10 years later, Ravi Zacharias to speak at Mormon Tabernacle again
The word set is defined many ways in the dictionary, as is christianity. because
one chooses a different one does not make him wrong. Their are many types of
christians. As with the word set, Which one I choose does not make me more right
or wrong but different.
I wonder if the evangelicals are recognizing the power of the organization of
the L D S church and the power of the numbers in the church.
Hmmmm... Let's see if I got all the talking points that Mohler was trying
to get across:- Mormons are going straight to hell but evangelicals
will still tolerate them; at least until they've gotten rid of the
Muslims...- We are threatened by an increasingly "secular"
state even though political studies seem to indicate a move to the political
"right" over the last 20 years. We should embrace a Theocracy instead
(an evangelical one at that!).- We should oppose even the most basic
protections under the laws for those who don't share our religious beliefs
(gay marriage, etc).- We should follow the model of radical
evangelicals in Africa (such as those who have been working toward making
homosexual relationships a crime punishable by death).- We should
impose strict censorship laws to protect "religious liberty" (as opposed
to "erotic liberty"? Really?)Mohler did make one thing clear
by repeating it more than once: his belief that "we" are not going to
Heaven together. This statement clearly shows that he believes members of the
LDS faith are going straight to Hell.I wonder what Jesus would think
of his message?Mike Iverson
When he says "I was speaking honestly" He inadvertently admitted that he
speaks dishonestly at times.
Seems albert likes to use fear to teach. I also notice that much of his
teachings are opinions. And can someone tell me what his salary is? If he gets
paid for preaching then clearly he does not follow the Savior who did not get
paid for preaching.
A couple of comments here have me concerned. Those that state that religious
freedoms are not under attack, must have a different definition of freedom than
mine. I see religious groups taken to court because they use public property
such as schools as meeting places on Sundays. These are tax paying citizens and
have had an agreement for this use for some time, but all of a sudden they are
being booted out? How is this not an attack on religious freedom? When people
have to fight in court to have a cross at a place of remembrance for a person
that was religious who died there and the courts say take it down... How is this
not an attack on religious freedom? You may claim to not care because you are
not religious so it's no skin off your back, but a society that can not
respect these non-intrusive basic kindnesses will not respect anyone's
freedoms (religious or not).
It's wonderful that people of differing religions are coming together to
stand for what we feel like most precious-- our religious liberty.
Re:!nkspot"Perhaps the next time there is a Mormon running for
President, we won't have 10 million Evangelicals throw the election by
refusing to vote."Do you really think Romney's Mormonism
trumped his flip-flopping as the reason some conservatives didn't support
Perhaps the next time there is a Mormon running for President, we won't
have 10 million Evangelicals throw the election by refusing to vote.
RE:Teeoh,”the Bible and of Mormonism ,… sound agreement.””They tell us that the BoM states that Jesus was begotten of the
Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The BoM teaches No Such Thing!
Neither does the Bible!”( Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of
Salvation.(Jesus)…born of Mary at *Jersusalem … who shall be
overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost(Spirit) and bring forth
a son yea, even the Son of God. ( Alma 7:10)."In *Bethlehem in
Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet(Malachi) has
written."(MT 2:5), Fulfilled Prophecy is what separates the Holy Bible from
all other books.The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power
of the Highest shall overshadow thee:(Luke 1:35) RE: Shelama, Jesus
had nothing to do with fulfilling Hebrew scripture?1) Passover (Lev
23:5) – Passover lamb (1 Cor 5:7) . Jesus was crucified on the day of
preparation for the Passover.2)Unleavened Bread (Lev 23:6)
–Messiah's sinless life . A perfect sacrifice for our sins. 3)
First Fruits (Lev 23:10) – 1Cor15:20, "first fruits from the
re:ute alumni"interesting these folks take the time to read a
newspaper they know does not espouse their liberal beliefs."#1)
I read DN because it is owned by the church to which I belong. When/if the LDS
Church divests itself of Deseret News most likely it won't be of importance
to me. I find it curious that the LDS Church claims political neutrality over
the pulpit but yet, puts out a decidedly right newspaper. #2) I
prefer to hear/read a broad range of viewpoints and news from the political
spectrum. However, I don't care for programs where a.) guests/commentators
are merely ranting, or demonizing others rather than having a respectful
discussion and b.) blatant lies, distortions and misinformation go
unchecked--which is why I no longer listen to Limbaugh, Hannity Beck and others.
3.) I was born and raised in UT and still have many family members
loving the liberal posts, most often identified in lib states. interesting these
folks take the time to read a newspaper they know does not espouse their liberal
beliefs. keep it up. makes for good reading
If the Jewish life and Roman death of Jesus had nothing to do with fulfilling
Hebrew scripture, and if the "atonement" is a contrivance at the center
of the Christ myth and converting a failed, false, dead Jewish messiah into a
successful, living Christian messiah, what does that make Christian theology and
argumentative apologetics?There is a place where Evangelicals and
Mormons coincide perfectly: ...neither one can give a good reason to believe the
Bible is the word of a god and not totally man-made.Everybody has
exactly the same body of evidence and for all of the high-powered Christian and
Mormon (FAIR & BYU-Neal Maxwell) apologetics, they are still persuasive
pretty much virtually only for those people who already believe.Pretty much the only ways that virtually anybody enters into Christianity in
the first place are either thru childhood inculcation or, it turns out, in
rather profound ignorance of the Bible itself. Being able to quote chapter and
verse and argue doctrine – and even memorize the entire Bible verbatim
– does not make one knowledgeable of the Bible.
