@ RedWings: Why are there no leaders in the tents with the boys? I'm
sorry - but there are many dangers when a group of children are left alone,
including many forms of bullying, dangerous behaviors with lighters, matches,
knives, or ropes, inappropriate games and comments, etc., etc., etc.And while we are casting stones, let us not forget to acknowledge the older
straight boys who want to knock or rape the sissy out of younger boys.There should be leaders in the tents with the boys.
@RedWings --"The bigger danger in Scouting is the older boys who
have identified themselves as "gay". "So -- according to
you -- both the BSA and the LDS have knowingly put their scouts at risk by
allowing these "dangerous" older boys into their program, while at the
same time they have knowingly refused to admit gay adults who are NOT a
danger?Is that REALLY what you want to say?" I know
people whose kids have had this exact thing happen."Adolescent
kids are going to experiment, no matter what their orientation. Even if some
boys feel they have been inappropriately approached, that doesn't mean
anything about the orientation of the boys that approached them.All
the way back in the 1940s, the Kinsey Report found that at least 30% of all men
have experimented sexually with another man at least once in their lives. That
includes LOADS of straight men -- and, of course, adolescents.Boys
who are openly homosexual are the very boys who are going to be LEAST likely to
approach other scout members. Remember, predators hide under a camouflage of
seeming "normality". Kids who admit their orientation will be under
intense scrutiny for some time to come.
The bigger danger in Scouting is the older boys who have identified themselves
as "gay". Having boys sleep in a tent together with no adult leaves
younger boys open to predatory behavior by other youth. It is the same as
putting a teenage boy and girl in the same tent. No one would think of ever
allowing that. However, it appears that it is fine to put a 16 year old with
raging hormones who is attracted to other boys in the same tent with younger
boys. I know people whose kids have had this exact thing happen. Because they
are minors and the BSA settles these case, they are not made public. It happens
far more than you would imagine.It is well established that
teenagers have trouble controlling their sex drives. That goes for gay and
straight teenagers. Unless someone can cite some "study" alleging that
gay boys don't have the same biologial changes and sex drives as
@Scott --"Would you allow a man to take your teenaged daughters
camping?"NO Scout leader -- of any gender or orientation --
should take ANY scout hiking alone.The Girl Scouts already has
straight male leaders.The Girl Scouts already has lesbian female
leaders.The Boy Scouts already has straight female leaders.Why
would gay male leaders be any different?@Kathy -- Please
try some FACTS instead of fantasies. In reality, gay couples experience domestic
violence and sexual abuse at roughly the same rate as straight couples.Am J Public Health. 2002 December -- "Published estimates of partner abuse
among MSM (gay men) range from 12% to 36%....these estimates are roughly
comparable to cited measures of domestic violence among heterosexual
women."The "Lesbian Partner Violence" sheet --
"Violence appears to be about as common among lesbian couples as among
heterosexual couples".@Scott --"The truth is,
you have absolutely no evidence to back up your wild assertions."The truth is that there is more risk from scouts and scout leaders who
"appear" to be heterosexual than from those who are open about their
homosexuality. True predators are experts at blending in with "normal"
society. Most BSA pedophiles have been married men.
These attacks occurred DESPITE the BSA's ban on homosexual leaders.Pedophilia is NOT the same thing as homosexuality. British
Journal of Psychiatry, 2001 -- men with "no evidence of homosexuality"
were at roughly 50% GREATER risk for becoming child abusers than men "who
were homosexually inclined".
Child Advocacy Center
-- 75% of all male child molesters are "married or have consenting sexual
relationships (with women)" and that "only about 4 percent of same-sex
abuse involves homosexual perpetrators". Archives of Sexual
Behavior, 1978 -- "sexual orientation was not related to the sex of the
victim targeted" and that "men who molested boys often had adult
relationships with women".
Association, National Association of Social Workers, American Academy of Child
Psychiatrists and Child Welfare League of America -- all acknowledge that gay
men are NOT more likely to molest children than heterosexual men.AN
Groth, former director of the Sex Offender Program at the Connecticut Department
of Corrections, has said: "my studies have indicated that homosexual males
pose LESS risk of sexual harm to children (both male and female)--from both an
absolute and a percentage incidence rate--than heterosexual males."
