Comments about ‘Hawaii's largest faiths oppose same-sex marriage bill’

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Published: Tuesday, Oct. 15 2013 6:00 a.m. MDT

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FatherOfFour
WEST VALLEY CITY, UT

I have a good friend who is Jewish and therefore does not eat pork. That is all. He doesn't have anti-ham rallies, try to make bacon illegal, or protest outside of restaurants that serve pork. He just doesn't eat pork. Imagine if members of all religions just lived their religion instead of trying to legislate their religion.

Blue
Salt Lake City, UT

"Hawaii's largest religious denominations have come together in opposition to a bill that would legalize same-sex marriage in the Aloha State."

And fortunately, because we live in a constitutional republic and not an authoritarian theocracy, their opposition will have only marginal relevance to the issue.

Please, folks, don't attempt to go down the road of claiming that your religion is an adequate reason to deprive your fellow citizens of their rights. You _never_ win and you only end up damaging your religion.

Contrariuser
mid-state, TN

"A January 2013 Honolulu Civil Beat poll found that 55% of Hawaii voters were in favor of same sex marriage, while 37% were opposed."

"An August 2013 QMark Research poll found that 54% of Hawaii residents were in favor of same-sex marriage, while 31% were against."

The people of Hawaii favor same-sex marriage by a 20% margin over those opposed.

Get over yourselves, Hawaiian religious conservatives. The population of your state wants same-sex marriage.

Crusader
Layton, UT

For the life of me I cannot figure out why anyone would care if consenting adults want to get married.

Ronnie W.
Layton, UT

@Crusader, @FatherofFour

It matters because of the kids. I believe history has proven the best place for child to grow up is a home with a mom and a dad. A recent studied show children of lesbian/gay parents in Canada were 1/3 less likely to graduate from high school. If they can get married, can they adopt just like a heterosexual couple? It gets messy real quick.

Red
San Antonia, TX

Crusader,

It matters because they put clauses into these silly bills that force other people to marry homosexuals and if they don't they are punished.

What if homosexuals wanted to get married in the LDS Temples? Where do the homosexuals want the line drawn?

Most people can handle the fact the homosexuals want to get married, but they now want to force the rest of the world to accept them wherever they want to go.

That is the abuse of the whole situation. Homosexuals are not content with anything. You give Homosexuals and inch and they want to take a thousand miles.

It is worth the fight to draw a line in the sand and say enough.

Remember the Alamo!

The Skeptical Chymist
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

@Ronnie W

Even if I accept the results of the Canadian study that you quote, does this give us the right to prevent people from marrying the person they love?

Will you also want to prohibit alcoholics from marrying because they have a higher risk for abusing their children? What about people who don't finish high school? Their children definitely do worse in their education than those whose parents completed college. Should high-school dropouts be prohibited from marrying?

If the Canadian study is correct, it is just the beginning of what should be studied. If it is true, why is it that the children of these parents have a lower graduation rate? Are the parents disproportionately poor? Are their children teased unmercifully by the children of heterosexual couples in high school, and see the only escape as dropping out? There are too many unanswered questions here to justify preventing same-sex couples from enjoying equal rights.

Kalindra
Salt Lake City, Utah

@ Ronnie W: The Canadian study you reference is extremely flawed and doesn't really prove what it claims to prove.

Single people in Hawaii - gay or straight - can adopt children and Hawaiian law does not clearly prohibit adoption by unmarked gay couples.

Red Bundy - a mass murderer - got married and fathered a child while in prison. Both of the guys who comprised the Hillside Strangler duo got married while in prison.

Your argument has no solid foundation on which to stand.

Hutterite
American Fork, UT

Fortunately, they're just religions, and not the larger society.

Contrariusester
mid-state, TN

@Ronnie W. --

"It matters because of the kids."

If you were truly motivated by a concern for kids, then you would also want to ban the marriages of poor people, of uneducated people, of drug addicts, and of murderers. We KNOW that poverty, ignorance, addiction, and crime affect kids.

So -- do you want to ban these types of marriages?

If not, then "the kids" aren't really what you're worried about.

"A recent studied show children of lesbian/gay parents in Canada were 1/3 less likely to graduate from high school. "

No it didn't.

That researcher compared UNMARRIED gay couples to MARRIED straight couples. At the very most he showed that stable homes are better for kids than unstable ones. And we already knew that. His findings had NOTHING to do with gender or orientation.

"If they can get married, can they adopt just like a heterosexual couple?"

Unmarried gay couples can ALREADY adopt "just like heterosexual couples" in most states. In Utah, SINGLE gay people can adopt -- but NOT gay people in committed relationships. How does that make any sense at all?

Marriage is GOOD for kids. And that includes gay marriage.

procuradorfiscal
Tooele, UT

Re: "Get over yourselves, Hawaiian religious conservatives."

So, Utah's irreligious liberals should also get over themselves, as the vast, vast majority of Utahns oppose gay marriage, right?

Yeah, I thought not.

It's funny how liberals are all for free speech and freedom of association, and freedom to petition leaders for redress of grievances, and freedom of political thought -- UNLESS those people happen to disagree with some liberal dogma.