@brokenclayI don’t have a PhD in theology. I may not truly,
fully understand the doctrines of the Trinity or Modalism to know if I’m
“painting” you as one or the other. But I read the Bible. I know
what it says about God and Jesus Christ. And I’m pretty sure God does not
expect a person to understand those post-Biblical concepts to know what it means
to be a Christian. But I do know this much: In all my study of the Bible and of
Mormonism, I’ve always found consistent, sound agreement between the two.
@GraceYou say that we "cannot redefine." Yet, I
think that is exactly what mainstream Christianity has done with doctrines like
the Trinity. I agree with Harper’s Bible Dictionary, that the doctrine of
the Trinity is not found in the Bible. I’ve read the Bible. Repeatedly.
I can’t find it. It is a revisionist, post-Biblical doctrine. (And by
the way, I do NOT think that makes believers in the Trinity non-Christian. Just
mistaken on the doctrine.)
All comments here show why Mormons are still being evangelized and prayed for by
Evangelical missionaries: We want you in God's Eternal Kingdom. You have
us in your 2nd degree one (unbiblical); you are outside of the Biblical one by
choice, unless your prophet reverses Joseph Smith's unique 19th century
creation. Likewise we reach out to the liberal, the atheist and the
intolerant posters who are interested. When you redefine our Biblical message
and who Jesus Christ is, we will not sit quietly and allow your revisionism to
masquerade as Truth. You can accept or reject it, share and opine; you cannot
redefine.Silly untruths are repeated here with incorrect definitions
of the Triune nature of God, the Councils, the Biblical salvation message,
Jesus' mandate to preach and reach all with His Gospel. He is the one
historical figure Whose attributed and clear message is most contested today.
But when you quote that great theologian, Jon Stewart, that says it all.Dr. Moehler simply registered his theological differences, least the
ever-seeking "We're just like you" unbiblical organizations think
dialogue means doctrinal equity.
When Mormons point to Jesus' conversations with the Father as evidence
against the Trinity, they betray their fundamental misunderstanding of what the
Trinity actually is. This criticism carries great weight against a doctrine
known as Modalism. Such evidence, however, is entirely compatible with
Trinitarian teaching.It's a shame that the Trinity is your
reason for leaving orthodoxy, because it sounds like you didn't properly
understand the teaching in the first place. The LDS want evangelicals to
properly represent their beliefs, and yet they consistently turn around and
paint us as Modalists. This is inconsistent, to say the least.
As an atheist I've often been asked by family, "But what if you're
wrong?" Well, I tell them, I could end up with Charon on the Styx with the
Mormons and Evangelicals.This country and the world has huge
problems. Ultimately, our best hope is science and secular humanism. Where
religion overlaps with secular humanism, that's great. Where religion
improves the quality of a person's life & death & family and
community without hurting or imposing on other people, that's also good and
it doesn't really matter that it's false.All religious
triumphalism is ultimately doomed to massive disappointment and failure but the
last thing that religionists have to worry about in America is the loss of their
religious freedom. They may lose a privileged status but that's not the
same thing. The sooner we realize we're alone in the Universe the better.
The sooner we decide to live inside reality the better.
RE: BlueHusky Heavily influenced by neoPlatonism and the newly rediscovered
writings of Aristotle, the trinitarian doctrine.” Wrong, The
Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one (*heis) these
three agree as one(**en) (1John 5:7,8 KJV translation & JST). 3 persons one
God, "one in substance”. Who being the brightness of his
glory, and the express image of his person(substance, 5287,Hebrews 1:3. (*heis,1520=the cardinal #1.) We are one=(en)they are one=(en) Jn.,
17:20-22. One in unity,(**en 1722, Preposition) ) different Greek words.
C.S Lewis,” If Christianity was something we were making up, of
course we would make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity,
with people who are inventing religions]. How could we? We are dealing with
fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about."
The three personal God .“Mere Christianity. Lewis gives some other
analogies of the Tri(3) Unity.
We are still failing to help evangelicals and protestants see that we believe in
Christ. The pastor mentioned that we ""share love for the family, love
for marriage, love for the gift of children, love of liberty and love of human
society". How about love for Christ?
@Bob KYou really believe that “religious organizations have
way more influence over politics and laws than then did a few decades
ago”? Really? Seriously? And you come to this conclusion how? Is it
all the theocratic laws that have been passed so frequently lately? Please,
tell us about them…You believe that the way for religious
people to deal with over-reaching anti-discrimination laws is to explain
“politely that your heart is not in it”? Seriously? I’m
Amen. Thoughtful dialogue between people no matter their faith or belief system
is always acceptable to God and the start of acceptance is the willingness to
listen to each other and to find those things we have in common and use them to
build the Kingdom of God on Earth while we wait for our Savior's triumphant
If you believe this speaker is your ally then I've got some choice
swampland to sell you.
The problem in the public square isn't religion -- it's government.
It'd be one thing if government were only in court houses, police stations,
and the branches of government. It'd be fine to exclude religion from
those places.But government is now in everything (including how much
water your toilet contains) and scanning all email & phone calls and
internet posts. It's time to get the government out of education, email,
phone calls, the internet, and the public square. Brigham Young warned Utah not
to adopt taxpayer-funded schools. Now the anti-religion government has come to
roost.But let's welcome allies like this speaker. It's
good to know we can work together even though we don't share every belief.
Eventually, this speaker might even figure out that we believe that no one can
be saved without believing in and accepting Jesus Christ. Our works are about
re-affirming and strengthening our belief -- not in qualifying for salvation
through some other means (as if that were even possible).
@1978;If you allow refusal of service to gays for religious reasons,
it's only a baby-step to saying "I refuse service to Mormons for
religious reasons", or "I refuse service to blacks for religious
reasons", or "I refuse service to short people for religious
reasons".Bigotry shouldn't be allowed by businesses.
This dude's remarks sound like a clear case of the philosophies of men,
mingled with scripture...
