Comments about ‘At BYU, George Will decries 'decadent democracy,' worries with LDS about religious liberty’

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Published: Tuesday, Oct. 22 2013 6:20 p.m. MDT

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ClarkHippo
Tooele, UT

@SlopJ30

If one sees very bad weather coming and makes preparations to protect their family and property from the storm, are they being foolish? Would it be wiser for one to wait until the storm hits before doing anything to protect family and property?

I think something you and I would probably agree on is that in some aspects, so called "religious freedom" is not really was the U.S. Constitution intended. For example, legal wrangling over school prayer and displays of the Ten Commandments at courthouses or other government buildings is actually doing a disservice to the true issue of freedom of religion.

On the other hand however, there is a growing movement of activists who would like nothing more than to wipe the U.S. free and clear of all religious freedom. These activists don't have a leg to stand on now, but those of us who are religious are not going to sit back and wait until the courts and voters start ruling in their favor.

We are getting ready to protect our rights from the storms which are creeping up on us.

ClarkHippo
Tooele, UT

@SlopJ30

One storm which is already at our doors is the ever growing double standard in those who preach and even shout about the so-called “separation of church and state,” stating that churches such as the LDS, Catholic and Southern Baptist churches have no right whatsoever in engaging in political matters, or else face government or legal sanction.

Yet when more liberal leaning churches, such as the Unitarian Church and United Methodist Church engage in political causes such as passing Obamacare, supporting tighter environmental laws or ending the death penalty, the people who were shouting about separation of church and state before suddenly go very quiet. This includes the ACLU and the organization Americans United for the Separation of Church and State lead by Barry Lynn.

Lynn’s group has continually gone after churches and church leaders which in any way state a conservative political position while at the same time they have consistently ignored liberal churches or church leaders who are often even more political than their conservative counterparts.

Some say liberal churches are promoting the greater good, but who then gets to decide what that specifically means?

ClarkHippo
Tooele, UT

@Mike in Cedar City

You said "Why is it that conservative churches and commentators who don't like certain policies always demonize and demagogue by suggesting that certain unfavored policies and individuals are all about destroying freedom of religion? It is simply balderdash..."

And yet, anyone who dares criticize President Obama is automatically labeled as a racist.

Anyone who dare criticize Hillary Clinton or any other Democrat female is automatically labeled a sexist is engaged on the so-called "War on women."

Cuts both ways, my friend.

Truthseeker
SLO, CA

re:RedShirtMIT
"To "cpafred" the problem is that there is not a liberal author or coumnist that can match Georg Will's stature. The liberals are all seriously lacking."

Here's a list of liberals easily on par with George Will:
1. Bill Moyers
2. Robert Reich
3. Paul Krugman
4. Katrina vanden Heuvel
5. Ezra Klein
6. Arianna Huffington
7. Markos Moulitsas Zuniga
8. Rachel Maddow
9. Jared Bernstein

to name but a few.

Other interesting guests (R and D)would be:
Van Jones
Jim Wallis
David Frum
Mickey Edwards
Michael Smerconish

Ultra Bob
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Tom in CA.

With a very few exceptions all of my employers were multi-millionaires and owners of the corporation that I worked for. The jobs I had allowed me to see the work that the executives did and why they were doing it. I learned that the purpose of the corporation was to make the executives rich and powerful. And it was the obligation of other management to see that the purpose was accomplished. And it didn’t really matter how they did it so long as upper management kept their hand clean.

Ultra Bob
Cottonwood Heights, UT

ClarkHippo.

The greatest foes of religious freedom are the organized religions themselves. For their believers, there is no such thing as freedom of religion. And for those who live under religious government, there is no religious freedom even if they don’t believe it.

Your use of the word “anyone” spoils your political argument by making your words suspect of being a lie. There are probably some people who dare to criticize President Obama just for his policies.

Pops
NORTH SALT LAKE, UT

I'm not sure what America would look like without corporations. Perhaps something like North Korea or Cuba, or the old Soviet Union, where the people pretend to work and the government pretends to pay them.

Someone asked, "What's wrong with taking care of the poor?" The correct answer is "Absolutely nothing, as long as it is done voluntarily." When compulsion is added to the equation, the moral content of the action is removed; or worse, it is inverted, resulting in a sense of entitlement on the part of those who covet the property of others.

The problem we have is there are too many people riding in the government-goodies wagon and too few pulling it. I'm not worried about corporations because I can choose which I will work for and do business with. The government-goodies wagon is compulsory, and that's why it's so bad. Perhaps we should only allow people to vote if they are net "contributors" to the federal government - otherwise we tend to vote to use government as a vehicle to take the property of those who have earned it and "redistribute" it to those who have not.

patriot
Cedar Hills, UT

Will is right - sadly about the decay of America. America has actually been in decay mode since the 1960's but the rate of decay is now nearly vertical. We have been hearing for years the impact of the welfare state on our children and grandchildren but now we are finally starting to see the results. The continuing army of freeloaders feeding off the hard work and taxes of the few. The Santa Claus party handing out freebees by the sled full and the ignorant masses thinking the gravy train will just keep on roll'in. The wells will soon begin to dry up and then what? Where do we get the trillions to fund the gigantic appetite of Obamacare? You can only tax people so much. Feels like we are headed into the head wall of a category 5 hurricane...but there is always the calm before the storm to lull people into a sense of false security. If you are LDS - follow the prophet and take care of your family best you can....and maybe time to take a break from the news for a while and just enjoy whats left of a beautiful fall.

Mont Pugmire
Fairview, UT

The Marriott Center holds 20,000. The mere fact that it was only 10% full when one of the greatest newsmen of our time was speaking is indicative that the "what's in it for me" society that re-elected Obama is alive and well among even our youth in the Church. Here in South America (serving as a missionary) observing on a daily basis the failure of these socialistic societies gives me great concern about our 'free' America. Elder Pugmire

Ultra Bob
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Pops.

