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Study: Children in same-sex families less apt to graduate than in mom-dad intact families

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  • Meg30 Providence, UT
    Oct. 14, 2013 6:16 a.m.

    Okay don't rip my head off, but I was just wondering if there IS a link, could part of it be that they are more likely to be raised with an anti-establishment mentality?

  • postaledith Freeland, WA
    Oct. 10, 2013 4:22 p.m.

    Another story where people jump on the bandwagon and scream foul. The facts are there are a lot of same-sex couples who are raising children in a loving, nurturing home and the kids thrive and grow to be upstanding adults.

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Oct. 10, 2013 1:31 p.m.

    @Christopher B --

    "We shouldn't be surprised that when people do the opposite of what nature has said is best we don't have the best results"

    You know, I actually kind of agree with you there.

    But consider this:

    Many non-human species practice homosexual behaviors. For example -- in bonobo chimps, over half of all sexual activity is between females. In giraffes, 90% of all sexual activity is between males. In black swans, 1/4 of all swan pairs are males. And there are many many more examples, which I won't list here.

    So, it's easy to see that homosexual activity in humans is very much in line with nature. It's easy to find in nature -- therefore it's natural.

    In stark contrast, NO non-human species have religion.

    Not a single one.

    Soooo......in reality, homosexual behavior is natural.

    But religion is not.

    Hmmmm.

    What's that you were saying about "doing the opposite of what nature has said"??

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 12:54 p.m.

    We shouldn't be surprised that when people do the opposite of what nature has said is best we don't have the best results

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Oct. 10, 2013 12:20 p.m.

    @RBB --

    ""Science" is not allowed if it does not fit the narrative. "

    Well-researched science should always be allowed, no matter what narrative it does or does not fit. Poorly-researched pseudo-science masquerading as real science should be criticized, deconstructed, picked apart, and laughed at -- as it deserves to be.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 12:10 p.m.

    Miss Piggie says:

    "The problem is not the gender of the couples... the problem is, children raised in homosexual homes are largely shunned and subtly discriminated against by peers and at school by almost anyone who becomes aware of their home-life situation. This negatively affects children's opinion of themselves, hence their drive to succeed. To heterosexuals, homosexuality is disgusting. This perception carries over to kids."

    ---

    What you're saying is that bigotry is bad. Why then, do you insist on perpetuating it? Just a note, if you pronounce bigoted views in front of your kids, they're going to pick up those same views.

    @PLM;

    Prove it.

  • Wonder Provo, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 11:35 a.m.

    RBB -- And when you read another study that shows something that doesn't fit your narrative, keep your comment in mind.

  • RBB Sandy, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 10:56 a.m.

    Stop it. "Science" is not allowed if it does not fit the narrative. Now repeat after me - "Same sex couples are just as good as a mom and dad and anyone who disagrees is a bigot."

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 9:08 a.m.

    "I was around the little boy on many occasions and his demeanor was always the same."

    PLM, maybe the kid just didn't like you. It sure seems like you didn't like the kid

    "I have studied psychology and human nature . . ."

    Well if that's true (I wonder what your definition of studied is) you would know that observation of just one person cannot be broadly applied. And also that children have many different personalities for many different reasons.

    "Family established by God, proved by nature. No second guesses, no court or law to the contrary can prevail or exceed God's plan for the happiness of his children. I have lived it and know it is true"

    Or so you believe.

    - "You are correct, no-fault divorce should be outlawed."

    Luke, I'm going to take a guess that you are conservative. So I gotta ask, why is it that conservatives, for all their talk about small government, seem to want to our government right where it is most obtrusive for people? You guys want to shove it right in the middle of the bedroom, the doctors office, and relationships.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Oct. 10, 2013 8:55 a.m.

    @PLM --

    "know that children have the best opportunity for success and are in the optimal environment when raised by both of their loving heterosexual married parents."

    Wow. Really? You really know better than all the professional child development experts in the US? I'm impressed. Where did you get your degrees? Where did you get your daily professional experience with child development?

    The truth is that every reputable group of child development experts in this country SUPPORT gay marriage. They recognize that children grow up just fine in gay-led homes.

    Supporting groups include:

    American Academy of Pediatrics
    American Academy of Family Practitioners
    Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
    American Psychological Association
    American Psychiatric Association
    National Association of Social Workers

    From AAP's position statement: "There is an emerging consensus, based on extensive review of the scientific literature, that children growing up in households headed by gay men or lesbians are not disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents" and “Marriage strengthens families and benefits child development".

