And it continues... I don't care if we are talking about Government
Workers, Welfare Recipients, Food Stamp Recipients or whatever ... If they are
receiving pay or benefits from tax money and there are more people receiving
than paying then that is a recipe for significant financial trouble... I am not
suggesting that those who work in Government Related jobs or receive publicly
paid benefits are not deserving, I am simply saying that if there are more of
them than those who are paying for them then there is a strong probability that
we can't afford it and Revisions need to be made. Policemen,
Firemen, or Teachers are honorable positions... You're the one that is
attempting to spin my comments to make it look like that is what I am
implying... I'm NOT.... In fact I am not even saying that people receiving
welfare, food stamps or whatever benefits is not honorable even though you imply
that I am... I am simply saying... and please read my words
carefully... We can't afford the debt load... Let me say it
differently, we have to stop spending money we don't have... Adjustments
have got to be made...
poyman, what spin? I said you were wrong, I provided sources that show you were
wrong, I provided a quote from the author of the original study saying you are
wrong, and you admit you are wrong: "it is true that stating more people are
on welfare than are working is inaccurate. . . ". Spin? What more could you
want? I also stated that Baldwin's study is seriously flawed.
It is. He is comparing people working in the private sector against people on
Medicare and those working in public sector jobs, (the fact he has to combine
these groups to get the results he wants show hos flawed the study is) and he is
trying to draw conclusions about the fiscal health of a state based on this.
Yes, his study is flawed. He also states that those in the private sector are
"gainfully employed", as opposed to those in the public sector. In other
words, he is making the claim that cops, firefighters, teachers, and other
government workers are a drain on society, never realizing that without these
people there would not be a functioning private sector in which to be gainfully
I reread my previous post and it looks like I got a little sloppy at the end...
In my defense, it was late...What I meant to say is that
Obama's Administration has taken debt from $10 Trillion to $17 Trillion in
just under 5 years during a time of relative peace... "W" took the debt
from about $5 Trillion to $10 Trillion with two wars and had to put the military
back together again after Clinton reduced Defense Spending by the largest amount
of dollars and budget percentages than any other country in recoreded
history...Obama is showing Budget shortfalls of over a Trillion a
year which is an overspend rate of about 5% of America's total GDP every
year. America's current GDP is about $22 Trillion... And, with our current
debt reaching $17 Trillion and on course to be between $20 Trillion and $22
Trillion by the time that Obama leaves office this country's debt load will
have gone from about 45% of GDP to 95% of GDP in 8 short years... The interest
to serve that debt will be between $1.2 and $1.5 Trillion or roughly 6% of this
country's total annual revenue...
@markYou act like my statement regarding the 11 states is totally
off base... It's not...Your "spin" makes it sound like
there is no merrit... It is true that the accusations originated from a Forbes
article written by Baldwin, and it is true that stating more people are on
welfare than are working is inaccurate... But the real truth is not too far away
from that...Baldwin actually says that there are more people using
or dependent on the tax dollar in those 11 states than there are people with
jobs... He goes on to say that if you have to move to one of these states,
don't buy a house, rent instead, because these states are financially
circling the drain... In fact, there is a nice pretty chart that lays out this
information in some detail.So while some correction maybe
appropriate, your spin is not. People need to look at the article
and the dialog with Baldwin themselves. Then draw their own conclusions...Whether more people are drawing welfare than actual people working, or
more people receiving benefits and wages (including welfare) from tax dollars
makes little difference to me.It's still money.
Mr. Swallow may want to think that the Federal government has somehow exonerated
him, but they did not. All that they determined was that his actions
hadn't violated any Federal laws. It says nothing at all about State laws,
Bar Association rules and ethical opinions, or whether he is simply using his
office for personal benefit. Our prisons are full of people who would have been
cleared by a Federal investigation for the simple reason that the crimes they
committed were violations of Utah statutes and didn't infringe upon Federal
laws. When this is all over, Swallow will likely fall into that category as
"The 11 states that I spoke of where there are now more people collecting
welfare related benefits that people actually having jobs and paying taxes are
as follows:"Poyman, this claim isn't true, I don't
care what that chain email told you. It would only take ten seconds to look up
the actual information on the Internet. Here, since you are having trouble
finding reliable information I'll help you:"Chain email
says 11 states have more people on welfare then employed", politifact,
(rated pants on fire, as in liar, liar, pants on fire) "Death
Spiral States?" Factcheck (Q: Do 11 states now have more people on welfare
than they have employed?A: A viral email making this claim is off
base.)"Spike That Email About Welfare And Work; Fact Checkers
Say It's Not True", NPR, Mark MemmotIn fact William
Baldwin, the person that did the original "study", the email is based on
says this according to NPR, "what he reported and what the email says
'are not the same thing at all. . . "And, as far as that
goes Baldwins "study" is seriously flawed, at least in the conclusions
Shane, you, nor Coulter, aren't informed on this issue. First of all
nothing in any continuing resolution says that Congress is exempt from the ACA.
