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10 years later, Ravi Zacharias to speak at Mormon Tabernacle again

Published: Monday, Oct. 21 2013 8:20 p.m. MDT

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christoph
Brigham City, UT

I read Albert Mohler in a summer publication called "Eternal Perspective" in which he talked about fighting sin with truth and helping sinners with love. What caught my eye, was him confessing that Christianity is losing in America and will lose, unless youth and the young embrace the commandments and are pure and happy; it is all depending on the youth. Missionary work will save us, it saves marriages and saves youth; I feel for churches that don't believe in missionary work.

Nanook of the North
Phoenix, AZ

With all the whingeing about "attacks on religious freedom in the US", I have yet to hear of One Single Solitary Valid Example that represents a valid "attack on religious freedom." Some examples showed something that doesn't fly w.r.t. civil rights (e.g. I think a business choosing not to serve a gay customer is just as bad as a business choosing not to serve a black customer). Some aren't accurately reported (and when you dig down, you find it's not a proper "attack on religious freedom" at all). I know Elder Oaks gave some examples in a talk a while back, but further investigation showed that the issues weren't exactly as he characterized them. And some "attacks" were really just people criticizing the religious opinions of others (and remember, the First Amendment ALSO protects the right to free speech, and that includes the right to criticize the statements of others). So c'mon, people: Give me some good, solid examples of how your religious freedom is being attacked! 'Cause right now, I'm not buying it.

teeoh
Anytown, KY

@brokenclay

You’re right. Words mean different things to different groups of people. So, I agree that whether or not the term (Trinity) is found in Scripture is irrelevant.

However, according to BrentBot’s comment, Harper’s Dictionary entry says that the “doctrine” (not “term”) of the Trinity is not found in the NT. That is very much relevant and a problem for those who accept the 4th Century creeds of the Trinity.

Truthseeker
SLO, CA

Re:SusaninVA
"Having been a Baptist in another life.... I find this so scary that it may drive me from the Church I love."

Amen.

It is sad....and pathetic.

CortM
HOUSTON, TX

One of the most discouraging things about this story, to say nothing of the tangential sectarian conversations that have unfolded in the comments section, is that most people involved seem to be afflicted by a severe case of spiritual myopia.

Debra Barone, the long-suffering wife on "Everybody Loves Raymond", once exclaimed, "When you're on the Titanic, you load the lifeboats - you don't waste time yelling at the iceberg." Spiritually speaking, we're living on the Titanic, and instead of working together to save our families and communities, we're arguing over who's going to which Heaven.

I love InclusiveConsolation's comments! This is a time for tolerance, and acceptance, and unity, not a time to focus on the trifles that divide us (and that is not to suggest that anyone's faith is a trifling thing. But before I'm an American, or a Texan, or a Mormon, I am a child of God. So is everyone else. And that's the crucial thing.)

shamrock
Salt Lake City, UT

I can't deny that saying Mormons and Baptists won't go to heaven together but they might go to jail together is an attention-grabbing sound-bite, but It's out of touch with reality and fear-mongering at its worse.

In recent years, the US Supreme Court has actually increased the First Protection protections for both religious groups and atheists, and our religious rights are in no serious danger of landing anyone in jail.

JD Tractor
Iowa City, IA

"I do not believe that we are going to heaven together, but I do believe we may go to jail together,"

Well said. It's sad to think though that he has already decided he won't go to heaven because the Mormons will be there.

christoph
Brigham City, UT

Nanook of the north: look back over the last 50 years and you will see: it is subtle yet you can see, in 1960 eighty percent of adults in USA were married; today that is between 50-60 percent and dropping. Drug war (which we have lost) is another example, worshiping of the university, divorce, broken up families, secular society is winning for now, more and more people in their 20's are atheist, and fewer people are having children which brings down economies. You are correct, nobody is saying "You can't worship in church", yet Christianity is under attack by TV, Hollywood, universities, worship of sports, and other idols. The youth will save the day though.

mountainlocal
Brooklyn, NY

From Ted's Head:

The church has been through worse times than these. Extermination orders, murderous mobs, Federal Army marching into SLC, crack down on polygamy, etc. The church adapted, survived and is thriving. Can things turn? Absolutely. But I also think the church has a lot of money, political power, and allies on its side that weren't there before.

Many left the church when polygamy was outlawed and some when blacks were allowed into the priesthood. Guess what? The church is still around and doing quite well. It's international. I really don't fear church doors being shut and peaceful assembly being denied. Could tax exempt status become an issue? I suppose. But then is that what this fight is about? Money? Kind of antithetical to Christ's mission.

And if leaders are jailed like Martin Luther King and Joseph Smith, there message might only become stronger and more powerful. I still think it's fear based and somewhat groundless. And PS. I served my mission in Alabama and evangelicals are not friendly towards Mormons and I will never forget that.

Ernest T. Bass
Bountiful, UT

RG:
Sure, you can point to small pockets of poor humanity, but if you study even a small amount of history you will see how past civilization weren't any better than those you cite.
How were women treated historically?
Many civilizations simply discarded new born babies for being born the wrong gender, or because they couldn't take care of a child and without birth control that happened frequently.
The tribal mentality meant that outsiders were often killed for simply being outsiders. Or they were enslaved for the rest of their lives.
The fact remains a far larger percentage of the world's population has freedom and a voice. We are educated better than ever before. We have access to vaccinations and medicine. Clean water, shelter, food.....you name it, we have it better now. There is NO doubt about it.
It's easy to cherry-pick the few areas where civil rights aren't granted, but nobody can argue the world isn't significantly better than it's ever been.
So, let's help those who don't have it as good as we do. Isn't that what Jesus would do?

ulvegaard
Medical Lake, Washington

I was stunned when I read a couple of the comments claiming that religious freedom is 'not' under attack in the U.S and not to worry because it's in the Constitution. Well, so is the right to bear arms and though many are not aware of it, the U.S. Senate was narrowly defeated in ratifying a treaty with the United Nations that would have ratified gun control -- the same law they couldn't pass in this country alone. Many Constitutional rights are being eroded under the banner of 'progress'.

