Comments about ‘Dick Harmon: Sophomore QBs will be huge in BYU-Utah showdown’

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Published: Monday, Sept. 16 2013 7:20 p.m. MDT

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Chris B
Salt Lake City, UT

byu fans:

I apologize I am over the top in most of my comments and I'll quickly eat crow if I am wrong Saturday. I highly doubt I will be, but I will if I am wrong. Here is an honest assessment of the two programs if I may:

Recruiting is HUGE. That can't be overstated. We can all point to 2 stars guys that became NFL stars and 5 star guys that became busts, but history has PROVEN that stars and recruiting matter. A 5 star has a higher probabilty of going to the NFL than a 4, a 4 higher than a 3 and a 3 higher than a 2. This has been proven. If you look at all recent national champions, they all had extremely high average star recruiting classes for a few years leading up to that championship.

With that, I dont think any single recruit is telling(2 star or 4 star), but the AVERAGE is very telling. Of course coaching and other things impact a team, but again the higher the star, history has proven the higher the likelihood of playing in the NFL. Average stars matter!

continued next post...

Chris B
Salt Lake City, UT

..continued,

Every year since Utah's Pac 12 invite, Utah has a higher AVERAGE stars in recruiting AND has won HEAD TO HEAD recruiting(if you refuse to acknowledge the importance of AVERAGE stars).

Utah is 3-0 in head to head and average stars in recruiting. Utah is also 3-0 on the field. If you listen to most of the head to head recruits, almost all have stated the Pac 12 as a big reason for picking Utah. I ask sincerly, if Utah has gotten the best(most, not all) Mormon recruits every year since Pac 12 invite, who CAN byu get?

Some byu fans will want to throw out Utah's Pac 12 struggles in trying to disprove my comemnts, but I shake my head at that "logic." Utah doesn't play byu 12 games a year. The average Pac 12 team has had even better recruiting than Utah has, and its something Utah has to continue to improve.

If Mormon recruits are typically picking Utah(and mention the Pac 12 as a strong reason), I see Utah contining to be the better team when the two teams meet.

Chris B
Salt Lake City, UT

final comment(assuming others were posted)

Even Vai Sikahema said this week he thinks the reason Utah has won the last 3 is due to Pac 12 recruiting.

There are facts that cannot be denied:

1. Utah is 3-0 against byu since our Pac 12 invite

2. Utah has had a higher AVERAGE star recruiting class EVERY year(3-0) during this time

3. Utah was won HEAD to HEAD recruiting every year(3-0) during this time

4. If byu isn't getting the best Mormons(which you aren't last 3 years), you're in trouble

I would sincerely like to hear byu fans opinions. Please just dont say stars dont mean anything. Any single persons stars don't matter, I agree. But OVERALL stars and OVERALL head to head recruiting matter, big time.

Cougsrock original
Maricopa, Az

Chris B. Other than that anomaly with Heaps, the games have come down to last play dink and dunk plays at the end. Sometimes just blind luck. Do you realize prior to the Ute run BYU won 3 in a row with Hall and Beck? Have you heard the term,"what goes around comes around"? If the Utes had blown BYU out 3 straight instead of blind luck your theory might hold water. They didn't and it doesn't.

Adirondack Cougar
Loon Lake, NY

The facts are the facts. I will trust what you have said regarding the past three years, because I don't follow the recruiting too closely. From what I can see, the Y has to look beyond the largest sized high schools, where most of the higher stars are (because that is the only place the services follow) and find those that are considered "not as good due to a lack of competition." Case in point is Jimmer Fredette, from my home ward. He played in a high school that only had about 150 grads per year. There are plenty of other examples on the football team, I just don't know their history.

My question to you is: If Utah continues to have losing seasons how long will they be able to continue to recruit the higher starred athletes? I say maybe one or two more years at most. Why would a kid want to come and play for a losing team without a bowl game when they could go to the Y and play all over the country on a top 25 team and get national TV coverage, and perhaps get into a playoff? It won't be PAC-12 membership.

CougFaninTX
Frisco, TX

While I agree that recruiting is important, ultimately it's the talent on the field that makes a difference. I agree that PAC12 membership has improved Utah's recruiting, but on Saturday BYU will have more talent on the field. Look at the number of pre-season nominations BYU players have received versus the number for the Utes. It's how they play in college that matters, not how they played in high school.

KVN will be the most talented player on the field on Saturday. This game is the reason he came back for his senior season.

The QBs will make a difference. In the end, it was Riley's fumble that was run back for a TD that made the difference last year. That one play was the difference between a W and a L. It's no secret that Utah will load the box. This game will come down to Hill's ability to pass. If he's above 50%, I think the Cougs will break the 3 year drought.