    The "study" discussed in this article is garbage, for reasons many of us have mentioned already. And like garbage, it should be dumped.

  • PLM Kaysville, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 11:31 p.m.

    @Sunset
    I was around the little boy on many occasions and his demeanor was always the same. I am a parent of seven, grew up in a single parent household and know how difficult that is for all involved. I am in a subsequent marriage and know the challenges that occur there. I have studied psychology and human nature and know that children have the best opportunity for success and are in the optimal environment when raised by both of their loving heterosexual married parents. I hope you are not suggesting that the role of a mother is not important and that two men can provide what a loving mother does for her child. Or that women can take the place of an involved father. Here is the equation: good mother + good father = best outcome for the child. No substitutes. No apologies. Family established by God, proved by nature. No second guesses, no court or law to the contrary can prevail or exceed God's plan for the happiness of his children. I have lived it and know it is true.

  • PLM Kaysville, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 10:53 p.m.

    Intact heterosexual married couples provide the best opportunity for a child's successful and happy outcome. Period.

  • Fullypresent Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 10:48 p.m.

    It seems there is a lot of information we do not know. Is their findings because of a lack of acceptance outside of their own homes? are any of these children from overseas orphanages or from foster care and have problems that might have prevented them from graduating? Are there other factors besides it being a very small study that might be at play we know nothing about. It is not as simple as having 2 gay parents. If you work in education you know that there are many kids from two parent families who choose not to graduate for a variety of reasons and children from single parent homes that choose not to. Some may be failings of the education system as well. It is a complicated problem that is not as simple as the sexual orientation of their parents.

  • Kevin J. Kirkham Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 10:45 p.m.

    I think we are not seeing the big picture. The reason the study was done and why it was published here is to justify opposing SSM. The problem though is that it doesn't matter whether the study is right or wrong, flawed or not...It is simply a distraction.

    As someone pointed out, perhaps we should outlaw certain ethnic groups from marrying since their kids are far less likely to graduate than kids of white couples. We could outlaw drug addicts, child molesters, etc... from marrying since their influence is harmful to any kids that they would produce. Yet we still allow such to marry. This shows that we are NOT fighting to limit marriage to only those people who would likely raise well adjusted kids. We are only trying to withhold it from a certain group and are trying to justify our animus toward them.

    This is just a distraction. Withholding marriage from gays while permitting drug addicts, child molesters, etc..shows the hypocrisy of those who will use this study to claim that their motives are pure...that they're just wanting what's best for the kids...Horse feathers.

  • Luke Nelson West Valley City, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 7:30 p.m.

    @Happy Valley Heretic

    You are correct, no-fault divorce should be outlawed.

  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 6:37 p.m.

    Abby Normal isn't the character I would want for a parent. I wonder what my kids think about me.

  • PLM Kaysville, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 6:36 p.m.

    @GZE

    My comment was correct, no thank you for your suggestion.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 5:27 p.m.

    @Miss piggy

    "Never happen... simply because it first would necessitate acceptance of the aberrant conduct of the 'parents."

    So I are you advocating the shunning of innocent children for what some view to be the sins of their parents or just pointing out the weakness within the minds of and broken moral compass of those that do so?

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 4:20 p.m.

    Chris B "I can't say this is surprising. It's obvious that the best environment for a child is a mom and dad together and married. Nothing else is an equal substitute."

    I wondered what happened to Mr. butters after retirement, I see he still has a great hatred of all things gay.

    Perhaps divorce should be legislated against since this affects far more children than gay marriages ever will, but of course this really isn't about the children. It's about religion, and the selective use of a few scriptures, cherry picking the bible so that God agrees with you on one thing while ignoring the many, many scriptures against divorce.

  • Miss Piggie Phoenix, AZ
    Oct. 9, 2013 3:17 p.m.

    @Maudine:
    "Miss Piggie: Your argument seems to be that some people oppose same-sex unions and will bully children based on who their parents are."

    Wrong... not bullied per se... Shunned. And not dealt with in other subtle ways i.e., invited over after school to play with dolls, etc., like kids in 'normal' marriages.


    "Don't you think the proper solution to that problem is teaching compassion towards those who are different than you and letting kids know that bullying is never okay?"

    Never happen... simply because it first would necessitate acceptance of the aberrant conduct of the 'parents.'

  • Bob K porland, OR
    Oct. 9, 2013 3:00 p.m.

    I think I need reminding that the Deseret News is owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, and not by Rupert Murdock.