"Some businesses say "We don't want to do Gay weddings, they want
to force us"I would answer:1- If you make photos or cakes, there
are very few Gay couples who would want you, once you explained politely that
your heart is not in it. If you answer with a sermon or put them down, they
ought to sue you."So you should be able to be sued for having an
opinion (no matter how it is expressed) different than those who support gay
marriage if you own a "private" business. I am speechless.
And the way things are going - with my point of view - that is probably the only
safe course to pursue.
Christ had been dead for nearly 300 years when Constantine convened the Council
of Nicea in order to define the tenets of the Christian faith. Heavily
influenced by neoPlatonism and the newly rediscovered writings of Aristotle, the
trinitarian doctrine became the standard by which Christianity could be
identified. So those who define Christianity as a belief in the Trinity declare
that those who believe a more literal interpretation of the New Testament are
not "christians".The distinction is merely Greek sophistry.
But Protestants are hair-splitters (accounting for the several thousand
protestant sects) so they think this is important. I say, nobody knows what God
does when He goes to work in the morning, but I'm pretty sure He is not a
Vince BallardIt may seem far fetched at the moment, BUT, there have been
several times in L.D.S. history when Constitutional rights meant nothing when
the public was seized by a mob mentality.... I believe this is why L.D.S.
leaders are very nervous about legalizing same sex marriage; it may eventually
be forced on us......Living in 1890(unless you believe the
priesthood change in 1978 was forced from outside) does not help you or lds
church cope with the 21st Century.The completely paranoid lie
"churches will be forced to perform Gay marriages"-- No one with any
political clout or import is trying to push for that. All that is true is that a
church or two which own profit-making wedding halls were told to obey
fairness.If you know the lds faith so well, why do you not recognize
that it is based heavily on heterosexual marriage and procreation, forming an
obstacle to fully accepting your own Gay children?The lds opposition
to secular Gay marriage is due to fear your own Gay kids will want to marry in
the temples. Look to the prophet and to God -- not the non-mormon Gays
The WORST kind of cheesy pandering.....In the first place, religious
organizations have way more influence over politics and laws than they did a few
decades ago.The present "selling point" is the phony lie
that religious institutions are going to be forced to go against their beliefs
to accommodate outsiders.All that is true about this is:1-- if a
church (or a churchgoer) owns a public business in a state with
anti-discrimination laws, they must treat all members of the public equally.2-- some church organizations and businesses which are against contraception
must see that it is provided to employees who want it.Some
businesses say "We don't want to do Gay weddings, they want to force
us"I would answer:1- If you make photos or cakes, there are very
few Gay couples who would want you, once you explained politely that your heart
is not in it. If you answer with a sermon or put them down, they ought to sue
you.2--If you own a place where weddings are held (not a church), you take
everyone, it's fair.The real story is that some churches are
afraid of their own Gay children.
As we promote religious freedom, we need to also promote religious freedom for
all.That may mean allowing Muslim dress, recognizing Jewish holidays
and Catholic Saints days. And symbols of other religions, such as the Star of
David and Crucifix need their place in our push for the symbol of the Cross.Accommodating Muslim prayers several times a day. Recognizing,
accommodating and respecting Sabbaths other than Sunday (Seventh-Day Adventists
and Jewish Friday PM to Saturday PM). And teaching our children about other
religions and teaching them respect for other beliefs.This freedom
effort gathering momentum has great potential to bring about greater love and
widespread good will.
RE: BrentBot: Before the creeds,Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225 AD),used the
term Trinity (trinitas), the oldest extant formal exposition of a Trinitarian
theology. "three Persons, one Substance". (from Koine Greek) "treis
hypostases”. Same substance or nature=hypostases, Hebrews 11:3.RE: Albert Mohler listed ways that all Southern Baptists are Calvinists
at the 2006 SBC Pastor’s ConferenceA belief in the inerrancy of
Scripture - We really do believe that God can work in such a way that the human
will wills to do what God wills that will to do. And that is exactly why we
believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. We do not believe that the Apostle Paul
was irresistibly against his will drawn to write the Book of Romans.”Affirming the omniscience of God – “ God created this world
knowing exactly who would come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Some of us
believe more than that, but certainly none of us here believes less than that.
If that be so, then the precise identity of all the persons who would come to
faith in Christ was known by the Father before the world was created.”
As we celebrate what we have in common with the Baptists, we might want to keep
in mind we share the same beliefs with many radical Muslim worshipers.
Re:ulvegaard"Well, so is the right to bear arms and though many are
not aware of it, the U.S. Senate was narrowly defeated in ratifying a treaty
with the United Nations that would have ratified gun control ""Secretary of State John Kerry signed the U.N. Arms Trade Treaty on behalf
of President Obama and the United States on Sept. 25. In a statement, he said
the treaty is “about keeping weapons out of the hands of terrorists and
rogue actors,” and “reducing the risk of international transfers of
conventional arms that will be used to carry out the world’s worst
crimes.” He added that the treaty “recognizes the freedom of both
individuals and states to obtain, possess, and use arms for legitimate
ulvegaard:The U.N. arms ratification you cited has nothing to do
with American gun ownership but sets to regulate international standards for
imports/exports on conventional weapons. How does that threaten the 2nd
Amendment? Even when they ban certain assault rifles, people still can apply for
concealed weapons permits and own hunting rifles. I fail to see how that changes
the constitution. Again, I think you're reaching much like this speech. And cite some examples of religious groups being told they can't
peacefully assemble or where the government impedes free exercise of religion.
Europe doesn't have the same constitution we do, but I'd
still like to hear some examples from there, if you have any.
This gentleman has half-shut eyes, not unlike Garfield the cat.