In which case, liberals HEAVILY favor of the Taliban approach, instead.

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

"What remains unclear is whether the faith groups opposed to the bill are united in an effort to put the marriage question before voters."

--- The US Constititution applies to all American citizens. Religious citizens do not get to vote on whether people they don't like can hvae the same rights they enjoy.

"...more than 20 years ago when the state's Supreme Court ruled that not issuing a marriage license to a gay couple violated the state constitution's guarantee of equal protection."

--- And yet here we are, 20 years later and discrmination against LGBT couples is still going strong.

"a reaffirmation of our position in relation to same-sex marriage and religious liberty issues."

--- That's right. Individual liberty doesn't matter.

The 1998 Constitutional Amendment violates the rights of LGBT Hawaiians.

@Red (good name choice since you put out a "red" herring).

Mormons don't even have to marry unworthy straight couples in their temples, what makes you think they could be forced to marry a gay couple?

Ronnie W.
Layton, UT

@Contrariusester

A quote from the study

"[The Study] was able to isolate and analyze hundreds of children living with a gay or lesbian couple (either married or in a “common law” relationship akin to cohabitation).
...children of married opposite-sex families have a high graduation rate compared to the others; children of lesbian families have a very low graduation rate compared to the others; and the other four types [common law, gay, single mother, single father] are similar to each other and lie in between the married/lesbian extremes."

I don't claim that the current laws make sense. I am saying though, personally, I don't believe a gay couple should be able to adopt. Just like I don't think a house where there is drug abuse, extreme poverty or violence should be able to adopt. I think history history has proven, having a mom and a dad is the best situation to raise a kid.

Kalindra
Salt Lake City, Utah

Sorry - my last post should have said "unmarried gay couples." (Stupid autocorrect - lol!)

@ Red: Name on state or country where same-sex marriage is legal and same-sex couples have attempted to force a church opposed to same-sex marriage to perform a same-sex wedding ceremony.

(And the law Hawaii is looking to pass has a provision that very clearly protects churches from having to perform same-sex weddings.)

Contrariusester
mid-state, TN

@procuradorfiscal --

"So, Utah's irreligious liberals should also get over themselves, as the vast, vast majority of Utahns oppose gay marriage, right?

Yeah, I thought not."

You're forgetting this annoying little thing called the US Constitution.

In order to be good legislation, any law MUST conform to the US Constitution. If it is unconstitutional, it doesn't matter **how** many people support it -- it's still an invalid law.

Fortunately, same-sex marriage complies with the US Constitution. It's absolutely REQUIRED by the principles embodied in the Equal Protection clause of the Constitution. Further, states which don't allow gay marriage and don't recognize gay marriages from other states are violating the Full Faith and Credit clause of that same constitution.

"It's funny how liberals are all for free speech and freedom of association, and freedom to petition leaders for redress of grievances, and freedom of political thought -- UNLESS those people happen to disagree with some liberal dogma."

Try again. We're all for free speech, etc. -- and very especially INCLUDING the principles of the US Constitution.

Read it -- you might actually like it.

DEW
Sandy, UT

I say get those outsiders (including liberals) leave the islands and have those native polynesians have their own country back the way it was.

toosmartforyou
Farmington, UT

Oh my, lets hear yet again why the foundations of family and the definitions of marriage, centuries old, are incorrect because they favor following a normal pattern of nature. The unnatural always want to think their impulses are the norm and should be "respected." So let's hear it all again about "rights" and so forth.

Contrariusester
mid-state, TN

@Ronnie W. --

"was able to isolate and analyze hundreds of children living with a gay or lesbian couple (either married or in a “common law” relationship akin to cohabitation)."

Ronnie, the study used 2006 Canadian census data. But gay marriage was only legalized in Canada in 2005.

So:

1. there would have been very very few married gay couples in the sample at all; and
2. any married gay couples would have been married for at THE VERY MOST one year.

So -- as I said previously -- what Allen really studied was unmarried couples compared to married couples. IOW, instability vs. stability.

"I don't believe a gay couple should be able to adopt."

As I and other people have already pointed out, gay couples can ALREADY adopt -- with or without marriage.

Denying marriage to gay couples won't change that.

@DEW --

"I say get those outsiders (including liberals) leave the islands and have those native polynesians have their own country back the way it was."

You do realize that some Polynesian cultures are famous for their laxity concerning sexual mores -- right?

Some Polynesian cultures have even recognized and honored "third gendered" people for centuries.

Soo....

Ronnie W.
Layton, UT

@Contrariusester

"It's[same-sex marriage] absolutely REQUIRED by the principles embodied in the Equal Protection clause of the Constitution"

Just your interpretation of it. Show me where it says gay/lesbian couples must be allowed to marry.

vangroovin
West Jordan, UT

Who are we to change God's laws? He has given us laws so that we can be happy forever. And then there are those who try to manipulate those laws to fit their personal desires. We are free to do what we will, free to choose whatever path we will, free to interpret or manipulate eternal laws as we will, but we are not free to choose the consequences of those choices. Whether we see and/or experience the consequences now or not doesn't change Truth.

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