I have long called for atheists to stop hating on Christians and organized
religion and start grouping together in communities to reflect their versions of
service and civility to their own members as Christians do. Instead of sitting
together on Sunday and vilifying Christians and mocking their beliefs, lets hope
they will start planning visits to the elderly, taking food to the homeless and
needy, mentoring families who have lost their way, responding in times of
disaster with volunteer help. I read of a man back east who suffered losses in
Sandy who refused to allow a group of LDS kids to clean up his front lawn as
they worked their way down a street and then later was seen griping to the media
that he could get no help from anyone. You have to feel sorry for a person or
belief system that is so filled with hate. Sadly for him, there were no groups
of atheists making the rounds to help strangers in need or to at least check on
members with similar belief systems.
Maybe now instead of whining and complaining we will get some humanitarian
efforts and donations out of them.
One of the major tenants of support for Atheism thought is that life has no
purpose. (It just comes and goes). Perhaps, in defense of Mormonism is that
Mormonism has a defined doctrine of purpose of man's life: (To receive a
mortal body.) I think Mormonism may be the only religion that has a real
definite defined purpose for life. If I am mistaken I hope I will be corrected.
It is good to learn.
Formed by standup comedians. LOL
RE:1.96 Standard Deviations, Jeremiah 1:5? God knew Jeremiah before his birth;
nowhere does it intimate that Jeremiah knew God. If God is omniscient
(all-knowing) and sovereign, we would expect Him to know Jeremiah. Where does this teaching of preexistence come from? “Before time began
the soul was without a body, an archetype, the heavenly man pure in spirit in
paradise, yet longing after the archetype, God. Some of the pure spirits
descended into bodies and lost their purity” (Plato and the Stoics
philosophy).Greek philosophy is the origin of this type of
philosophy, not the Bible. The Bible teaches in1 Cor. 15:46-47: “However,
the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man
is from the earth, earthy; the second is man is from heaven.” Natural man
1st then the spiritual man refutes pre-existence.RE: Twin
Lights,Tertullian(150 A.D.), well prior to the council of Nicea, taught
Trinitarian theology . "three Persons, one Substance" from the Greek,
Heb 1:3, Hypostasis=substance, real being.
So this is the alternative to the alternative.
@Lowonil: I agree with your comment about the social aspect of religion for so
many. There is little true dosctine and worship (look at the low percentages on
home and visiting teaching, etc in many wards).As to my previous
comment about atheism being a religion: God exists in a spiritual plane.
Science deals with the physical world. Science is only useful in describing
what it can experiment on. One cannot experiment on the spiritual in the true
scientific sense.I do not see religion and science as mutually
exclusive for this reason. I see a lot of so-called "scientists" twists
themselves in knots and violate their own scientific method and logic to try to
prove God does not exist. Harry Emerson Fosdick is a good one to
read on this - much more eloquent than I am. God's existence
cannot be proven in the physical world. If it could, there would be no need for
Faith. We have faith or we do not; God gave all of us the freedom to choose,
but there is a right and a wrong choice....
sharrona-Christ's prophets and apostles, modern & ancient,
have taught clearly regarding our existence before mortality. Here are some
examples (not limited to):D&C 93:29 - "Man was also in the
beginning with God. [...]"D&C 138:56 - "Even before they
were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of
spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in
his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men."Abraham
3:22-23 - "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that
were organized before the world was; [...]; And God [...] stood in the midst of
them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that
were spirits, [...];Jeremiah 1:5 - "Before I formed thee in the
belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified
thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."Revelation
12 - [The war in heaven before Earth was formed]
@RedWings "Atheism is a religion. Belief in no god is still a religious
belief."Athiesm is a religion just like baldness is a hair
color.I think everyone is missing the point. In our suburbanized
auto dependent society everyone moves around in the privacy of their cars and
interacts with their glowing rectangles in the privacy of their detached single
family suburban homes. Churches and their related activites are the only places
left where social interaction occurs any more.How many of your fellow
church members don't believe a word of the underlying theology but put on
the suit and show up every Sunday just to continue to be part of the community?
Probably a lot more than you think.
I am not smart enough to explain the nature of the universe to anyone, but I can
say with unmatched certainty that anything humanity currently defines as a God
is utter fiction.
@Twin Lights - “Care to enlighten me?”I would say that
definition of atheist is the most extreme Richard Dawkins-like definition, but
it is the most widely used. I was also trying to make the point that we all know
what it is like to be an atheist (non-believer) so it really shouldn’t
seem strange.I assume most everyone on this board is an atheist with
respect to Zeus, Odin, Baal, Krishna, Shiva, Ishtar, Osiris, Marduk, etc., etc.,
etc…To your last point, yes, I would classify myself as an
agnostic who believes there is an unseen order to the Universe and a power
behind it far greater and more mysterious than anything we can conceive. And I
would even go so far as to say that aligning ourselves with this order likely
connects us to our true self (which could be called God or the Holy Spirit).But I also think 99% of all the stories man has invented about this
order are nonsense and are mostly a means for achieving power & control.I think Emerson comes close though… as obscure as he often is.
