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10 years later, Ravi Zacharias to speak at Mormon Tabernacle again

Published: Monday, Oct. 21 2013 8:20 p.m. MDT

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Bob K
porland, OR

The WORST kind of cheesy pandering.....

In the first place, religious organizations have way more influence over politics and laws than they did a few decades ago.

The present "selling point" is the phony lie that religious institutions are going to be forced to go against their beliefs to accommodate outsiders.
All that is true about this is:
1-- if a church (or a churchgoer) owns a public business in a state with anti-discrimination laws, they must treat all members of the public equally.
2-- some church organizations and businesses which are against contraception must see that it is provided to employees who want it.

Some businesses say "We don't want to do Gay weddings, they want to force us"
I would answer:
1- If you make photos or cakes, there are very few Gay couples who would want you, once you explained politely that your heart is not in it. If you answer with a sermon or put them down, they ought to sue you.
2--If you own a place where weddings are held (not a church), you take everyone, it's fair.

The real story is that some churches are afraid of their own Gay children.

Bob K
porland, OR

Vince Ballard
It may seem far fetched at the moment, BUT, there have been several times in L.D.S. history when Constitutional rights meant nothing when the public was seized by a mob mentality.... I believe this is why L.D.S. leaders are very nervous about legalizing same sex marriage; it may eventually be forced on us......

Living in 1890(unless you believe the priesthood change in 1978 was forced from outside) does not help you or lds church cope with the 21st Century.

The completely paranoid lie "churches will be forced to perform Gay marriages"-- No one with any political clout or import is trying to push for that. All that is true is that a church or two which own profit-making wedding halls were told to obey fairness.

If you know the lds faith so well, why do you not recognize that it is based heavily on heterosexual marriage and procreation, forming an obstacle to fully accepting your own Gay children?

The lds opposition to secular Gay marriage is due to fear your own Gay kids will want to marry in the temples. Look to the prophet and to God -- not the non-mormon Gays

BlueHusky
Mission Viejo, CA

Christ had been dead for nearly 300 years when Constantine convened the Council of Nicea in order to define the tenets of the Christian faith. Heavily influenced by neoPlatonism and the newly rediscovered writings of Aristotle, the trinitarian doctrine became the standard by which Christianity could be identified. So those who define Christianity as a belief in the Trinity declare that those who believe a more literal interpretation of the New Testament are not "christians".

The distinction is merely Greek sophistry. But Protestants are hair-splitters (accounting for the several thousand protestant sects) so they think this is important. I say, nobody knows what God does when He goes to work in the morning, but I'm pretty sure He is not a hair splitter.

1978
Salt Lake City, UT

"Some businesses say "We don't want to do Gay weddings, they want to force us"
I would answer:
1- If you make photos or cakes, there are very few Gay couples who would want you, once you explained politely that your heart is not in it. If you answer with a sermon or put them down, they ought to sue you."

So you should be able to be sued for having an opinion (no matter how it is expressed) different than those who support gay marriage if you own a "private" business.

I am speechless. And the way things are going - with my point of view - that is probably the only safe course to pursue.

Pa. Reader
Harrisburg, PA

This dude's remarks sound like a clear case of the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture...

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

@1978;

If you allow refusal of service to gays for religious reasons, it's only a baby-step to saying "I refuse service to Mormons for religious reasons", or "I refuse service to blacks for religious reasons", or "I refuse service to short people for religious reasons".

Bigotry shouldn't be allowed by businesses.

johnpack
Parker, CO

The problem in the public square isn't religion -- it's government. It'd be one thing if government were only in court houses, police stations, and the branches of government. It'd be fine to exclude religion from those places.

But government is now in everything (including how much water your toilet contains) and scanning all email & phone calls and internet posts. It's time to get the government out of education, email, phone calls, the internet, and the public square. Brigham Young warned Utah not to adopt taxpayer-funded schools. Now the anti-religion government has come to roost.