    Besides the fact that we are dealing with dubious sources (I think Regnerus is the less credible than any other poller), it just seems than some folks at DN earn their living by dredging up crud that pleases the most conservative (or backward) readers. I mean, do we really need to reference a country with fewer people than California, when we have so much information on American families?

    I was going to answer it point by point, but it is too ridiculous. It seems perhaps to be a sneaky way of insisting on male-female married families as the only way, when every other study says that on average, 2 women raise better-educated kids than man-woman couples.

    However, the article shows another reason for same sex marriage -- stability and fidelity in the home are good for kids.

  • Maudine SLC, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 2:28 p.m.

    @ Chris B: The reason marriage is so important and why so many same-sex couples want it is because it does create a stability that improves the outcome for the couple and their children. So, yes - the existence of a marriage certificate does make a difference.

    @ Miss Piggie: Your argument seems to be that some people oppose same-sex unions and will bully children based on who their parents are. Don't you think the proper solution to that problem is teaching compassion towards those who are different than you and letting kids know that bullying is never okay?

  • A Guy With A Brain Enid, OK
    Oct. 9, 2013 2:20 p.m.

    Article title, quote: "Study: Children in same-sex families less apt to graduate than in mom-dad intact families"

    What?

    How can THAT be???...

    The pro-homosexual community 'knows' that there are NO harmful effects of being raised by a dad and a dad or a mom and a mom.

    (sarcasm "Off")

  • Badgerbadger Murray, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 1:58 p.m.

    "I can't measure what having a Mom (female) and a Dad (male) did to help me become a functioning member of society. Having both may not be a pre-requisite but it sure was a huge advantage."

    Actually having a parent of each gender is a pre-requisite. No one gets born to same sex parents. God made it that way, for good reason.

    Those who disagree with God, and the study, first say the study is flawed/untrue, but then say that the failures of kids raised by same sex parents are society's fault. Not convincing arguments, either one alone, but together they sound like cheap excuses.

  • Sunset Orem, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 1:42 p.m.

    @ PLM

    Attributing the so-called "unhappiness" of the toddler to his conception seems particularly absurd. Lots of healthy, happy kids have unconventional origins. Many are adopted. Others are born thanks to advances in medicine because their biological parents have fertility issues. They grow up fine.

    Furthermore, how do you even know the child was truly unhappy? Do you have children? They aren't always nice or pleasant. They can be quite cranky sometimes! They throw tantrums! Maybe you caught the child before his nap? Kids also have different personalities. Not every child is going to be a social butterfly. When my niece screams bloody murder because she doesn't get her way, should I proceed to condemn her straight parents? No child is happy all the time!

    It is unfortunate that the lesbian couple broke up. The dissolution of any family or relationship can be traumatic. However, it's unfair for you to then take the leap that this one case proves that all gay relationships are inferior. Over half of all marriages fail (over 70% of subsequent marriages fail). These stats apply to straight couples. By your logic, the rampage of divorce should make us condemn all straight marriages.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Oct. 9, 2013 1:32 p.m.

    @USU Aggie --

    "well look at Canada, they've been allowing same sex marriage for years and they're doing just fine."

    Yup. Canada was and is doing just fine.

    "And now that Canada has come out...these same posters are saying boloney. "

    1. "Canada" has NOT come out with a study. This study was done by ONE Canadian, who is on the board of the Ruth Institute of the National Organization for Marriage, and who used biased data from a several-year-old Canadian census.

    2. And yup, the study is baloney. That's why we're saying baloney. ;-)

    "So if they speak on the issue and voice concern, we need to listen and learn."

    Ahhhh, but "they" did NOT voice concern. The person who did speak is actually someone who has a vested interest in cherry-picking data to support his preconceived prejudices. IOW, he is fatally biased, and his "study" is fatally flawed.

    Incidentally -- this "researcher", Doug Allen, has previously stated that lesbian relationships are unstable, unhealthy, and promiscuous and that the marriage of gay couples will somehow lead to an increase in heterosexual divorces. Not a real objective observer, there.

  • redshirt007 tranquility base, 00
    Oct. 9, 2013 1:25 p.m.

    One study shows that kids are less likely to graduate High School and another says that same gender couple give just as much support to children as opposite sex couples.

    So the effect is OUTSIDE the home. So did anyone actually ask the kids why?

    If you are being bullied or even shunned in High School the easiest thing to do is get your GED and move on isn't it? Yep.