"It is my belief that God will save all of His children, that he can and
while if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the
same status as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will
have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they
too may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God
have climbed"J. Reuben Clark
@morpunkt – “I don't see your point.”I
know… because you’re not understanding what ontology (or
ontological) means. I was suggesting that perhaps Jesus was not speaking about
himself as a being in relation to God the Father as a separate being, but was
instead simply trying to put his own ego aside.And I understand you
believe what the LDS Church professes… whether it’s true (in the
ontological sense) is a different matter. Obviously lots of Muslims, Hindus,
Buddhists, Taoists, Jews, not to mention other Christians would disagree.How do we decide who (if any) is right?And your point about
the Church of England is not analogous. The Anglican Church is State run and
therefore is intricately linked with State laws. Not so in our country…
the non-interference stamped into the 1st Amendment goes both ways.
@christoph - How much of that is "other people in our nation attacking our
religious freedoms"? Satanic attacks, maybe. But no human "forced"
people to start "living together" instead of getting married. No human
"forced" people to use drugs. No human "forced" people to
divorce more often. Yes, more people are doing things we think are wrong and
sinful (or, it at least LOOKS like that ... who knows how much went on 50 or
more years ago and just didn't get broadcast?). But that's not a
threat to religious freedom, not in the sense we're talking about here
w.r.t. government, the constitution, and our fellow citizens. Hollywood or TV
showing stuff we'd rather not see? We can turn it off, and if others
choose not to, that's they're choice. The spiritual fight against
Satan is, indeed, real; but it's not the same as this "religious
freedom" fight at all, and we shouldn't conflate the two.
I was stunned when I read a couple of the comments claiming that religious
freedom is 'not' under attack in the U.S and not to worry because
it's in the Constitution. Well, so is the right to bear arms and though
many are not aware of it, the U.S. Senate was narrowly defeated in ratifying a
treaty with the United Nations that would have ratified gun control -- the same
law they couldn't pass in this country alone. Many Constitutional rights
are being eroded under the banner of 'progress'.We are
already witnessing religious groups being told that they cannot maintain certain
doctrines and or standards because someone has filed a complaint against them.
This is already happening in Europe in a major way and this country seems
anxious to adopt all things European, including government run healthcare.Unless we actively work to maintain our Constitutional rights, we can
and will lose them.
RG:Sure, you can point to small pockets of poor humanity, but if you study
even a small amount of history you will see how past civilization weren't
any better than those you cite.How were women treated historically?Many civilizations simply discarded new born babies for being born the wrong
gender, or because they couldn't take care of a child and without birth
control that happened frequently. The tribal mentality meant that
outsiders were often killed for simply being outsiders. Or they were enslaved
for the rest of their lives.The fact remains a far larger percentage of
the world's population has freedom and a voice. We are educated better than
ever before. We have access to vaccinations and medicine. Clean water, shelter,
food.....you name it, we have it better now. There is NO doubt about it.It's easy to cherry-pick the few areas where civil rights aren't
granted, but nobody can argue the world isn't significantly better than
it's ever been.So, let's help those who don't have it as
good as we do. Isn't that what Jesus would do?
From Ted's Head:The church has been through worse times than
these. Extermination orders, murderous mobs, Federal Army marching into SLC,
crack down on polygamy, etc. The church adapted, survived and is thriving. Can
things turn? Absolutely. But I also think the church has a lot of money,
political power, and allies on its side that weren't there before. Many left the church when polygamy was outlawed and some when blacks
were allowed into the priesthood. Guess what? The church is still around and
doing quite well. It's international. I really don't fear church doors
being shut and peaceful assembly being denied. Could tax exempt status become an
issue? I suppose. But then is that what this fight is about? Money? Kind of
antithetical to Christ's mission. And if leaders are jailed
like Martin Luther King and Joseph Smith, there message might only become
stronger and more powerful. I still think it's fear based and somewhat
groundless. And PS. I served my mission in Alabama and evangelicals are not
friendly towards Mormons and I will never forget that.
Nanook of the north: look back over the last 50 years and you will see: it is
subtle yet you can see, in 1960 eighty percent of adults in USA were married;
today that is between 50-60 percent and dropping. Drug war (which we have
lost) is another example, worshiping of the university, divorce, broken up
families, secular society is winning for now, more and more people in their
20's are atheist, and fewer people are having children which brings down
economies. You are correct, nobody is saying "You can't worship in
church", yet Christianity is under attack by TV, Hollywood, universities,
worship of sports, and other idols. The youth will save the day though.
"I do not believe that we are going to heaven together, but I do believe we
may go to jail together,"Well said. It's sad to think
though that he has already decided he won't go to heaven because the
Mormons will be there.
I can't deny that saying Mormons and Baptists won't go to heaven
together but they might go to jail together is an attention-grabbing sound-bite,
but It's out of touch with reality and fear-mongering at its worse.In recent years, the US Supreme Court has actually increased the First
Protection protections for both religious groups and atheists, and our religious
rights are in no serious danger of landing anyone in jail.
One of the most discouraging things about this story, to say nothing of the
tangential sectarian conversations that have unfolded in the comments section,
is that most people involved seem to be afflicted by a severe case of spiritual
myopia.Debra Barone, the long-suffering wife on "Everybody Loves
Raymond", once exclaimed, "When you're on the Titanic, you load the
lifeboats - you don't waste time yelling at the iceberg." Spiritually
speaking, we're living on the Titanic, and instead of working together to
save our families and communities, we're arguing over who's going to
which Heaven.I love InclusiveConsolation's comments! This is a
time for tolerance, and acceptance, and unity, not a time to focus on the
trifles that divide us (and that is not to suggest that anyone's faith is a
trifling thing. But before I'm an American, or a Texan, or a Mormon, I am
a child of God. So is everyone else. And that's the crucial thing.)
Re:SusaninVA"Having been a Baptist in another life.... I find this so
scary that it may drive me from the Church I love."Amen.It is sad....and pathetic.