And nothing says "the only reason the government is shut down right now is
that Democrats refuse to fund the government if they are required to live under
Obamacare." As Coulter claims.Perhaps you need to educate
yourself to the mythical congressional exemption. Coulter never will, she is a
partisan with no concern for the truth.
I love the question about Mike Lee. How about a question asking if Democrats
should compromise? Just the question itself shows political bias. Secondly, Mike
Lee is doing what he was sent there to do, change things. We had years and years
of "compromising" with Bob Bennett and look where its gotten us. Come on
people wake up. The Democrats have NO interest in compromising so why should we?
@utahbluedevil... this unfortunately is the fastest that I could get back to my
comment... Now I am guessing that you probably won't see my response and
that's too bad...The 11 states that I spoke of where there are
now more people collecting welfare related benefits that people actually having
jobs and paying taxes are as follows:California, New York, Illinois, Ohio, Maine, Kentucky, South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama, New Mexico and Hawaii. It
takes 10 seconds to look it up on the internet... If you have trouble, let me
know and I will give you the URL.When I focused on debt I was
talking about the runaway spending that Obama and this Administration are
engaged in... It's unmatched in our 235 years of existence during times of
peace... Even with two wars, Bush managed to see debt increase a total of $5T...
Without wars Obama and his minions have already spent $7T through 5 years (more
than a trillion a year)promising to add $10T to the debt in his two terms (a
total debt of $22T)... A record that I doubt will ever be broken. BTW, our
annuall GDI is only $22T...
mark,It was part of the Continuing Resolution submitted Sept. 30.
Apparently Ann Coulter and I were the informed people in this case.
What's to negotiate about opening up the government? They congress could
vote on it and open it up. Most of them want to, but GOP do not want to open it
up without concessions. Sounds like a hostage situation to me and the few
extremists in America and Utah apparently support that. If the president is one
extreme the GOP Tea Party are the other - neither in a good way.
What about Barry, Harry and Nancy?Shouldn't they also
compromise? Why is it always a one-side compromise. That isn't a
compromise, that is a capitulation. Mike won't capitulate. Compromise
means giving up something for something else.
" Keep in mind that the most recent compromise submitted by the Republicans
is for EVERYONE to be subject to Obamacare. How many of you know that
politicians and their staff got an exemption from Obamacare? Mike Lee and other
Republicans are just requesting that the Democrat politicians accept
participation in Obamacare just like the rest of us.""the
only reason the government is shut down right now is that Democrats refuse to
fund the government if they are required to live under Obamacare."Shane, Ann Coulter has a history of being exceptionally uninformed. Why would
you want to be?
I'll quote Ann Coulter, since she summarized it so well."the only reason the government is shut down right now is that Democrats
refuse to fund the government if they are required to live under
Obamacare."Consider that for a moment, and then ask yourself why
any rational person would blame Sen. Lee for that?
The irony here is that many of those who now criticize Sen. Lee will be praising
him later once the full impact of Obamacare is felt. In the long run Lee will
be revered for doing all he could to stop Obamacare.And neither Sen.
Lee nor the GOP as a whole are responsible for the shutdown. Keep in mind that
the most recent compromise submitted by the Republicans is for EVERYONE to be
subject to Obamacare. How many of you know that politicians and their staff got
an exemption from Obamacare? Mike Lee and other Republicans are just requesting
that the Democrat politicians accept participation in Obamacare just like the
rest of us.So really, it is the Democrats who are holding the
Federal Budget hostage to protect themselves from having to participate in
Obamacare. Not the Republicans holding anybody nor anything hostage.
The public lost confidence in John Swallow quite a while ago. It is not new news
that a solid majority feels he should resign. It's because of his personal
pride that he won't do what's right for his party and for the state of
Utah. That becomes totally obvious as he allows this $3 million investigation to
proceed, rather than resign and allow that taxpayer money to go much better use
in this very tight economy. Even if he stays, he can never render
enough service to pay back the $3 million he is costing taxpayers by staying. On
top of that, he will never be effective as the state's attorney general
since the vast majority of citizens simply don't trust him... and never
will. His unethical conduct... legal or not... is already proven and
established... something that will stay with him regardless of the outcome of
the investigation. John, please do yourself a favor and listen to
your constituents for once. Please resign now... ASAP.
@ Doug 10:You are right in saying that Mitt said he would keep part
of the healthcare program... but ONLY part. Please don't forget that the
majority of the country currently does NOT want Obamacare as it currently is.