Chris B, "This is a sad reminder of why the Boy Scouts does not allow
homosexual leaders."So, going by your logic, if the pictures
that were found had been of little girls, then the perpetrator would obviously
be heterosexual; therefore, heterosexual men should not be scout leaders. Hmmm,
sounds like faulty logic to me.
Scouting have rules which scouts, parents and leaders should always insist on.
It's called "2 deep leadership" meaning 2 adults for every
activity. They also have rules about boys being alone with leaders. Follow those and other rules and things will 99.9999% of the time work out
fine. Don't and you are asking for trouble.
@kathy Sorry but your claim is Pantently false. First sex offender
registries do not list the sexuality of the perpetrator. Secondly if you look at
the research by the APA on the claimed sexualuality by perpatrators you will see
that your numbers are more then "400%" off. The facts however remains
they are not homosexual or heterosexual they are pediphiles (adults attracted to
This has nothing to do with gays and scouting. There is a difference between
being gay and being a pedophile. One can be gay and be as appalled at the
sexual exploitation of children as someone who is heterosexual. Utah Centrist
excellent comments. I concur.
once again Chris when someone perpetrates on a child of the same sex it does not
make that person a homosexual it makes then a person attracted to children also
known as a perpetrator.
Actually Utahcentrist- if you check the sex offender registry in just about any
state you will find out that homosexual assaults is about 400% higher then
heterosexual assault. Same goes for assault against gay adults only it is
40,000 more likely to be their live in gay friend. Just trying to keep the
facts as they really are instead of the mythology to try and convince those who
are not aware of the real numbers.
This is exactly why if my husband could not camp with my sons they did not go.
This is exactly why we did not do Eagle Scout. We also did not allow them to
stay overnight anywhere as children.
"Would you allow a man to take your teenaged daughters camping?"You mean, like a Bishop, along with plenty of other leaders as well?
Sure. I also wouldn't mind lesbian women being a girlscout leaders for
them.No one is suggesting that a gay scout leader should be given
carte blanche. For a camping trip there should always be multiple leaders
involved and plenty of checks and balances. Trust but verify.But a
blanket ban on all gay leaders in scouts, regardless of their character and
personal history, is counter-productive. The assumption that a
"straight" person is automatically more trustworthy than a "gay"
one is the reason why an abuser is able to fly under the radar. Most rapists are
straight. Most abusers are straight. Most murderers are straight. Sexual
orientation has little to no bearing on if a person is honest and trustworthy,
which is the very characteristics Scouting strives for. Blanket suspicion of a
minority group who is automatically deemed unworthy of participating runs
counter to the very mission of Scouting.
UtahCentrist"A man who is openly gay and wants to be a scout
leader is probably far-less likely to be a danger."The truth is,
you have absolutely no evidence to back up your wild assertions.Would you allow a man to take your teenaged daughters camping?
So sad that we have such perverts around us. I feel bad for these kids.Can you imagine what they experienced with this guy? Oh man.
Actually, Chris B, it highlights why the ban on homosexual leaders is pointless.
Being gay and being a pedophile are two ENTIRELY different things. Most
pedophiles, including those who prey on boys, broadcast themselves to the world
as "straight men." Most gays, just like most straight people, are 100%
opposed to the exploitation of children.A man who is openly gay and
wants to be a scout leader is probably far-less likely to be a danger. He is
being honest about himself and by doing so, parents who are leery about
inappropriate behavior will be 100% informed of his orientation before they ever
send their child out. Nothing hidden and therefore less chance of ulterior
motives. If the person is actually a pedophile who is looking to get
in a position to exploit children, then they will lull children and parents in
to a false sense of security. By banning "homosexuals" from scouts, the
BSA is actually providing perfect cover for the kind of predator who would abuse
a child. He's a leader, he must be straight and trustworthy!The
ban on scout leaders of all orientations is self-defeating when it comes to
This is a sad reminder of why the Boy Scouts does not allow homosexual leaders.
Although most homosexuals are probably fine people, it is not safe for a man
attracted to other males to be taking the neighbor boys camping.I
hope the victim get the help they need