@brokenclayYou’re right. Words mean different things to
different groups of people. So, I agree that whether or not the term (Trinity)
is found in Scripture is irrelevant. However, according to
BrentBot’s comment, Harper’s Dictionary entry says that the
“doctrine” (not “term”) of the Trinity is not found in
the NT. That is very much relevant and a problem for those who accept the 4th
Century creeds of the Trinity.
With all the whingeing about "attacks on religious freedom in the US", I
have yet to hear of One Single Solitary Valid Example that represents a valid
"attack on religious freedom." Some examples showed something that
doesn't fly w.r.t. civil rights (e.g. I think a business choosing not to
serve a gay customer is just as bad as a business choosing not to serve a black
customer). Some aren't accurately reported (and when you dig down, you
find it's not a proper "attack on religious freedom" at all). I
know Elder Oaks gave some examples in a talk a while back, but further
investigation showed that the issues weren't exactly as he characterized
them. And some "attacks" were really just people criticizing the
religious opinions of others (and remember, the First Amendment ALSO protects
the right to free speech, and that includes the right to criticize the
statements of others). So c'mon, people: Give me some good, solid examples
of how your religious freedom is being attacked! 'Cause right now,
I'm not buying it.
I read Albert Mohler in a summer publication called "Eternal
Perspective" in which he talked about fighting sin with truth and helping
sinners with love. What caught my eye, was him confessing that Christianity
is losing in America and will lose, unless youth and the young embrace the
commandments and are pure and happy; it is all depending on the youth.
Missionary work will save us, it saves marriages and saves youth; I feel for
churches that don't believe in missionary work.
As a practicing Mormon, I find consolation in my firm belief that, contrary to
speaker Mohler's assertion, devout Mormons and Baptisits can end up
"going to heaven together" despite theological differences in this life.
I am grateful for a doctrine of inclusiveness rather than one of exclusivity.
@ brokenclay: "The LDS and evangelicals do not share the same eternal
destiny."Uh, we're OK with that.It's like
a few years ago, when the Church responded to the Vatican's decision that
the Roman Catholic Church would accept as valid those baptisms of major
Protestant sects, but not that of the LDS Church, "We are neither offended
@ Tyler DJesus' ontological, (state of being), never changes. He
mission never waivered. I don't see your point. The concept of the 3 in 1
is purely Greek-philosophical in origin, mingle with scripture.Ontological
experiences can happen for us mere mortals, but not the Godhead. It is one in
purpose, just a the LDS church rightly professes.
Secularism is not out to put you, Mormons, or anyone else in jail together,
Reverend Mohler. It’s what guarantees your right to adhere to your faith
and your theological agenda.
@ Ernest T. Bass"It is a complete falsehood that people and societies
are getting worse. It's not even debatable."I guess you
have never lived in North Korea, or in Nazi Germany.@ all the people
who think religious liberty is not under threat: many posters have already
identified instances in this country and in other Western, democratic countries
where it is under threat. Amazingly brutal things have happened in this world in
countries once deemed safe and prosperous. Don't think it cannot happen, or
hasn't already begun.
In "How The West Really Lost God", Mary Eberstadt makes a credible
argument that the core problem is a breakdown in the family: secularization has
come because the family has imploded, not because religion is under attack.
When religious values are not being established at home, they do not get
established in the wider culture.It's easy to blame
Secularization and shadowy conspiracies for the erosion of religious values.
It's a lot more difficult to admit that we have failed our families, by
failing to teach and to live religious values. Half the babies in America are
born out of wedlock. Americans spend nearly $5 billion a year on online
pornography (and per capita, more of that is spent in Utah than in any other
state). It's naive to assume that all that stuff is only happening in
"bad" homes. On both ends of the spectrum, personal biases and
political viewpoints masquerade as Christian values. We do what we want, when
we want, and claim it's God's will. Then, when we find
ourselves mired in a Godless world, we blame the state, or the media, or the
Communists. The enemy is us.
@morpunkt – “I often wondered why Christ, while agonized in the
Garden of Gethsemane, prayed "not My will, but Thine will be done."Perhaps rather than being an ontological statement it is a psychological
statement. Spiritual teachers throughout history have said similar
things about “getting their own ego out of the way and letting God work
through them.”I know Christians believe Jesus was wholly
unique but when reading the Bible without all the Christian doctrine
metaphysical presuppositions, he sounds remarkably similar to many spiritual
geniuses who came before and after him.
He is exactly right. We are not going to the heaven together. I am going with
my wife. But, he will be given the opportunity to accept the gospel in its
fullness and go with his wife.
@TA1FYI- As we speak, the Church of England is having to fight a lawsuit
against charges of discrimination for refusing to marry a gay couple.Read
the news my friend. It's already happining across the pond. The agenda is
@americanalatina13;I really couldn't care less what you preach
in your churches, but it belongs in your church, not in our laws. Passing laws
that favor your religious beliefs violates the religious beliefs of others. The
fact that you're not willing to acknowledge this leads me to believe you
don't care about the beliefs of others.If one's religious
beliefs preclude them from providing the product or service that is their core
business to certain groups, they should choose a different business because
religious bias is not a valid reason to deny your product or service to your
customers.@Vince Ballard;If your church can't even
be forced to marry active, but unworthy, heterosexual members, how could it
possibly be forced to conduct same-sex marriages?@Red;LGBT have families too.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.Now if only they had a real enemy
instead of the faux persecutions happening all in their minds.
Spite makes right? The enemy of my enemy is my friend, as the proverb goes?
Baptists can suddenly put aside disdain for Mormon belief when they urgently
seek allies? Is identifying an object of mutual hate the sole common ground for
this sudden ‘ecumenical’ spirit?