But let's welcome allies like this speaker. It's good to know we can work together even though we don't share every belief. Eventually, this speaker might even figure out that we believe that no one can be saved without believing in and accepting Jesus Christ. Our works are about re-affirming and strengthening our belief -- not in qualifying for salvation through some other means (as if that were even possible).

1aggie
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

If you believe this speaker is your ally then I've got some choice swampland to sell you.

scwoz
gambier, oh

Amen. Thoughtful dialogue between people no matter their faith or belief system is always acceptable to God and the start of acceptance is the willingness to listen to each other and to find those things we have in common and use them to build the Kingdom of God on Earth while we wait for our Savior's triumphant return.

teeoh
Anytown, KY

@Bob K

You really believe that “religious organizations have way more influence over politics and laws than then did a few decades ago”? Really? Seriously? And you come to this conclusion how? Is it all the theocratic laws that have been passed so frequently lately? Please, tell us about them…

You believe that the way for religious people to deal with over-reaching anti-discrimination laws is to explain “politely that your heart is not in it”? Seriously? I’m dumbfounded.

Brazilian Mormon
Morgan, IL

We are still failing to help evangelicals and protestants see that we believe in Christ. The pastor mentioned that we ""share love for the family, love for marriage, love for the gift of children, love of liberty and love of human society". How about love for Christ?

sharrona
layton, UT

RE: BlueHusky Heavily influenced by neoPlatonism and the newly rediscovered writings of Aristotle, the trinitarian doctrine.” Wrong,

The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one (*heis) these three agree as one(**en) (1John 5:7,8 KJV translation & JST). 3 persons one God, "one in substance”.

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person(substance, 5287,Hebrews 1:3.

(*heis,1520=the cardinal #1.) We are one=(en)they are one=(en) Jn., 17:20-22. One in unity,(**en 1722, Preposition) ) different Greek words.

C.S Lewis,” If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we would make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions]. How could we? We are dealing with fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about." The three personal God .
“Mere Christianity. Lewis gives some other analogies of the Tri(3) Unity.

Shelama
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

As an atheist I've often been asked by family, "But what if you're wrong?" Well, I tell them, I could end up with Charon on the Styx with the Mormons and Evangelicals.

This country and the world has huge problems. Ultimately, our best hope is science and secular humanism. Where religion overlaps with secular humanism, that's great. Where religion improves the quality of a person's life & death & family and community without hurting or imposing on other people, that's also good and it doesn't really matter that it's false.

All religious triumphalism is ultimately doomed to massive disappointment and failure but the last thing that religionists have to worry about in America is the loss of their religious freedom. They may lose a privileged status but that's not the same thing. The sooner we realize we're alone in the Universe the better. The sooner we decide to live inside reality the better.

brokenclay
Chandler, AZ

When Mormons point to Jesus' conversations with the Father as evidence against the Trinity, they betray their fundamental misunderstanding of what the Trinity actually is. This criticism carries great weight against a doctrine known as Modalism. Such evidence, however, is entirely compatible with Trinitarian teaching.

It's a shame that the Trinity is your reason for leaving orthodoxy, because it sounds like you didn't properly understand the teaching in the first place. The LDS want evangelicals to properly represent their beliefs, and yet they consistently turn around and paint us as Modalists. This is inconsistent, to say the least.

Grace
Bakersfield, CA

All comments here show why Mormons are still being evangelized and prayed for by Evangelical missionaries: We want you in God's Eternal Kingdom. You have us in your 2nd degree one (unbiblical); you are outside of the Biblical one by choice, unless your prophet reverses Joseph Smith's unique 19th century creation.

Likewise we reach out to the liberal, the atheist and the intolerant posters who are interested. When you redefine our Biblical message and who Jesus Christ is, we will not sit quietly and allow your revisionism to masquerade as Truth. You can accept or reject it, share and opine; you cannot redefine.

Silly untruths are repeated here with incorrect definitions of the Triune nature of God, the Councils, the Biblical salvation message, Jesus' mandate to preach and reach all with His Gospel. He is the one historical figure Whose attributed and clear message is most contested today. But when you quote that great theologian, Jon Stewart, that says it all.