I firmly believe in God. But in other publications I have seen the Star
Trek-like "A" being advanced as a symbol for atheism. It is far
superior to the “Atomic A” currently used by the military.Tyler D,Of course atheism is not simply the non-belief in an
anthropomorphic god but non-belief in any god whatsoever. But, under either
definition, I really did not think you were an atheist but rather agnostic or
even a believer in God though less so as defined in the Judeo-Christian
traditions. Care to enlighten me?Sharrona,Do you
follow everything Tertullian said? What about his views on women? Or new
@RedWings – “Atheism is a religion. Belief in no god is still a
religious belief.”What a strange comment and a bizarre concept
in this article (an atheist church). And I’m pretty sure calling an
atheist a religious believer violates the logical law of non-contradiction.Imagine if our whole society believed in astrology and propagated those
believes as a religion (which was the case in ancient times). If a small group
of individuals subsequently became skeptical to the point of agnosticism or even
full fledged non-belief (e.g., as an atheist is with respect to an
anthropomorphic god), would it make any sense to call these non-astrologers
religious or believers? If so, believers in what exactly?
All of the trappings of a Church with none of the blessings. Doesn't sound
like much of a religion to me. Sounds like more of a Social Club with tax-exempt
@1.96 Standard Deviations & Sharonna;Fiction then and fiction
now; those books are still nothing more than fiction.
Will people please stop calling atheism a religion! Did some of you even read
the article? Religion is a belief in a divine creator, otherworldliness and the
supernatural. Atheism is a DISBELIEF in all of this. In atheism there is no
divinely-inspired scripture, immortal soul, creating and dictating God or gods,
redemption or salvation, Armageddon, final judgment or heaven and hell. A belief
in what can be verified empirically is called SCIENCE!
Atheism is a religion. Belief in no god is still a religious belief.
@sharrona"I made a TV stand out of cherry wood", in other
words taking existing material it was shaped into a piece of furniture that was
not previously in existence. I "brought it into existence" but I did
not create the materials from which I formed it.The scripture you
mention: "without him was not any thing made THAT WAS MADE" is very
explicit imo. "Any thing that WAS made" suggests to me that there were
things that were not made then, but any thing that WAS made it was He who formed
it.In the beginning the "world was without form and void"
(Genesis 1:2) but God formed it to be a habitable planet. It was unformed and
empty but then God formed (shaped or organized) it into a solid world partly
covered by water, and then caused it to be planted out, and then inhabited.I see your point of view but I have another one; that's all.
RE: 1.96 Standard Deviations. Revelation through modern day apostles and
prophets expand our understanding on what "create" meant in the
Bible.(Jude 1:6 KJV) the angels which kept not their first estate=
(*arche, Grk 746) but left their own habitation,… See Abr 3:26. *first
place, principality, rule.i.e..( Jude 1:6 NIV) And the angels who
did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own
home… Fallen angels(devils) Nothing to with Ante-mortal being...Christians, and Jews believe that God created all that exists ex nihilo (out
of nothing)For in him we live and move and have our Being...(Acts
17:28)Creation is dependent on God for it’s very existence.(Ecc 12:7)… the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
In (2Tim 1:9 & Titus 1:2)God existed before time, implying he created time.
… God who gives life to the dead and Calls into Being things that
were not.(Romans 4:17 NIV).Tertulllian wrote against the Platonic
doctrine the Pre-existence of the soul and the Pythagorean doctrine of
transmigration, re-incarnation. (200 A.D. On Souls),
So now they're in effect defining atheism as a religion. Good. Maybe
they'll stop their legal actions to establish their religion as the
official state religion, which is forbidden by the constitution.
sharrona-Those are great scriptures. We are in agreement that Christ
is the Creator. Revelation through modern day apostles and prophets expand our
understanding on what "create" meant in the Bible and the Book of
Mormon.Abraham 3:24: "And there stood one among them that was
like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for
there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an
earth whereon these may dwell;"* Christ used extant materials to
create the world, it wasn't ex-nihilo.Abraham 4:1: "And
then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and
they, [...], organized and formed the heavens and the earth."* A
better descriptor for "created" in the Bible and Book of Mormon is
"organized."Lastly, D&C 131:7-8 - "There is no such
thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure,
and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies
are purified we shall see that it is all matter."
Atheism will shatter under the juggernaut of Islam. We're only a couple of
decades away from seeing it happen in France, and not much longer in the rest of
Europe. If your religion says your only life is right now, and you will never
exist again, then self-preservation becomes priority one-- and this includes
excising any artificially constructed beliefs, originally held to avoid the
specter of nihilism, for the purpose of survival. Atheism flourishes only where
it is propped up and comfortable.
RE: 1.96 Standard Deviations. 3 Nephi 9:15, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I
created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are [...]Context,
(John 1:1-3) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was
with God, and the Word (Jesus)was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were *made; without him nothing was *made that has been*
made. *made ( Greek 1096, Ginoma) to become, i.e. to come into
existence, begin to be, receive being.(Col 1:16)For in him all things were
created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones
or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and
for him.The Bible and the Book of Mormon teach, Creation Ex Nihlio
Another reason why I love the Book of Mormon: Alma 30 (Korihor the anti-Christ)
and Jacob 7 (Sherem the anti-Christ). It strongly shows how foolish these kind
of philosophies are.Little did Dave Gamble know the
"doctrine" he uttered is not an original idea and was already presented
by many false teachers in ages of old.Helaman 16:18 - "it is not
reasonable that such a being as a Christ shall come." Those were the
philosophies of the "atheists" of that time, and then Christ came to the
Americas and proved them wrong.Maybe they ought to consider 3 Nephi
9:14-15 - "Yea, verily I say unto you, if ye will come unto me ye shall have
eternal life. Behold, mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever
will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me. Behold, I
am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all
things that in them are [...]"
I don't want to attend church on Sunday, why in the world would I want to
Isn't this an oxymoron?