Why do you think voluntary help to the poor is better than involuntary help from their family, their society, their government? Does it taste different? Is it warmer? Does it last longer? Does it do any thing to solve the problem? The answer to all these questions is a simple no.

Poverty is the consequence of the economic game of uncontrolled Capitalism. In any endeavor where there are big winners there will be big losers.

If voluntarism is so good, why don’t we have voluntary police, voluntary fire, and voluntary highways?

Charity is a business and just like all businesses they don’t want competition from the government.

cpafred
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

@jsf

" Is Harry Reid to far right for you. He spoke. Helen Thomas spoke. Numerous other liberals."

The claim that numerous liberals have visited is simply false. Some of the conservatives include Dick Cheney, Condaleezza Rice, John Roberts, Arthur Brooks, Richard D. Land, Albert Mohler, George Will, and Peggy Noonan. What liberals from past presidential cabinets have been invited to counter Dick Cheney and Condaleezza Rice? Who is coming this year to offset George Will and Peggy Noonan?

Please name the "numerous liberals" you claim to have spoken.

SlopJ30
St Louis, MO

@ ClarkHippo

I'll say it again . . this is "Chicken Little" stuff. The weather analogy is embarrassingly simplistic. A more apt one would read something like this:

If grandma's gout was acting up and she saw it as a sign that a twister was a-comin' despite clear skies, would you make preparations to protect their family and property from the storm, or would it be wiser to let the twister a-come and then scramble for the storm shelter?

People invent false future crises to galvanize current political action. The alleged movements to eliminate religion may exist for all I know, but if so they are confined to the fringe and do not demand my attention. There are any number of fringe groups supporting all kinds of fringey stuff at any given time. Are we going to take action to "protect" ourselves from every hint of a whiff of a whisper of the Next Horrible Thing to come?

Whatever. It's kind of a club you guys have going, no more based on reality than a Tolkien fan gathering. I’ll let you worry for me. Fight the power, man.

moniker lewinsky
Taylorsville, UT

I understand that the Deseret News is always going to lean conservative, but all these articles about the so called threat to "religious liberty" are really getting excessive. It seems that even the regular readers are picking up on it.
Times are changing and so are laws and we are not going backwards. It's never happened in the history of our country and it's not going to happen now.
As a liberal, I will participate in the fight to make sure that the changes are fair. But they are not going to go away.
People are not going to be denied their secular rights so that religious citizens can feel a smidge less threatened. That's not going to happen.
So yes. Occasionally liberal judges are going to overstep. Just like we're used to seeing conservative judges overstep. We can work together to make sure that the laws are fair. I'm sure there will be occasions to do that. But we are not going to use oppression as a substitute for problem solving.

Rural sport fan
DUCHESNE, UT

The entire argument between right and left is pointless, as long as the left insists that "the government" is some actual entity, and not simply the representative bodies of we, the people; while also insisting the "the government" actually DID anything worthwhile on their own, until prodded out of their comfort zone and forced to do the will of the people. HIstory has shown repeatedly that large expensive governments end badly. And history repeats.

Sadly, the will of the people in this age is utterly contemptible, morally skewed, and so filled with PC doublespeak as to make any meaningful discussion impossible.

Condemning the religious right for "forcing" their views on people, while applauding the courts for doing the exact same thing is insane.

Hospitality
SPRINGVILLE, UT

What lost thinking! Fact: A nurse does not need insurance to go buy a birth control pill. You don't need to kill religion in order to get a pill for her. You don't have to destroy liberty, or tax people to death. Just use the money in your pocket, dear nurse, if you want to buy a pill. Get rid of insurance, and we'll all be free, just as we were before.

Mountanman
Hayden, ID

After reading most of the comments from anti religious people on here, I have learned something from them; Thou shalt have no other god than the government.

Wastintime
Los Angeles, CA

@Mountanman

"After reading most of the comments from anti religious people on here..."

Just who are you judging to be "anti-religious"?

kaysvillecougar
KAYSVILLE, UT

@ Ultra Bob, interesting take that "poverty is the consequence of the economic game of uncontrolled Capitalism." I didn't know North Korea was a capitalistic society, or maybe I underestimate their standard of living.

In addition, help from people who love you is a tremendous motivating influence. It goes to the heart of human existence - relationships. I have been given things from the government, not bad, but when someone sacrifices for me, I feel accountable for their kindness and generosity, to go and do to others.

Pops
NORTH SALT LAKE, UT

@Ultra Bob, I don't understand your position. Are you saying that if I help my unemployed sister, that is somehow not voluntary? And yes, it does feel good, and impels one to embark on a path of doing greater good.

Yes, we could have a government that rules with a iron fist and compels everyone to do what's right, feeding the poor, caring for the sick, and making sure that nobody has more than anyone else. However, attempts to accomplish that always end badly, with a select few wielding all the wealth and power and with the preponderance of the population having nothing. (The number of people starved to death by their own force-the-people-to-do-the-right-thing governments in the last 100 years makes Hitler look benevolent.) This approach doesn't work because humans are corruptible.

We should prefer freedom. Freedom is not possible without morality. And morality and good works are prevented to the degree that people are economically enslaved and compelled to do the "right" thing.

Philippine Bonita
Sammamish, WA

@Shimlau @Ironmomo Where's the "LOVE" button? Duh! Your insurance does not need to cover birth control in order for you to obtain it. Anyone can walk into a pharmacy and purchase birth control or have a prescription for it filled using money from their own pocket.
Why should anyone have to pay for something that violates their values? Sadly, there are still plenty of places funded by public money and donations that dispense both birth control and death to fetuses.

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