Republicans have now backed off and offered a very reasonable compromise. They
are no longer holding the country hostage. It is now the president and Democrats
who have stated outright that they will not compromise. Therefore it is they who
are now holding the country hostage.Republicans have offered to
fully fund Obamacare if the president will simply give the general public the
same option Obama has already given to his personal special interest groups...
to have the option of waiting a year to sign up while the most obvious bugs in
Obamacare get addressed and corrected. Totally reasonable. And people who want
to sign up right away still have that option as well. When looked at
the updated situation objectively, it's undoubtedly the Democrats who are
now the ones throwing a tantrum and saying that have to have EVERYTHING their
own way or they are taking their ball and going home. Ridiculous!
I wonder how high the unemployment rate would be in this country, if all
pollsters were laid off.
@MapleDonI literally laughed out loud when you called Doug Wright a
"radical". Almost everyone who knows ANYTHING about Doug Wright
(including Doug Wright himself) would categorize him as generally a
moderate-conservative.The problem with obsession with ideological
purity is that the circle of people whow qualify (the "non-RINOs", in
this case) becomes ever-smaller as people eventually succumb to fear, greed,
pragmatism, compassion, higher priorities, and a myriad of other things that end
up being dissonant with the ideology, until the extreme logical conclusion is
reached, where everyone else is viewed as corrupt, and the only
"right-thinking" person left is "you". Sen. Mike Lee is on this
path (as are several others, in and out of Congress).On the other
hand, I don't think this is AG John Swallow's problem. His fatal flaw
is hubris; specifically, that belonging to the state's supermajority party
somehow endows him with an intrinsic moral superiority and allows him to act
with impunity and play fast and loose with laws and ethics in his pursuit of
The Polling people forgot to call me.
I thought that Utah was going to be an exemplar state, where leaders set
examples.I guess they are.Mr. Lee your right to hold the
country hostage is over. That ended when the people re-elected Pres Obama. It
is now law. Even Mitt said he would keep part of the healthcare program had he
been elected.Your shennanigans have splintered the party you are a
member of making them nearly unelectable in the next election.Mr.
Lee you are not a Republican and I wish that you would identify yourself as an
independent and run on that ticket. With a party split they will continue to
suffer at the hands of the system. Were you able to see beyond your personal
issues you could do much more for those who elected you by changing the rules
within the affordable care act even though that might get you as many
headlines.Mr. Swallow you can justify things in your own mind but as
your job is the highest ethical legal person in Utah demands your personal life
be inline with that mandate and yours has not been.You are a person
in a glass house...and a stone thrower
It's interesting that DesNews comes out with this story on the very day
Pres Obama's job approval number hits its all-time low of 37%. (For
comparison, George Bush's low was 36%...and you in the media went crazy
over that, unlike today). Why isn't that a bigger story? (Duh, we know.)Further, have you considered taking a poll of the people to find out
their view as to whether the Senate Democrats should compromise? (I'll
answer for you. No.)Better yet, have you asked the public whether
they believe the President should compromise, specially after he said (and you
kept VERY quiet) on Tuesday that he would NOT negotiate (compromise)? (Again
I'll answer for you. No.)Just like the rest of the media (and
your buddy, Doug Wright @ KSL), you've shown your hand. Your view is that
compromise is a duty and obligation of the Republicans, not the Democrats.
@Utah_1,Your comment is totally irrelevant to this discussion. Why
bring up the caucus system debate here? I'll be glad to debate the merits
(or, more accurately, the lack of merits) of the caucus system with you, but
this thread is about how Utahns view Mike Lee and John Swallow, not about
whether or not the caucus system should be maintained.
Tea Party = Anarchists in Patriot's Clothing.For them America
is some 200 year old myth that never existed in real life, not the America of
John Kennedy and Ronald Regan.America has worked because we cared
about each other, not because we were perfect people neither perfect idealogues.
Senator lee failed nod should resign.
DNS2 and Patriot: Both of you are absolutely correct. It is Mike Lee and
conservatives who have compromised and come to the bargaining table. Obama is
the one who will not and states publicly that he will not compromise. He will
talk to Iran but not the Republicans. The DN, BYU, and the media do not pay
attention. John Swallow is also a victim of the liberal media who
loved to lick its chops and go after a story line. Baloney. This is a good man
who will be cleared. Guilty until proven innocent should not be the way we have
justice in this great country.
Whoever is advising Mike Lee should be fired too. He can't be this clueless
by all by himself.