Please stop with the articles on Religious Liberty being under attack - it is
simply not true and the more that the DN keeps writing about it - the more
people will be turned off. The younger generations have started walking out the
door. I have seen too many returned missionaries leave the Church. Please -
Write about real problems please - maybe about how we can all do a better job of
helping each other.
He came to BYU and he said Mormon and Evangelicals will not go to heaven
together. I guess that he probably meant that he thought Mormons are going to
Hell. Oh well, no biggy. He has his opinion and his audience disagreed. The
cool thing about BYU is that they are tolerant. If he said that about a lot of
other groups he would be shunned. People on this forum are denying that such a
thing is happening but I keep reading about specific instances where people are
getting forced out of business, fired, bullied for having viewpoint that are
contrary to the contemporary political dogma.I think that different
faiths should reach out to members of other faiths and form networks. I would
hope that those networks would include Moslems.It reminds me of an
oral tradition from about 400 years ago from a South Pacific island, smaller
tribes banded together to resist a larger tribe. It is wonderful the
perspective that one can get from genuinely embracing diversity.
@brokenclayTo accept the concept of the 3 in 1 Trinity is what I once
believed in, as a former Protestant.I converted to the LDS faith, in large
part, because I often wondered why Christ, while agonized in the Garden of
Gethsemane, prayed "not My will, but Thine will be done". This clearly
indicates 2 separate entities. If not so, Jesus would have been schizophrenic.
No disrespect in that jest.The great minds of yesteryear knew of the
fallacy of the Trinity, as well. Sir Isaac Newton, who, by the way, was a great
scriptologist, as well as the greatest legacy to science, refused to accept the
Trinitarian concept, even is his day, despite great pressure to do so, from the
Church of England.I am uncompromising in my viewpoint as much as Mr.
Mohler is in his. The divide between us is still there, and has a long way to go
to mend fences and work with the LDS, especially after the masses of Evangelical
backed Santorum's campaign and permanently bruised Romney's. Now, both
of our camps have to deal with the Obama agenda, which bodes poorly for us both.
For those of you who think this isn't a very dangerous slippery slope,
consider our own history. We ourselves were persecuted when our religious
beliefs were opposed by those of other faiths. What will happen here is that
conservative Christians will claim to be the victims of religious oppression,
and they will convince our people to side with them, and then when they've
won, they will turn on us and betray us and claim that for us to exercise our
religious freedom is an attack on their religious freedom. This whole
"religious freedom" quest is nothing more than Satan trying to trick us
into destroying ourselves, and we should have no part of it.
The man says "we won't go to heaven together" but that is OK. He
just doesn't know better... at this point in his existence anyway.
"Trinity" is simply a term which serves to encapsulate and represent the
teachings of a large body of Scripture. For this reason, whether the term is
found in Scripture or not is irrelevant. Mormons do the same thing in employing
terminology not specifically found in their writings. To say that Constantine
developed this theology as well as the term homoousios is a gross
misrepresentation of history, especially in light of the fact that Constantine
was baptized by an Arian bishop, and most of the emperors that followed him were
Arians who persecuted the orthodox church. Orthodoxy survived IN SPITE OF the
Roman leadership of the fourth century.One of the issues of
dialoguing with Mormons is that they are not familiar with technical evangelical
doctrinal terms. Just because Mormons believe in some sort of atonement does not
mean that they believe in penal substitution. They most emphatically do not.Albert Mohler is one of the great leaders of modern evangelicalism. He
is uncompromising, and this is evidenced by excerpts from his speech in this
article. The LDS and evangelicals do not share the same eternal destiny.
We all think we know so much...yet we can't even agree on the spelling of
potato...potatoe.We can't create so much as a gnat, or give
life to anything of our own creation...yet we boast in how much
theological upper-handmanship we have in our little pea brains. It would do
usall well to say more prayers, and hope for the best in whatever we
profess to believe...and out and help our neighbor....Leave the
politicians and theologians who argue, to their own feeble attempts
to convince the world of their truth. Light your "light" so shine.
People who are anti-family are anti-Christ.It is a slippery
slope.Whose side are you on?
It may seem far fetched at the moment, BUT, there have been several times in
L.D.S. history when Constitutional rights meant nothing when the public was
seized by a mob mentality. The presumption of: "it can't happen
here" always makes my hair stand on end. I believe this is why L.D.S.
leaders are very nervous about legalizing same sex marriage; it may eventually
be forced on us.
Correct me if I'm off on my interpretation, but I read Mohler's words
to mean something to the effect of, "I think you're going to [the place
of fire and brimstone mentioned throughout the Bible but is unable to make it
through the filter], but I have no problem using you when our interests
occasionally align."Fear mongering like this rubs me the wrong
way. Mohler's hyperbole is the type of thing that has no place in political
or theological discussion. (I do not condone that kind of language in LDS
To those who think religious liberty is not at risk, that persecution only
happened in the past, please pull your head out of the sand.It is
not just those who do not participate in homosexual marriages who are losing
their businesses, it is the all-out assault on anyone speaking or doing anything
in public who attends a church that preaches traditional marriage.It
is in zoning laws that prohibit the building of churches (of course they
don't come out and absolutely ban them, the regulations just become so
costly and burdensome that it becomes impossible to build or add onto any
religious facilities).It is found right here on these pages with the
overt attacks on faith. Their goal is to eliminate people of faith from the
It's a crying shame that these key leaders of the Southern Baptist
Convention didn't see the need to be united, during the last presidential
campaign. Very large numbers of their Evangelical faithful backed the losing
campaign of Rick Santorum, instead of Mitt Romney, just because of Romney's
Mormonism. I heard them say it, just here in my town in So.Cal. One can only
imagine how it must have been in the Bible Belt. This paved the way for another
easy victory for Obama's people, who now champion the agendas of
organizations who stand for ideas contrary to both of our faiths. I think they
finally realized the grave mistake they have collectively made. Too little, too
late, I'm afraid.
