A Scientist: "The BSA should not take orders from the LDS Church."Should they continue to take orders from the LGBT?
To those who think the rock tipping was justified, you would have to tip over
every rock in Goblin Valley to make it safe were that the case. That rock was by
no means even close to the most precariously balanced in the park. Rock tipping
in state and national parks is not allowed because not only would nothing be
left if it were, but rolling rocks can be dangerous to others, particularly to
those who might be downhill.
The idea that these men were doing this to protect the boys or make the park
safer is ridiculous. The whole point of Goblin Valley is to look at these
naturally occuring rock formations that look and might even be precarious. Should we destroy Rainbow Bridge because a piece of it or the whole
thing might accidentally fall on top of someone? Their actions
clearly do not follow the spirit of "Leave No Trace" and I'm glad
the scouting organization decided to discipline them. I'm wondering why
more serious charges have not been leveraged against them.
They'll never be allowed to register as Scouters again, which effectively
means no callings with the young men, ever again.
The BSA should not take orders from the LDS Church.
I would like to hear a statement from the bishop of the ward these people are
with about how such behaviors will be prevented in the future.
While I gasped at the site of the toppling rock, I also think we ought to
consider that some of the blame ought to reside with the trainers of those
leaders.As a youth, I was a scout, but most of my meetings involved
playing basketball, so I didn't really "get" all the scouting
principles. As an adult, I was CALLED as a scout leader, and I admittedly made
some pretty dumb mistakes while learning on the job, trying to help the boys
have a good time in something that was considered "uncool".I
praise the willingness of these men to take on this responsibility to help the
young men. I doubt they APPLIED to be a scout leader, yet they willingly give
significant time and effort. It seemed to me, watching the video, that though
unwise, these leaders were trying to help the boys have a good time. I wonder if their local leadership required them to submit a tour plan and
helped them think through everything they would experience on this trip, helping
them plan and act wisely?Let's train our leaders a little
better. These leaders care about the boys. They deserve the help.
@ jcobabeI totally agree! Let's make sure the touching of any
naturally occurring object in the state of Utah is prevented with every possible
law and resource. Oh, wait, SUWA is already working on that...
Whether or not this was a thoughtless and irresponsible act, it is an obvious
indication that the entire San Rafael Swell and other public lands in Utah must
be locked up permanently to prevent any future malicious acts of felonious
ancient rock tipping. Humans are harming the natural environment and should not
be allowed. The state has effectively applied such preservation measures to the
Range Creek area, no reason why such methods should not apply to ancient rocks
in state lands throughout Utah.
I am a firm believer that the punishment should fit the crime; to me it seems as
though being kicked out of the BSA is la reward! That type of
"punishment" will only encourage more of this behavior.
Its amazing that we allow politicians to do so much wrong-criminally , civilly,
or under their oath to service the people--and when they do we do not rise up
against what they have done-sought justice-throw the book at them sort of
speak-- as we seem to have at these scout leaders- It seems like our priority of
morality, ethics-have been turned upside down--and why because its easier to
deal with the scout leader, the neighbor, etc--than it is to deal with those
inhigh places who have disgraced all laws and betrayed all those whom they have
served. A rock--seriously what crime was committed so heinous that 'the
book must be thrown at them', that 'they must be punished to the
fullest extent of the law'. Certainly, the scout leaders are not the ones
with the more 'serious problems and misjudgements'.
@hermountsThe LDS Church uses Scouting as the activity arm of the Aaronic
Priesthood. The adults are called by the Bishop, but they must register with
BSA, get training with BSA and meet BSA requirements. The ward is the
chartering partner, they do not trump BSA. When a volunteer is removed from
BSA, the Church must find another adult who meets BSA standards, as these two
did not. This is Boy Scouts of America, not LDS Scouts of America, which
doesn't exist. The LDS Church has a small pamphlet available on the Church
website that has the few things that the Church does in its program which differ
slightly from non-LDS sponsored units. BSA is aware of those slight changes,
but they do not mean that Scouting in the Church is totally different. They
meet the intent of the program as agreed to in the Chartering Agreement.