Potman.... where do you get your facts. This country was in debt before we had
a constitution.... and has been in debt, increasing that debt year over year for
over 200 years. And then factoids like your 11 state comment... by the
numbers, that isn't all that hard to see. If on average the work force is
just a little more than 50 percent of people, it is not hard to see how through
medicare, WIC, educational funding, unemployment, disabilities, and low wage
jobs that are below the poverty level.... that in the aggregate there are more
receiving benefits.I don't say this to pick a fight with you,
only that history has been distorted. We have this overly rosie view of the
past. For example, compared to the great depression, all the KPis and measures
don't even come close to the state of the government at that time.No doubt - debt needs to be reigned in. Governments delivery of services
needs to be more efficient. But lets not distort the past or not put it in
Mike Lee is doing a fantastic job in Washington. I'm proud of him.
Unfortunately, the progressives and leftists who control the media not only
nationally but also locally hate the guy. The most vocal critic of Mike Lee in
this state is Doug Wright (KSL), who spends nearly every day ripping into him.
All of these people (radicals as far as I'm concerned) exert their
influence to shape public opinion.Why the hatred? Because
they're threatened. They're scared. Anyone with a will to voice
opposition to the progressive government takeover of our lives is a threat.
This poll doesn't confirm my personal pre-conceived bias which is dutifully
confirmed daily by fox news, right-wing radio personalities, right-wing blogs,
right-wing chain e-mails, drudge, ect., ect, so it must be wrong.right?
Doesn't pass the smell test... Sorry.I don't believe that
56% of Utah Voters believe that it is okay to keep spending money that we
don't have... This community of all communities believes that
we have to live within our means and I simply don't believe that
Utahn's say it's okay to keep spending money and pass the bill on to
future Taxpayers... Are parents didn't do it to us and they went through
some real hard times (Depression, WWII, etc.) Whether we are talking about
Obamacare, welfare, food stamps, whatever... You can't spend what you
don't have regardless of how noble the cause... it's not fair or
right... I haven't seen the questionaire but based on these
results I would say that there is something wrong with it...This
Country has always been fiscally conservative... To all of a sudden say that
Utahn's don't care about how deep we get in debt simply doesn't
make sense... Today there are 11 states who have fewer working people paying
taxes than they have people receiving taxpayer funded benefits... That's a
recipe for financial disaster.
Senator Lee did compromise. For heaven sake where have you been D-NEWS? It is
Barack that won't compromise.
"and your children will be much less well off than their parents.'This line always cracks me up, because the same crowd could care less
about leaving the planet in great shape.... just their wallets......
but here you have it, another survey from the left leaning BYU supporting the
media mainstream again in brain washing us all to their socialist ploy to take
over America and deliver it to the muslims..... ( I hope you all understand just
how tongue in cheek that was).Poll after poll like this continue to
show that neither extreme represents the majority of what Americans think nor
believe. Most Americans want world leading national defense, world class
leading services from our government, done with the core value that the
government is spending our money - and needs to do so wisely. The other stuff
is just noise from those who would try to divide in order to gain more power and
influence.We are all far less apart then the wedge issues being used
Subscriber 2"A federal investigation already cleared him" So
you trust the federal government now. Does not sound like a "Mike Lee kind
of a guy". By the way My children are already suffering economically
relative to what I experienced. I owe it to them to provide some form of
affordable health care.....don't you?
@DN Subscriber 2SLC, UTPolls like this are nothing but a pop
quiz to see if the media narrative is successful in twisting the views of people
who really don't pay much attention, or know the details.========= I'm a Vietnam War era alumnus.I'll
take the OpenMinded opinions of University and College students over FoxNews fed
folks anyday.Just like the Communist media fed students in Tiananmen
Square in 1989.
Polls like this are nothing but a pop quiz to see if the media narrative is
successful in twisting the views of people who really don't pay much
attention, or know the details.Mike Lee is one of the five best
Senators in Washington today, and doing heroic work trying to save this country
from destruction. Even working for those who do not realize how bad things will
be if Obama fully implements his healthcare scheme, and borrows a few more
trillion dollars to give away. You WILL be getting the bill in your future
taxes, and your children will be much less well off than their parents.John Swallow is a solid conservative, and therefore a popular target for a
number of groups, and they all piled on after some bogus charges made by a
convicted felon. A federal investigation already cleared him, and the remaining
investigations are ones started so other politicos could claim they are
"doing something" while avoiding defending him or citing non-existent
hurray for mike lee for standing up for what is right and for what he believes.
maybe we should find out all the information on john swallow before we convict
him and kick him out i thought it was only with the irs that you were guilty
first then you had to prove your innoconce
Tea party havoc.
Hard to say, as between these two, who is more culpable. And that's a sad
comment on both.
Swallow really should go,Senator Lee. We voted for you because we
need you would not lay down on the job. Stand tall. But, never
forget that you work for me and all my buddies in America.The People
are in charge.You all need to get out of our way when we want to go
visit the Grand Canyon or Zion. Those are our parks.Power to the
to O M M...Sadly, neither will occur.
Wow!So it's NOT just me.Mike Lee and John Swallow
can't even get passing opinions from BYU.That should say