When the Supreme Court ruled against institutionalized prayer in schools, it was
a relief to my Presbyterian family in Utah -- who now did not have to listen to
the "majority religion's" prayer in schools.Religion
belongs in the home, and you practice it by how you live YOUR life. You
do not practice your religion by insisting that others publicly follow it, or
imposing its rules on all.
"I have to say, as someone who is not a Christian, it's hard for me to
believe Christians are a persecuted people in America. God willing, maybe one of
you one day will even rise up and get to be president of this country - or maybe
forty-four in a row. But that's my point, is they've taken this idea
of no establishment as persecution, because they feel entitled, not to equal
status, but to greater status." –Jon Stewart
"unprecedented and ominous" attacks on religious freedom".Keep scarin' 'em, and they'll keep throwing money at your
@Hank PymIt's just you. Seriously, I read your analogy and
From Ted's Head - why do we object to churches trying to "protect"
religious liberty? Because they are claiming that their religious liberty is
under attack as a means to assault other people's religious liberty.
Religious liberty is meant to be for all Americans (yes, even those who choose
to practice no religion), not just a select few who view their religion as
superior to others. Which is, incidently, why we have the 1st amendment in the
"You have confused a war on religion with not getting everything you
want." –Jon Stewart
I find it odd that detractors object to churches attempting to protect their
religious liberty from future attacks. It's not hard to see the hatred that
some hold towards organized religion, and it's not irrational to think that
those same people would press forward to take part in destroying organized
religion if they could. That they represent a minority is true...however we can
see with the gay agenda that a vocal minority can sway enough of the majority to
achieve its goals. It won't be mobs and tar-and-featherings...it will
happen in court. The LDS Church and others will continue to call homosexual
intimacy a sin--even after it is the law of the land--and the gay community and
its supporters will seek to silence or punish their critics for this "hate
crime" against a protected class. An additional liberal to SCOTUS and
religion's freedom of speech will be curtailed. Churches will defy the new
laws and will lose their tax benefits, right to assemble, and their leaders
jailed as God is removed from American government. Not next year or even in ten
years...but possible within a generation.
J-TX: You assume, just because I say that religious liberty is _not_ under
attack in America, that I am a non-believer? I am a temple recommend holding
member of the church. The fact that just because I sound "liberal," you
assume that I'm non-religious is, contrary to your claim, proof that
I'm spot on. It is also proof that church members' collective
addiction to conservativism is the worst thing that could happen to the church,
and we should denounce it outright.
"Wolf, wolf, wolf."In sheep's clothing, in sheep's
clothing, in sheep's clothing...
Is it just me or are Religious institutions like the squirrelly little brat in
every neighborhood who starts a lions share of the trouble? Then,
when others challenge him, he runs and hides screaming blue murder all the way.
It seems people are opposing pulpit oppression regardless of where it comes
from. There's no nobility in claiming victim status because your old power
is waning, but I guess some comfort in the idea it's affecting others who
used to get away with it, as well.
J-TX,Just as a matter of clarification, the year 325 is the fourth
"Going to get worse"Why do religious people continue to state that
falsehood?There isn't any way shape or form in which society is worse
now than it was in biblical times.I challenge anyone to name a past
culture of civilization that treats other humans better than our current one.Aside from irrational wars in far away lands, we are so much better off than
we've ever been. 2,000 years ago 97% of the Jewish people were
illiterate. The life expectancy was half what it is now. Diseases that are now
treatable of even gone were rampant.It is a complete falsehood that people
and societies are getting worse. It's not even debatable.
I don't know about going to jail together but they're both wasting a
lot of time and energy.
Why would anyone celebrate a commonality of having the same biases; believing
that Our Constitution is limited to religious prejudices, and available to ONLY
some people? Marriage is, has been, and will always be a State function in the
United States. Are you prepared to bow to Catholic Doctrine when Latino
Catholics dominate this nation? (and they will) If you advocate religious
beliefs affecting civil marriage, then prepare to bow to the Vatican.
Having been a Baptist in another life.... I find this so scary that it may drive
me from the Church I love.
The war on God, faith, and religion will continue to wage on because Satan never
sleeps but in the end, God will prevail and justice will be served to all
accordingly. As far as heaven is concern, we may not all go there hand in hand
but we will all be there. Religious affiliation doesn't matter, whether
you're Catholic, Baptist, Muslim, Mormon, atheist, or whatever! All will
be saved in heaven because that's the free gift afforded to all through the
atonement of Jesus Christ. Now as to what level or degree of glory in heaven
one gets depends on how valiant our efforts were while on the earth as far as
keeping and obeying the commandments of God. Thus heaven is not a place where
all will share and share alike as many believes. Each will receive his due
rewards according to his own deeds and works done while alive here on earth.
Only those who have received the fullness of the gospel and are found worthy and
valiant in their testimony of the Savior, are destined for exaltation in the
highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom in heaven.
elarue: You are on the wrong side of every point you make here. Truly yours is
the voice of the World. The mere fact that a non-believer takes the time to
comment on religious articles such as this and in this way is the very evidence
against your arguments.Onlythecross: Interesting that those who
most loudly decry Mormonism as a man-made theology desperately cling to and fly
the banner of a trinitarian doctrine clearly created by men in the 3rd Century.
From the Book of Mormon, the missionary Amulek illustrates the LDS belief in, as
you put it, "substitutionary atonement": (slightly edited for space)8. . . Behold, I . . . know that Christ shall come among the children
of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall
atone for the sins of the world; . . . 9 For it is expedient that an
atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God
there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; .