MemoFromA Demo, sure, let's not prosecute people who seem nice. Let's
just let everyone go into the park and push over the goblins as long as their
nice. No problem, right?nsteph, They should have thought of their
family before committing an act of vandalism.
Let's see, BSA red tape.......it's more human caused than policy
caused. Someone at Council wants it just so. Whoever completed the form left
off a critical piece of information. Following folk-policy instead of real
policy. What to do, what to do?I know, get involved at the District
and Council level. See what the issues are confronting the volunteers at that
level, then work to fix it. It works when everyone gets together to solve the
problem (hey, isn't there a message for Washington in this?) If something
is particularly onerous, bring it up at a District Committee meeting or Council
Committee Meeting. Get the ear of your District/Council Commissioner about
it.Oh, and back to the topic......These two men got their moment of
fun and the consequences follow. Good for BSA.
I agree with the previous comments. The YouTube video tells the real story.
They were using their kindergarten behavior. I do not believe their stories.
The guy made a mistake. He should do community service, but should not be facing
criminal charges. Why punish his family with his inability to provide for them.
We all need to relax and realize that we've all had stupid moments.
I am not sure they are Scout leaders, no uniform. This group in reality is an
unorganized group of children and adults wandering around defacing public
property. There is no excuse for this behavior. Scouting will work
with adult leaders who are trained and believe in the scouting program. I have
experienced courts of honor and Eagle boards when the applicant has no or only a
partial scout uniform, and the motivator is a parent who drives the young man.
In the background is an adult leader who also lacks a uniform and other than a
passing interest or commitment to scouting.I suggest that the LDS
Church get serious about having all men connected with scouting complete Basic
Scout Leadership courses before they are allowed outside. Too many men approach
Scouting as a lark, a recreational adventure using the BSA insurance as a cover.
No one expects perfection but wanton vandalism must not be ignored or
tolerated.Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but
footprints.The public has a right to be outraged, IMO.
Now if they had gone cow tipping, no one would have cared.Their
claim of lose rock doesn't jive with the effort it took to knock the rock
over. A couple of real dumb men. Maybe they need, as part of their
repentance, hoist the rock back up to where it was. By hand. A good hernia
would be just the right punishment for stupidity.
smart move. i do not agree with death threats but i agree with removing these
'leaders' whom show they don't have what it takes to lead with
the boy scout motto 'not to change nor destroy nature'.
mcdugall: I guess it is a matter of symantics, but I would consider it
"easy" whenever a 4 ton rock can be pushed over without needing 5 guys
with crowbars.Again, I wasn't trying to justify what they did.
I was just indicating that this particular rock would probably fall over on its
own very soon. After all, it was just sitting on a narrow piece of SAND which is
constantly being blown away by the wind.
I'm not defending the men for what they did. It was stupid, stupid,
stupid! But if we jailed every stupid person for doing stupid things, our jails
would be clogged with stupid people. All those who have ever rolled a rock down
a mountainside, (or did nothing to stop your kids from rolling rocks down a
mountainside), you are ordered to report to jail by sunset tomorrow. And to all
of us who have rolled rocks, even though those rocks may not have been perfectly
balanced on a precipice, they most definitely were "ancient". And we
disrupted the environment. I'm very much an environmentalist, more so than
ever. But come on people! Throwing nice men who are stupid in jail is
ludicrous. Do you really think they haven't learned their lesson? To all
you who are quick to condemn, I hope you're honest enough to report with me
at the jail tomorrow.
Let's admit it... "No Trace left behind" has NOT been taught and
modeled in Scouting in Utah for over a generation. I want to see some action on
the part of BSA and our local councils to stop these horror stories from
occurring. The boys deserve better. Public lands need to be respected.
Presumably these men were called to be scoutmasters by their bishop(s), and the
BSA shouldn't be allowed to undo a church action.
@altahoopsEven though I like being a scoutmaster - your post was
very funny and accurate, especially the BSA red tape comment!
After listening to their explanation, in addition to their other short comings,
they forgot that a Scout is always truthful.