We are already witnessing religious groups being told that they cannot maintain certain doctrines and or standards because someone has filed a complaint against them. This is already happening in Europe in a major way and this country seems anxious to adopt all things European, including government run healthcare.

Unless we actively work to maintain our Constitutional rights, we can and will lose them.

Nanook of the North
Phoenix, AZ

@christoph - How much of that is "other people in our nation attacking our religious freedoms"? Satanic attacks, maybe. But no human "forced" people to start "living together" instead of getting married. No human "forced" people to use drugs. No human "forced" people to divorce more often. Yes, more people are doing things we think are wrong and sinful (or, it at least LOOKS like that ... who knows how much went on 50 or more years ago and just didn't get broadcast?). But that's not a threat to religious freedom, not in the sense we're talking about here w.r.t. government, the constitution, and our fellow citizens. Hollywood or TV showing stuff we'd rather not see? We can turn it off, and if others choose not to, that's they're choice. The spiritual fight against Satan is, indeed, real; but it's not the same as this "religious freedom" fight at all, and we shouldn't conflate the two.

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@morpunkt – “I don't see your point.”

I know… because you’re not understanding what ontology (or ontological) means. I was suggesting that perhaps Jesus was not speaking about himself as a being in relation to God the Father as a separate being, but was instead simply trying to put his own ego aside.

And I understand you believe what the LDS Church professes… whether it’s true (in the ontological sense) is a different matter. Obviously lots of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Jews, not to mention other Christians would disagree.

How do we decide who (if any) is right?

And your point about the Church of England is not analogous. The Anglican Church is State run and therefore is intricately linked with State laws. Not so in our country… the non-interference stamped into the 1st Amendment goes both ways.

USAlover
Salt Lake City, UT

"It is my belief that God will save all of His children, that he can and while if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they too may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God have climbed"

J. Reuben Clark

Bill Shakespeare
Salt Lake City, UT

This gentleman has half-shut eyes, not unlike Garfield the cat.

mountainlocal
Brooklyn, NY

ulvegaard:

The U.N. arms ratification you cited has nothing to do with American gun ownership but sets to regulate international standards for imports/exports on conventional weapons. How does that threaten the 2nd Amendment? Even when they ban certain assault rifles, people still can apply for concealed weapons permits and own hunting rifles. I fail to see how that changes the constitution. Again, I think you're reaching much like this speech.

And cite some examples of religious groups being told they can't peacefully assemble or where the government impedes free exercise of religion.

Europe doesn't have the same constitution we do, but I'd still like to hear some examples from there, if you have any.

Truthseeker
SLO, CA

Re:ulvegaard
"Well, so is the right to bear arms and though many are not aware of it, the U.S. Senate was narrowly defeated in ratifying a treaty with the United Nations that would have ratified gun control "

"Secretary of State John Kerry signed the U.N. Arms Trade Treaty on behalf of President Obama and the United States on Sept. 25. In a statement, he said the treaty is “about keeping weapons out of the hands of terrorists and rogue actors,” and “reducing the risk of international transfers of conventional arms that will be used to carry out the world’s worst crimes.” He added that the treaty “recognizes the freedom of both individuals and states to obtain, possess, and use arms for legitimate purposes.”
(Factcheck)

klangton
Akiachak, AK

As we celebrate what we have in common with the Baptists, we might want to keep in mind we share the same beliefs with many radical Muslim worshipers.

sharrona
layton, UT

RE: BrentBot: Before the creeds,Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225 AD),used the term Trinity (trinitas), the oldest extant formal exposition of a Trinitarian theology. "three Persons, one Substance". (from Koine Greek) "treis hypostases”. Same substance or nature=hypostases, Hebrews 11:3.

RE: Albert Mohler listed ways that all Southern Baptists are Calvinists at the 2006 SBC Pastor’s Conference
A belief in the inerrancy of Scripture - We really do believe that God can work in such a way that the human will wills to do what God wills that will to do. And that is exactly why we believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. We do not believe that the Apostle Paul was irresistibly against his will drawn to write the Book of Romans.”

Affirming the omniscience of God – “ God created this world knowing exactly who would come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Some of us believe more than that, but certainly none of us here believes less than that. If that be so, then the precise identity of all the persons who would come to faith in Christ was known by the Father before the world was created.”

LDS
Cedar City, UT

As we promote religious freedom, we need to also promote religious freedom for all.

That may mean allowing Muslim dress, recognizing Jewish holidays and Catholic Saints days. And symbols of other religions, such as the Star of David and Crucifix need their place in our push for the symbol of the Cross.

Accommodating Muslim prayers several times a day. Recognizing, accommodating and respecting Sabbaths other than Sunday (Seventh-Day Adventists and Jewish Friday PM to Saturday PM). And teaching our children about other religions and teaching them respect for other beliefs.

This freedom effort gathering momentum has great potential to bring about greater love and widespread good will.

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