. . 10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last
sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, . . . but it must be
an infinite and eternal sacrifice.. . . 14 . . . and
that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and
eternal. 15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall
believe on his name; . . ., to bring about . . . mercy, which overpowereth
justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto
repentance. 16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice,
and encircles them in the arms of safety, Alma 34:8-16
The persecution complex among the religious is irrational.
Mr. Mohler, when you say "I believe that salvation comes only to those who
believe and trust only in Christ and in his substitutionary atonement for
salvation." What makes you think that Mormons do not believe that?As a "card carrying" Mormon, allow me to quote from the LDS Book of
Scripture called the Doctrine and Covenants. In it, we believe that Christ
Himself is speaking to Joseph Smith. He says:" 4 Saying:
Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast
well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom
thou gavest that thyself might be glorified; 5 Wherefore, Father,
spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and
have everlasting life." DC 45:4-5I do not know where you got
the false impression that Mormons do not believe in the atonement of Christ. We
may have differences of opinion on the importance of Greek Philosophy on the
nature of God, but never doubt that Mormons believe that the Son of God Jesus
Christ willingly gave His life so we could find mercy.
Let's see we have a racial and religious majority that runs the government
(you can't be an atheist and be a politician) claiming it is being
persecuted by a minority and this minority is threatening "our way of
life" by appealing to fear and this is pure ignorance...sounds like Germany
in the 1930's. This going to jail or any persecution is utter nonsense.
In the United States, as I read American history, we are living in the greatest
period of freedom and toleration that this country (and perhaps this world) has
ever seen. We are very fortunate. Not every modern nation is so fortunate.Yes, this also means that perspectives and doctrines that differ from
our own will likewise have a voice and may gain adherents. That's what
happens when you have a truly free marketplace of ideas. There will always be
voices in every movement that seek to silence contrary opinions, but general
decency and fairness (and the rule of law) will eventually prevail over such
extreme views (at least for the time being). We ought to enjoy the sunshine
while we have it as President Hinckley counseled us many years ago and let our
light so shine before men that they may see our good works and glorify God. "The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop
the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may
assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly,
and independent, till it has penetrated every continent..." (History of the
This is preposterous! Religious liberty is _not_ under attack in America, and
it's right wingers that are trying to paint themselves as victims of
attacks on religious liberty in order to try to scare Americans into subscribing
to their agenda, which is far more threatening to the family than anything
they're trying to scare us about. Even if gay marriage becomes legal, no
one is going to force churches to perform them, and we need to stop acting like
they are, or we're going to find ourselves threatened by something far more
dangerous to our families - Paul Ryan's budget!
True, a sandy foundation, but Mohler stated up front 'we're not going
to the same heaven together'. At least he doesn't do squishy,
feel-good friendship that downplays the divide.The Biblical Cross
and Calvary separates our theological message from Joseph's Gethsemane and
"After all we can do" rewrite.Mohler will keep the important
distinctives crystal clear. It isn't the evangelicals who seek to be
accepted into the LDS camp. As long as we're clear on our Gospel
differences, friendship and fighting for good causes is possible.
In this day and age Christians as well as Buddhists, Hindus and many other
religions must stand together to thwart the global jihad. Evangelicals have been
very successful in Africa and South America to my understanding and I appreciate
their missionary efforts. Mormons have a right to their own beliefs, but must
stand with other Christians such as the Coptics in Egypt.
The Emperor Constantine introduced the term, homoousious , which defined the Son
as “consubstantial” (one being) with the Father. Neither term or
anything like it is in the New Testament. Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry
on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined
by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be
found in the New Testament.”
...that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors
were all corrupt; that "they draw near to me with their lips but their
hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having
a form or godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
My top 10 words are; you, me, give, God, love, beauty, earth, compassion,
gratitude and justice. I think we can unintentionally, intentionally do things
because of belief. Blinded by greed or any of the 7 deadly sins. The spirit of
things [you matter] or the golden rule can be unintentionally changed to you by
evil, that wants that to be the spirit of things, than you don't matter any
more. No more smiles, betrayed, by lies.
" "… only those with the deepest beliefs and even the deepest
differences can help each other against the encroaching threat to religious
liberty, marriage and the family."---Wolf, wolf,
Religious liberty is not going anywhere. It is protected under the First
Amendment. I am not worried the government will lock the doors to my church. I
am not worried they will censor church leaders. The only law he came up with,
was two states banned mental health workers from saying homosexuality is wrong.
Again, how is this imposing on what I believe? I can teach my children what I
choose and so can the leaders from the pulpit. It may be unpopular but it's
not illegal. I think young kids are leaving the dogma of these types
because the message of fear isn't resonating with them. If the strategy
doesn't change, younger generations will keep leaving. Are things really
worse than they were in the sixties? Most have better lives, more opportunities,
more freedoms, and greater access to information. I don't think the sky is
falling. Maybe I'm wrong.
Playing the victim card because religion can’t be the tail that wags the
dog of government. Simple as the nose on your face. Jim n'
I'm glad to see these two groups working together. We seem to have long
forgotten that the First Amendment states Congress shall make no law respecting
an establishment of a religion or (more importantly)prohibiting the free
practice thereof. When you examine it pragmatically, separation of Church and
State (which is not in the Constitution itself) means stopping anyone from
practicing their religion, even on government property, is a clear violation of
the First Amendment. Of course those who blindly devoted to the alleged
separation clause choose to conveniently ignore that part of the Constitution.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" = a sandy foundation on which to
build a bond or friendship.
This Baptist minister is 100% right:It's going to get a lot
worse before it gets better, ie, before the Savior of the world returns.May we each, no matter our unique sects and branches of God-fearing
religion, keep the faith that God has given us.Good luck....
I am so glad that churches are working together on what things they share and
believe, we need religious unity and harmony to fight off the evils of the world
that are becoming stronger and stronger.