We should be fighting the democrats, not amongst ourselves. But I suppose if we
don't get our own house in order first, there's not a snowball's
chance we'll have the will or ability to beat the dems. A house divided
cannot stand. I tend toward supporting the moderate republicans and
think ideologues could benefit from re-examining their arm-twisting tactics.
And I feel rotten being one of those who causes dissension among our own
party/ranks, but the tea-partiers inflexibility and complete lack of cooperation
are scary. Of course I'd like a moderate republican in office, but
I'd rather have a MODERATE democrat in power (that does NOT include Obama,
Reid, Clinton, or Pelosi) than a fanatic of any persuasion.But of
course you are free to believe as you wish. That's the beauty of the
Tea Party perish on principle? Hardly. More like perish on Koch Brother big
Any men out there that believe in individual responsibility?
Re:pragmatistferlifeYou quoted me about the options I had in
Italy/France versus here. Is this an invalid statement? To say so is to simply
say that I am lying. I find that childish as that truly was my experience. I
am grateful that a flight home was provided, a test that I had to wait six
months for in Italy I could get in 24 hrs here, and a surgery that I needed
could be performed a few hours later. I am alive because of the flexibility and
opportunities here in the US versus that which I had in Europe.My
point is and remains that it is my belief that the direction away from
free-market principle in our health care system is a mistake. I gave the
anecdotal example simply to help me make that point. Not to prove it, not to be
the lone source of justification for it, but rather to strengthen my belief that
a free-market approach to health care would be a preferable alternative to the
direction we are now heading.So perhaps I should not say that your
response was ridiculous but rather...just not valid.
"The inference was yours not mine. I am not looking to one up anyone in
terms of experiences. Those are your words."Really?Here's what pragmatist said:"Samson01, to make the
inference that our system is superior because you personally feel you had better
treatment options here is ridiculous."This is what he was
responding to:" I have been subject to the health care system in
both Italy and France and will say that the care options I have here in the US
far surpass what was available to me there. In one case, a flight home was
life-saving."You absolutely are saying "that our system is
superior because you [felt] you had better treatment options here. . . "But never mind. I wonder how you see this working: "I
have long advocated for a free-market solution to health care." What does
that mean? Specifically.
"Like everyone else, I chose to use the numbers that represented my position
the best, like everyone else."Actually, Vickie, not everyone
else chooses to do this. What you are doing is basing your argument on
misinformation. Many people do not do this. But I have noticed that
conservatives do it quite a bit. See, when you leave out numbers, or context, or
other pertinent points, you are not giving an adequate representation of the
issue, and if you have to do this it would indicate that you have a very weak
argument. See, a strong argument would be based on looking at all
sides of an issue, and being able to present all the sides, and yet still show
that your argument is the best. Those that have strong arguments do not need to
fudge the numbers. But I do notice that many conservatives do fudge the
numbers.-CKJ1, phony polling numbers by Democratic operatives? What
in the world are you taking about? Zogby and the WSJ/ NBC? Wall Street Journal?
Stop this nonsense, you are relying phony polling information concocted by
Democrat operatives who are trying to give one false impression after the other
in order to tell us all that the Emperor has new clothes. This is a trainwreck
and can't ever be salvaged and as more people find out the ugly truth about
this law it's going to blow up in spectacular fashion. Quit jumping on the
bash Republican bandwagon, at least they tried to save us all from this disaster
that will go down in history as a total boondoggle from the worst President in
Samson, superior? My view is that personal anecdotal stories aren't a
valid way to inform yourself or others about the effectiveness of a national
health care system. "the care options I have here in the US far
surpass what was available to me there." I don't think it's
unreasonable to say that this statement "infers" you believe health care
options are superior in America. That said, given my view that anecdotes
aren't a valid way to inform yourself of an overall system It's not
unreasonable for me to express a thought that your view is not valid. I'll
concede ridiculous was overstated. Not valid would have been better.
Re:pragmatistferlifeThe inference was yours not mine. I am not
looking to one up anyone in terms of experiences. Those are your words.I have a point of view. One I feel is more valid than the one you
express. Does that surprise you? You would not have responded to me if you
didn't feel that your views were superior.I have long advocated
for a free-market solution to health care. The free market has made more
services and products available to the masses and has done more to eradicate
poverty than any other system ever devised by man.When I informed my
doctor that I wanted to go to a cash payment or barter system for services, he
informed me that because of contractual and legal obligations he would be unable
to continue as my doctor.While I agree in principle with your final
statement, I fear that the agenda is not as you state but rather the goal is to
get us to a single payer government run system. I am adamantly opposed to this.