    So this IS actually biased in that it only counts graduation rates and not the EDUCATION of the children without any observations as to why it happens. Show me a study that the children are learning less or have actual harmful outcomes. Then we can still mind our own beeswax.

  • Miss Piggie Phoenix, AZ
    Oct. 9, 2013 1:02 p.m.

    @Chris B:
    "What would a marriage certificate from the govt have anything to do with a couples ability to raise their children with sufficient upbringing to have them graduate?"

    Let me help you...

    The problem is not the gender of the couples... the problem is, children raised in homosexual homes are largely shunned and subtly discriminated against by peers and at school by almost anyone who becomes aware of their home-life situation. This negatively affects children's opinion of themselves, hence their drive to succeed. To heterosexuals, homosexuality is disgusting. This perception carries over to kids.

    Unfortunately, this situation will never change because homosexual arrangements will always be in the minority and looked down upon as an aberration to normal family life, even if eventually legalized.

  • USU AGGIE FAN Logan, Utah
    Oct. 9, 2013 12:54 p.m.

    Very interesting....

    A few months ago a lot of the same posters that are on here commenting were saying "well look at Canada, they've been allowing same sex marriage for years and they're doing just fine." And now that Canada has come out with a study saying kids from same sex marriage homes aren't doing so well, these same posters are saying boloney.

    Technically speaking the Canadians are the experts when it comes to same sex marriage, they've been allowing it since 2005. That's longer than any state that allows same sex marriage here in the USA. So if they speak on the issue and voice concern, we need to listen and learn.

  • OHBU Columbus, OH
    Oct. 9, 2013 12:26 p.m.

    RedWings,

    Whether or not we are becoming less moral is very much up for debate. Over time, we have decided that non-white people should be granted the full rights of being a human being. Women are no longer forced to live in abusive marriages due to police departments that wouldn't investigate, a lack of employment options, and the very real probability they would lose their children if they left. There are numerous examples like this. At best, society is progressing toward a more equitable and less dogmatic reality. At worst, we're trading one set of bad morals for another.

    I also love that you use the Romans as an example. Nero was emperor long before the fall of the Roman empire. Or perhaps you meant that by accepting Christianity the Roman empire lost its moral compass and slid toward anarchy?

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 12:26 p.m.

    @RedWings
    "What is obvious is a general decline in society each generation. "

    That's not obvious at all. Violent crime is down. Jim Crow is gone. More women are being educated than ever before. There's less wars in the world than ever before. There's less slavery in the world than ever before.

  • MoJules Florissant, MO
    Oct. 9, 2013 12:14 p.m.

    My husband died when my daughter was 11, you don't think that affected her? In raising her child, she tells me that there are things that her husband brings to the table, that I totally lacked as a female. And my daughter is pro gay marriage and very liberal, but she can see from her own upbringing as compared to her daughters what was lacking.

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 11:52 a.m.

    Every study about gay marriage and homosexuality is biased - It is simply too much of a political issue for anyone to want the truth. Each study is set up so that the researchers get the results they want. we will probably never get good, scientific research on this issue because of this.

    What is obvious is a general decline in society each generation. As we become a less moral society, we lose our place in the world. It happened to Rome, Greece, and Europe, and it is happening to us. I am not speaking of homosexuality as being the main cause. It is a by-product, just as it was in the Roman bath houses. We are turning from the hard work and morals that built our society, and we will reap the destruction from it. History is a hard but truthful schoolmaster.....

  • GZE SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 11:49 a.m.

    PLM says, Intact heterosexual married couples provide the best opportunity for a child's successful and happy outcome.

    Let me fix that for you: Intact COMMITTED couples provide the best opportunity for a child's successful and happy outcome.

    You're welcome.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Oct. 9, 2013 10:53 a.m.

    Oh fer heaven's sake.

    The very first sentence of the article tells us that this study has the same flaw as Regnerus' laugh-fest did.

    "A new Canadian study based on that country's census says children in households headed by same-sex couples are less apt to graduate than those in married, opposite-sex households."

    Notice that they compared ALL same-sex households to MARRIED opposite-sex households. IOW, they compared a group with many UNSTABLE households against a group with STABLE households.

    Once again, they measured the difference between stability and instability -- NOT the difference between opposite-sex parents and same-sex parents.

    And they got predictable results.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 10:52 a.m.

    *shrugs* Should we start restricting marriage to other demographics (race, religion) based on averages? Some parents are going to do a good job, others aren't. That applies to all demographics. Using these kinds of stats to target particular groups ignores individual efforts and is stereotyping at best, bigotry at worst.