Dr. Moehler simply registered his theological differences, least the ever-seeking "We're just like you" unbiblical organizations think dialogue means doctrinal equity.

teeoh
Anytown, KY

@brokenclay

I don’t have a PhD in theology. I may not truly, fully understand the doctrines of the Trinity or Modalism to know if I’m “painting” you as one or the other. But I read the Bible. I know what it says about God and Jesus Christ. And I’m pretty sure God does not expect a person to understand those post-Biblical concepts to know what it means to be a Christian. But I do know this much: In all my study of the Bible and of Mormonism, I’ve always found consistent, sound agreement between the two.

@Grace

You say that we "cannot redefine." Yet, I think that is exactly what mainstream Christianity has done with doctrines like the Trinity. I agree with Harper’s Bible Dictionary, that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible. I’ve read the Bible. Repeatedly. I can’t find it. It is a revisionist, post-Biblical doctrine. (And by the way, I do NOT think that makes believers in the Trinity non-Christian. Just mistaken on the doctrine.)

Shelama
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

If the Jewish life and Roman death of Jesus had nothing to do with fulfilling Hebrew scripture, and if the "atonement" is a contrivance at the center of the Christ myth and converting a failed, false, dead Jewish messiah into a successful, living Christian messiah, what does that make Christian theology and argumentative apologetics?

There is a place where Evangelicals and Mormons coincide perfectly: ...neither one can give a good reason to believe the Bible is the word of a god and not totally man-made.

Everybody has exactly the same body of evidence and for all of the high-powered Christian and Mormon (FAIR & BYU-Neal Maxwell) apologetics, they are still persuasive pretty much virtually only for those people who already believe.

Pretty much the only ways that virtually anybody enters into Christianity in the first place are either thru childhood inculcation or, it turns out, in rather profound ignorance of the Bible itself. Being able to quote chapter and verse and argue doctrine – and even memorize the entire Bible verbatim – does not make one knowledgeable of the Bible.

ute alumni
paradise, UT

loving the liberal posts, most often identified in lib states. interesting these folks take the time to read a newspaper they know does not espouse their liberal beliefs. keep it up. makes for good reading

Truthseeker
SLO, CA

re:ute alumni
"interesting these folks take the time to read a newspaper they know does not espouse their liberal beliefs."

#1) I read DN because it is owned by the church to which I belong. When/if the LDS Church divests itself of Deseret News most likely it won't be of importance to me. I find it curious that the LDS Church claims political neutrality over the pulpit but yet, puts out a decidedly right newspaper.

#2) I prefer to hear/read a broad range of viewpoints and news from the political spectrum. However, I don't care for programs where a.) guests/commentators are merely ranting, or demonizing others rather than having a respectful discussion and b.) blatant lies, distortions and misinformation go unchecked--which is why I no longer listen to Limbaugh, Hannity Beck and others.

3.) I was born and raised in UT and still have many family members living there.

sharrona
layton, UT

RE:Teeoh,”the Bible and of Mormonism ,… sound agreement.”

”They tell us that the BoM states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The BoM teaches No Such Thing! Neither does the Bible!”( Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation.
(Jesus)…born of Mary at *Jersusalem … who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost(Spirit) and bring forth a son yea, even the Son of God. ( Alma 7:10).

"In *Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet(Malachi) has written."(MT 2:5), Fulfilled Prophecy is what separates the Holy Bible from all other books.

The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:(Luke 1:35)

RE: Shelama, Jesus had nothing to do with fulfilling Hebrew scripture?

1) Passover (Lev 23:5) – Passover lamb (1 Cor 5:7) . Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation for the Passover.
2)Unleavened Bread (Lev 23:6) –Messiah's sinless life . A perfect sacrifice for our sins.
3) First Fruits (Lev 23:10) – 1Cor15:20, "first fruits from the dead." 3of7

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