I believe that the path we are on will not lead us to a regulated private free
Samson01, to make the inference that our system is superior because you
personally feel you had better treatment options here is ridiculous. I personally was treated by a physician here in Salt Lake three years for
asthma, when in fact I had an occluding Left Anterior Descending Artery which
resulted in what's referred to as the widow maker heart attack. Does my
experience trump your experience to say our system is crappy? No. Both
experiences are simply our own. The issue at hand is a medical
system that has become so expensive (partly because it is excellent care) that
everyone needs the help of someone else (employer or government) to have access
to it. Don't pretend that you could pay the costs yourself when a baby
costs $10,000 and a full chemo therapy procedure will cost millions.If you choose employer then you automatically exclude millions and create a
system that is used by all and paid for by some, unless the government steps in
and alters that paradigm. A private system with government
regulations to make it more of a all are covered and all pay system is far more
rational than what we had.
@Mountanman: "Checked your insurance deductibles and co-pays lately?"As a matter of fact I just received my annual enrollment, and yes they
went up just as they have annually for the last 25 years, nothing new! And I
also noticed that they were not as large as the last few years. I appreciate
you bringing to my attention!
This article was called "Tea party seems to prefer suicide to winning a
majority" in the printed paper. That title says it really well.
The democrats and the republicans are worried about garnering all the power and
control they can in the foreseeable future.The Tea Party is the only
group that actually cares about the future of the country. They should be called
patriots, heros, and the like, for giving their all to save the country.
TruthseekerLike everyone else, I chose to use the numbers that
represented my position the best, like everyone else. The facts show that none
of the three; House, Senate, or President have an approval rating over 50%.
It's not just the Republicans, America blames all three. "A
senior White House official told the Wall Street Journal that the administration
doesn't really care when the shutdown ends because they're
"winning" the PR fight against the GOP."And that makes
him just as bad as the tea party. The people of Louisiana last week
had their limits on their food stamp debit cards removed. Walmarts were stripped
of food in one day. People had seven-eight carts of food.Add this to the
AFA web site politics.
Re:VickieBI checked the polls on my own:WSJ/NBC:Obama approval
rating:47%Republican approval rating:24%Democrat approval
rating:39%Tea Party:21%Who is more to blame for the shutdown? 53%
RepublicansZogbyObama approval rating:45%Republican
approval rating:13%Democrat approval rating:24%"Our last Zogby
Poll in late September had the President’s job rating among independents
at 30%; today it is at 35%. "
atl134My numbers are correct. I hope people check them out on their
"It's not a matter of wanting it to fail. Rather the issue is knowing
that it is unsustainable under our current economy. We simply can't afford
it."And there is a perfect example of what is wrong with out
society. We can afford to pay unheard of amounts of money for professional
and college sports, but we can't afford to feed the poor. We can afford
over a 100 a month cable/Internet bills, but we can't help the old and
sick. We can afford homes that are multiples the size of homes we grew up in,
which were bigger then the previous generations family homes, and yet we
can't afford to help the homeless. "can't
afford" is kind of a relative term. We choose to value other things, it
has nothing to do with being able to afford it. We are the richest economy in
the world, and yet we can't afford to help others in their time of need.
It a choice - not a matter of ability. We choose not to help.... own up to the
Kathleen Parker, know this, the ACA is a train wreck happening. The already over
burdened taxpayers in this country are going to be hit with even more taxes by
virtue of this unconstitutional law. We, the people, should never be mandated to
do anything but stand up for this nation in her time of need. Many of U.S.
veterans are doing just that and Obama and his minions don't like it. This
nation is on the verge of a complete meltdown and many are still asleep at the
Parker is as clueless as her democrat pals. I'm proud of Cruz and Lee for
making a last ditch effort to stop obamacare. They will likely fail, but once
fully in place, obamacare will never be repealed, and we will be stuck with a
nationalized version of bleeding heart stupidity, that provides less healthcare
at a higher cost then today. It will only end when the whole government
collapses. Think of public education, it will be "dumbed down" for all
of us, and their will be very little excellence in it, and cost 2 or 3 times as
much. Just look at social security....it is the perfect example. A program that
could be so much more, with a little integrity and better plan, but no, it is a
typical government controlled disaster! Halfwit leftists and
moderates who spout this mantra about coming together and improving it with
ideas from both sides, are completely naïve and moronic. We cant come
together to solve any of our problems with budgets, healthcare, energy,
education...you name it! It needs to be repealed now at this stage!