  • Maudine SLC, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 10:46 a.m.

    "The study found that "Regardless of the controls and whether or not girls are currently living in a gay or lesbian household, the odds of graduating from high school are considerably lower than any other household type. Indeed, girls living in gay households are only 15 percent as likely to graduate compared to girls from opposite sex married homes.""

    ""It is important to note that the census identifies children living with their parents, and not just adults. Hence, children of same sex parents are those who respond affirmative to the question: 'Are you a child of a male (female) same-sex married or common law couple?’”"

    These two quotes taken together totally invalidate the claim of the study - they give every indication that current family status was not considered, just some vague connection to at some point in time having parents who were involved in a same-sex relationship.

    How can a study claim something matters but also doesn't matter?

  • USAlover Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 10:45 a.m.

    I can't measure what having a Mom (female) and a Dad (male) did to help me become a functioning member of society. Having both may not be a pre-requisite but it sure was a huge advantage.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 10:32 a.m.

    Scott Rose,

    What would a marriage certificate from the govt have anything to do with a couples ability to raise their children with sufficient upbringing to have them graduate?

    Are you excusing poor parenting by gay couples on a lack of a marriage certificate? Poor form.

    Children deserve better.

  • OHBU Columbus, OH
    Oct. 9, 2013 10:27 a.m.

    Douglas Allen sits on the board for the National Organization for Marriage--an anti-gay-marriage lobbying group. Do you think it might just be possible that he has a slight bias in conducting his study? Michael J. Rosenfeld at Stanford and Gary Gates at UCLA have already highlighted some of the major problems with this study. The most glaring issue is that he doesn't control for factors such as poverty. Once such factors are controlled for (necessary if you are actually trying to establish causation) the difference disappears.

  • 1978 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 10:25 a.m.

    Talk about an Inconvient Truth.

    I wonder who is going to be boycotted - the entire country of Canada or just these researchers?

  • Conner Johnson
    Oct. 9, 2013 10:15 a.m.

    A Canadian study.... Lost me just after reading that sentence.

  • ThornBirds St.George, Utah
    Oct. 9, 2013 9:55 a.m.

    Oh, Please.
    Why don't you try to locate some positive research for a change.
    DN seems to seek out all negative on this topic.
    Since this was again discussed at LDS Conference, is the barrage of anti-gay cruel bashing beginning all over again?

  • non believer PARK CITY, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 9:54 a.m.

    I am sorry, but I do not believe this study one bit! The authors are from some unknown University and since when has Canada ever represented the United States? I call BALONEY on this!

  • rogerdpack2 Orem, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 9:54 a.m.

    I bet little girls raised by 2 male guys are at something of a disadvantage...and wonder if vice versa as well. But of course that's just my theory, it would be interesting to see some studies on it. (And a note to the author of the original study, you can't publish things that are against gay marriage, don't you know that that's not PC anymore? LOL).

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 9:38 a.m.

    Biased studies produce biased results. Let's wait for some real peer review.

  • PLM Kaysville, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 9:28 a.m.

    Children are not naturally born into same sex unions, is it any wonder they don't thrive? The saddest little boy I've met was a three year-old son, created by artificial insemination, with two lesbian parents. It broke my heart to see such a young child without the natural enthusiasm possessed by most young children. The couple went on to have another child,then broke up within a few years. People may rail at the truth, but it is still the truth. Intact heterosexual married couples provide the best opportunity for a child's successful and happy outcome.

  • Scott Rose New York, NY
    Oct. 9, 2013 9:22 a.m.

    There is no causality between being raised by a gay parent and not graduating from high school. Put another way, many children raised by gay parents excel academically; many children raised by heterosexual parents do poorly in school. The study is ridiculous, because it claims that gay-headed families were legally on a equal footing with heterosexual headed families, yet the outcome measure is high-school graduation, and the data is from the 2006 Canadian census, taken one year after federal legal equality was achieved in Canada. That means the longest a legally-equal gay-headed family could have been raising a child was one year. How many 1-year-olds graduate high school?

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 9, 2013 8:59 a.m.

    I can't say this is surprising. It's obvious that the best environment for a child is a mom and dad together and married. Nothing else is an equal substitute.

  • Brave Sir Robin San Diego, CA
    Oct. 9, 2013 8:57 a.m.

    Oof, the study authors are going to catch some serious flak for this. Prepare to be bombarded by tolerance.