Wow. I have camped many times at Goblin Valley as a scout leader and visited it
several times with my kids when they were younger. For us, it's an almost
sacred place. These gentlemen obviously don't appreciate the wonder of the
place. What they did makes me sad. I hope they are appropriately punished so
others as disrespectful as they might be deterred from future acts of vandalism
This seems to be much to do about nothing. I wonder what the story would be if
the rock had fallen on its own and killed or maimed a child, would the world be
chastising these two scout leaders for not having done what they did when they
saw it was not really sturdy. My how things have changed in my 87 years of
They need to be prosecuted for breaking the law. This despicable act was a
violation of the trust placed in the public when visiting national treasures.
Thousands of years of nature destroyed in one thoughtless act. There should be
no forgiveness in this dastardly deed. I am totally disgusted by these
low-lifes! And I hope they pay dearly for their stupidity.
Thoughtless, senseless, moronic behavior!
Did he earn the Rock Tipping merit badge?
What? Is that all that's required to get released from being a scout
master?? That's too easy. The appropriate punishment is to force him to
remain a scout master for 10 more years with strict requirements that he attend
every round table and deal with all the BSA red tape and ridiculous requirements
on everything. That would teach him a lesson.
@JoeCapitalist2 - Easy? Take a second look at the video. The man first tried to
push the rock while just standing on his two feet and was unable to nudge the
rock. He then proceeds to wedge himself between two rocks and begin to push and
only then is he able to move the rock. Also, take notice of the mans face, that
is not a facial expression of ease, it appears that he is over exerting himself
to move the rock. Since these two men have no exhibit any evidence
to suggest that are truthful, I would question weather they have received any
As a scoutmaster who has camped at Goblin Valley with my scout troop I hope they
throw the book at him. When I saw the video I wondered "Where is the adult
Charges should certainly be made for the rock tipping. Otherwise, what's
to stop the next person from doing the same and again getting away with it?
Someone could make a similar determination that every rock in Goblin Valley is a
safety hazard and knock them all down. What's to stop them? I would hope
for common sense to negate the need for legal recourse, but it's obvious
that common sense isn't universal.
I hope we don't live in a society that punishes people for pushing rocks
over. However, I am incredibly disappointed that someone can be so insensitive
to natural wonders. But please spend more time investigating his false claims of
disability than pursuing criminal charges for rock pushing.
@ Joe Cap: the guy had to brace himself against the rick behind him and use his
feet to knock it over - hardly "easy".
Good. The Boy Scouts have taken the correct action, and now it's time for
law enforcement and the courts to do the same. All three men deserve at least a
few months or perhaps a year in the Utah State Penitentiary and very heavy
fines. Such punishment will set an example for all vandals who desecrate public
lands. As a sidenote, it's amazing that worldwide response to this video
has labeled these men as everything that is wrong with the white American male
in America. Glenn, Dylan and David have certainly been humiliated in the court
of public opinion.
Obnoxious? Immature? Disrespectful. For sure.Criminal? For stealing
Given how little effort it took to tip it over, it probably would have fallen on
its own during the next big windstorm. Rocks in this area fall on their own all
the time. They are lucky it didn't fall the other way and crush him. It was
definitely a safety hazard but it was also very interesting to look at while it
was balanced.The men showed incredibly poor taste in what they did
and in their reaction during filming. I don't blame the Boy Scouts at all
for revoking their leadership. Stuff like this is a PR nightmare for the BSA.While public reaction is rightfully negative, things like death threats
and acting like they took a chainsaw to one of the giant redwood trees, are
overkill in my opinion.
Amazingly disrespectful for a "Scout Leader". He might first want to
hand that job over to somebody who actually embodies Scout principles.
This 'destruction' violates basic Scouting ideals... "no trace
left"... glad to see the enforcement of Scout policy.
It will be a huge miscarriage of justice if Emery County DOESN'T file
charges against these individuals.Hopefully, felony charges.
I would not send death threats, and I at first was trying to be understanding
about what they did, but to find out that he is on workman's comp for a bad
back, ummmmm, sorry, you lost my vote.