"It won't be long before republicans try to take credit for
obamacare."(Five stars no less! - Ever wonder who trolls these
forums?)What a good laugh that line is!Half of you
leftist posters are trying to convince us that it was a Republican piece of
legislation and the other half think the Republicans are going to try to take
credit for this train wreck. This is rich!Both ideas
are patently false no matter how often they are repeated. I have been subject
to the health care system in both Italy and France and will say that the care
options I have here in the US far surpass what was available to me there. In
one case, a flight home was life-saving.Remember this readers, the
only bi-partisan part of the ACA was the opposition.Go Mike Lee!
It won't be long before republicans try to take credit for obamacare.
@The SolutionI can't agree enough, with your well deserved
condemnation, of the author, of this piece.Raphael Cruz is many
unsavory things and deserves our condemnation...but to compare him to one of the
Hall of Shame's lowest pieces of work...is beyond the pale.
Thank you Mike Lee and Ted Cruz. I would much rather be in a foxhole with them
than Harry Reid and BO. At least Mike and Ted would want me to keep my first
and second amendment rights. Harry Reid and BO would want me to give them up
with a patronizing nod that those rights weren't necessary with them
around! Just imagine it. A world without weapons, possessions, etc. I guess it
all comes down to who you trust, or does it? I think I'll take my chances,
retain my rights and do the same for others. whether Mike Lee, Ted Cruz, Harry
Reid, or Barack Obama, I'll do without any of them 'helping' me
thanks. I guess that's the difference between me and all of them who pick
sides here. That makes me the most unique of all and one of the few
'independent' minded people here. Come join the ranks. It's
liberating to say the least.
Are there any real men in this audience? The hidden whining that is ever
present with those who think that the government is the equivalent of Grampa
need to grow up. When are you ever going to accept some personal
responsibility? Grampa is only going to live so long and he is not an extension
of the money tree that Democrats and Republicans think exist in perpetuity.
Europe has tried the 'grampa' model of government hand outs.
It's not working! Unfortunately, those who like to take advantage of
grampa will wring every last cent out of him because they are
'entitled' to it. Health care is just the latest example of the
entitlement crowd wanting more from 'grampa'.
I can only hope that this little episode of extortion and brinkmanship will
finally deep-six the teaocracy. But irrational, myopic movements like this tend
to appeal to a fringe in society that is very stubborn when it comes to changing
its views. It may take an actual split in the GOP before the tea party dies. I
would prefer that someone form a new moderate party. Statistics show that the
majority of Americans (well over 50 percent) find themselves in the middle on
most significant issues. It's time we pushed the extremists on both ends
out of the boat and let them tread water for a while.
The Solution:You're right. It is shameful to compare Cruz to
bin Laden. Cruz will ultimately inflict far more damage on America than bin
Laden ever dreamed of.
@VickieBDemocrats' approval rating in the Gallup poll is at 43%.
It's Republicans that's at 29% in the Gallup poll and the 24% was
Republicans in an NBC/WSJ poll.
@The Solution"It's not a matter of wanting it to fail. Rather the
issue is knowing that it is unsustainable under our current economy."I can understand that. I mean, I disagree completely with the
assessment, but I understand why someone who thinks that way would want to
repeal it. What I don't understand is why someone who feels that way would
want to defund it because defunding it doesn't keep it from being law but
does do thinks like prevents the spending on the subsidies used to help people
by insurance, thus making it much more painful for the lower/middle class.
@The Solution;Tell me, do you actually have a solution? The system
we were operating under was completely unsustainable with insurance premiums
rising in the double digits every year.What is your
"solution", Mr. Solution? Please, at least offer up something to
Yes, way to go republicans. Now, if only you'd have gone about it in a
constructive manner instead of being so obstructionist.
As we all know, no plan is the best plan.Millions without insurance, more
than twice the healthcare costs of the next most expensive nation. These are the
best things to happen to America! Go republicans! Keep fighting for the status
@MountanmanThe only people who can defend Obamacare either already have a
highly prized Obamacare waiver or a nice fat taxpayer subsidy. The rest of us
must suffer. Still have a full time job? Checked your insurance deductibles and
co-pays lately?========================I possess neither, and
while it isn't perfect I still support it. Why? Because it is a step in
the right direction.Stereotyping and labeling people because they
disagree with you add nothing constructive to the conversation on how to improve
things, but only adds to the climate of tension and hostility that we are now
in. It's not part of the problem, it is the problem.To get a
waiver is simple, get your State to cover more people for less. It's
already provided for in the current law.
