. The alleged movements to eliminate religion may exist for all
I know, but if so they are confined to the fringe and do not demand my
attention. There are any number of fringe groups supporting all kinds of fringey
stuff at any given time. Are we going to take action to "protect"
ourselves from every hint of a whiff of a whisper of the Next Horrible Thing to
come?Whatever. It's kind of a club you guys have going, no more
based on reality than a Tolkien fan gathering. I’ll let you worry for me.
Fight the power, man.
I understand that the Deseret News is always going to lean conservative, but all
these articles about the so called threat to "religious liberty" are
really getting excessive. It seems that even the regular readers are picking up
on it.Times are changing and so are laws and we are not going backwards.
It's never happened in the history of our country and it's not going
to happen now. As a liberal, I will participate in the fight to make sure
that the changes are fair. But they are not going to go away.People are
not going to be denied their secular rights so that religious citizens can feel
a smidge less threatened. That's not going to happen. So yes.
Occasionally liberal judges are going to overstep. Just like we're used to
seeing conservative judges overstep. We can work together to make sure that the
laws are fair. I'm sure there will be occasions to do that. But we are
not going to use oppression as a substitute for problem solving.
The entire argument between right and left is pointless, as long as the left
insists that "the government" is some actual entity, and not simply the
representative bodies of we, the people; while also insisting the "the
government" actually DID anything worthwhile on their own, until prodded out
of their comfort zone and forced to do the will of the people. HIstory has
shown repeatedly that large expensive governments end badly. And history
repeats.Sadly, the will of the people in this age is utterly
contemptible, morally skewed, and so filled with PC doublespeak as to make any
meaningful discussion impossible. Condemning the religious right
for "forcing" their views on people, while applauding the courts for
doing the exact same thing is insane.
What lost thinking! Fact: A nurse does not need insurance to go buy a birth
control pill. You don't need to kill religion in order to get a pill for
her. You don't have to destroy liberty, or tax people to death. Just use
the money in your pocket, dear nurse, if you want to buy a pill. Get rid of
insurance, and we'll all be free, just as we were before.
After reading most of the comments from anti religious people on here, I have
learned something from them; Thou shalt have no other god than the government.
@Mountanman"After reading most of the comments from anti
religious people on here..."Just who are you judging to be
@ Ultra Bob, interesting take that "poverty is the consequence of the
economic game of uncontrolled Capitalism." I didn't know North Korea
was a capitalistic society, or maybe I underestimate their standard of living.
In addition, help from people who love you is a tremendous
motivating influence. It goes to the heart of human existence - relationships. I
have been given things from the government, not bad, but when someone sacrifices
for me, I feel accountable for their kindness and generosity, to go and do to
@Ultra Bob, I don't understand your position. Are you saying that if I help
my unemployed sister, that is somehow not voluntary? And yes, it does feel good,
and impels one to embark on a path of doing greater good.Yes, we
could have a government that rules with a iron fist and compels everyone to do
what's right, feeding the poor, caring for the sick, and making sure that
nobody has more than anyone else. However, attempts to accomplish that always
end badly, with a select few wielding all the wealth and power and with the
preponderance of the population having nothing. (The number of people starved to
death by their own force-the-people-to-do-the-right-thing governments in the
last 100 years makes Hitler look benevolent.) This approach doesn't work
because humans are corruptible.We should prefer freedom. Freedom is
not possible without morality. And morality and good works are prevented to the
degree that people are economically enslaved and compelled to do the
@Shimlau @Ironmomo Where's the "LOVE" button? Duh! Your insurance
does not need to cover birth control in order for you to obtain it. Anyone can
walk into a pharmacy and purchase birth control or have a prescription for it
filled using money from their own pocket.Why should anyone have to pay for
something that violates their values? Sadly, there are still plenty of places
funded by public money and donations that dispense both birth control and death
quoting Pops,"...The government-goodies wagon is compulsory, and that's
why it's so bad. Perhaps we should only allow people to vote if they are
net "contributors" to the federal government - otherwise we tend to vote
to use government as a vehicle to take the property of those who have earned it
and "redistribute" it to those who have not."Great idea!
Starting with a voter ID law might be a start.
Article quote: "We used to run deficits to borrow for the future. We
borrowed to win wars for the future, build roads, highways and airports for
future generations. Today we borrow from the future, to finance OUR OWN current
consumption. This is a fundamental immorality, if you will, burdening the
unconsenting and unpresent future generations with the costs of OUR
appetites." (caps added for emphasis)I would really love to hear
a liberal defend that truth.No, seriously....
George Will's BYU Guest Lecture on the "Political Argument" was
outstanding in every respect. From the precipitation, bungling, and prolongation
of the Great Depression by an overwrought federal government that got nearly
everything wrong to the ACA (ObamaCare) health reform law that tramples on
freedom, economics, and rights, he outlines what is needed to undo the whole
sordid mess: More limited government, more individual responsibility, and the
re-institution of the American family. Most salient was his reciting a Winston
Churchill quote that America gets things because it has exhausted all other
alternatives. Dependency, learned helplessness, and pulling down the successful
never lifted any man or woman, but securing them free enterprise, freedom to
learn and grow and build on a level playing field, will lift everyone that wants
to rise to their full potential.