Ms. Parker is absolutely right on the destructiveness of the tea party
contingent. The tea party members completely fail to recognize that the ACA is
already a huge compromise with conservatives. Many on the left
(myself included) were in favor of an expansion of Medicare (which works quite
well for the elderly, allows for the purchase of supplemental insurance to go
beyond the minimum coverage provided by law, and has an incredibly low overhead
cost - something like 2%). This is the "single payer" option, that was
ruled out from the start because of the influence of the insurance companies.
(As always, money talks - loudly).Then the government option, in
which the government would offer a competing health insurance plan, was taken
off the table as well.What was passed has NO government coverage.
All coverage is through private insurance companies, with subsidies for the
poor. Yet this is derided as socialism. If socialism means that even the poor
have sufficient insurance so they can have medical care (outside of the
incredibly expensive emergency room), then count me in as a socialist. Of
course, all those tea party members on social security and medicare are
Mountanman said: "The only people who can defend Obamacare either already
have a highly prized Obamacare waiver or a nice fat taxpayer subsidy." I
have neither, so that's False "The rest of us must
suffer." who are you speaking for, Not me. Perhaps folks at Hayden Lake,
but that's not because of the ACA...is it?Still have a full
time job? Why yes I do. In fact I don't know anyone personally who has lost
one due to the ACA. Perhaps you know more unscrupulous employers than
myself."Checked your insurance deductibles and co-pays
lately?"Sure have, one of the smallest increases ever, thanks for
Interesting, I see most of the media attacking the Republicans. But America
dislikes both parties right now. A senior White House official told the Wall
Street Journal that the administration doesn't really care when the
shutdown ends because they're "winning" the PR fight against the
GOP. According to the WSJ, Obama has only a 37 approval rating. Forbes Zogby
poll says Obama has a 55% disapproval rating, Democrats have a 24% approval
rating. Gallop's poll shows Obama's approval rating at 43%. Plenty of
blame to go around. I wish both sides had passed the bill, after
reading it, and knew what was in it, before it went into effect. Giving business
a pass for a year, shows something is not right, let's hope they fix it. As
far as the site goes, it's incompetence. They should of been prepared for
the rush, or fixed it in a day or two. A competent business would of found a
way. It just makes me question things more.
The extremists have no conscience.
The only people who can defend Obamacare either already have a highly prized
Obamacare waiver or a nice fat taxpayer subsidy. The rest of us must suffer.
Still have a full time job? Checked your insurance deductibles and co-pays
Joe Blow,It's not a matter of wanting it to fail. Rather the
issue is knowing that it is unsustainable under our current economy. We simply
can't afford it. So to compensate, most of us have to accept poorer
quality insurance for much more expensive rates. It has already hit me and my
family as my company provided insurance was changed last year to accommodate.Ms. Parker,The Ted Cruz comparison to Osama Bin Laden is
shameful. That is very poor biased writing and is not news reporting at all.
The Tea Party is not on the edge of extinction and neither is the GOP. The only
thing that is changing is there will be more and more independents, like myself,
who are going to enter the picture.
I have said all along that the best thing that the republicans should have done
to hurt the Democratic Party would have been to give them everything they wanted
and watch the whole house come down. But, since anybody with a little common
sense and a heck of a lot less gullibility should know, that there is no
difference between the parties, the republican brand is still alive and
we'll, right next to their buddy, the democrats. Both will live to fight
another day, over nothing! thank you Senator Lee!
I'm convinced the House GOP are working in conspiracy with Obama --
distract the public on the bumpy implementation of ObamaCare with a silly
government shutdown. People are enraged about the loss of
government services during the shutdown (e.g., loss of National Parks access,
loss of federal gun permits during hunting season, etc.), and then Americans
come to respect what government (the collective will of the people) does for
society.ObamaCare implementation gets ironed out, people get their
healthcare and come to like ObamaCare, and the House switches to a Democrat
majority in 2014. In this turn of events, the GOP finally rid
themselves of the TEA Party and then take credit that ObamaCare was really based
on the successful RomneyCare in Massachusetts all along -- a GOP concept to
begin with and leverage its success for 2016! Go Romney in
Two things Ms Parker.Brand New websites that get bombarded often
"crash". Even with the tech giants.Maybe the ACA will be a train
wreck. Maybe not. But initial website crashes are not indicative.Ms Parker writes"rather than popping open the champagne as the
Obamacare website crashes in a glut of glitches"The ACA is law.
If it turns out bad, it will get canned or fixed. But, why not hope for the
best rather than advocate a celebration of failure?Do you want the
ACA to fail so we can return to a failing system. Brilliant.That is
the problem in todays hyper partisan environment. R and D want each other to
fail. They want the others ideas to fail.At times, that means
rooting against America.And it happens quite often.How
about we wish for GREAT ideas from either party that would be good for America?