Chris B
Salt Lake City, UT

Adirondack,

Fair question. If(big if) Utah continued to have losing seasons I agree recruiting may dip down until we got things turned around. Fair point.

Cougs rock,

you clearly chose not to read my posts. You incorrectly try and suggest that I am saying whoever has the higher stars is guaranteed the win. Far from it. I never suggested anything like that. Coaching comes into play, making mental errors comes into play, injuries come into play.

I am simply pointing out the last 3 years more often than not the best Mormons are picking Utah and saying the PAC 12 is a big reason. Also I remind you that all recent national champions have had great recruiting classes in the years leading up to it. Utah will still be in the PAC 12 next year and the year after and the year after and the year after. Byu won't.

So if most of the best Mormons are picking Utah for our PAC 12 membership, byu is in trouble

goforit
Provo, UT

All objective fans will see that neither program is elite. They are slightly above average. Neither team has had a huge win in the last three years. They beat who they should beat and lose to who they should lose to. Once in awhile they lose to a team they shouldn't. Utah with Colorado ad BYU with Virginia. I don't see the trend changing that much in the near future. This year the teams are close again

I predict a Ute victory because both teams are going to have to pass, and Utah has the better passing quarterback. He won't have to worry about interceptions because BYU hardly ever gets turnovers. Taysom Hill cannot pass right now. Maybe he will improve next year, but this year he will continue to struggle with accuracy. It's hard to work on mechanics enough to help during a season to change much.

I am not a fan of either team, but get entertainment from both fan bases who think they are so close to playing for a national title. It's nice to hope but it isn't close to happening so quit calling for your coaches heads.

Utah 31 BYU 17

Ken
Sandy, UT

@Adirondack,

"If Utah continues to have losing seasons how long will they be able to continue to recruit the higher starred athletes? I say maybe one or two more years at most. Why would a kid want to come and play for a losing team without a bowl game when they could go to the Y and play all over the country on a top 25 team and get national TV coverage, and perhaps get into a playoff?"

First of all, if Utah continues to struggle, the more likely scenario is these good Utah recruits will leave the state. BYU hasn't done anything in recent years, and even your own fan base admits in the last 4 years you're something like 2-12 against good teams. No recruits care about all your WAC wins.

And playoffs? Please tell me you're joking. When has byu proven they would have been close to or invited to a playoff? Utah has 2 seasons in the last 10 years where we'd have made the playoffs. Byu? Zero. What has byu shown they'd be in contention for playoffs?

What year? Utah 2003 and 2008 would have been in. And byu?

Ken
Sandy, UT

cougsrock,

So we call it an anomaly when Utah wins by more than usual? Chris's point is recruits are saying themselves the Pac 12 is a big factor in their decision. Chris is also correct about Utah having beaten byu in head to head recruits the last several years.

What a ridiculous comment to say only if a team blows another team out year after year after year can we make any determination as to why. Don't kid yourself. The better team usually wins the game. Better athletes usually make better teams. And more stars are usually better than less star guys.

If Mormon kids like the Pac 12 over indy byu now, why wouldn't they like the Pac 12 in the future over indy byu? Because we all know the Pac 12 wont be calling. You should actually try addressing Chris's point if you disagree.

nhatch82
Eagle Mountain, UT

@Chris B

I am not gonna lie buddy this is probably the first legit comment you have made. I have to agree with overall stars converting to better team to some point. (ie. alabama Oregon ect.) I thing I would disagree with is that I don't always believe that this leads to better teams. I think the very top rated recruiting classes see the difference. a team that averages 2 1/2-3 star recruits to the team that averages 3-4 star recruits doesn't necessarily mean a better team. case in point Utah BCS teams Boise State BCS teams ect. If we are all being honest there is not much difference in talent between the two teams. Individual stars are worthless! Jake Heaps is the poster boy of that. Elite 11 passing MVP Top star athlete no. 1 Quarterback in the nation, and he is terrible not just with BYU but Charlie Wiess cant even get the dude to play well.

Being completely honest I believe that byu has the edge in talent this year, but its close and I think coaching and quarterback play are going to be the keys to the game. CONT.

Chris B
Salt Lake City, UT

nhatch,

I never said higher stars always leads to better teams.

Where do you guys make this stuff up from?

Seriously?

I simply said recruiting is HUGE and it makes a big difference.

And yes, the difference between an team with an AVERAGE of 2 stars is significantly different than an AVERAGE of 3 stars. HUGE difference

Just as there is a difference on AVERAGE with kids with a 3.5 GPA and kids with a 3.0 GPA

Throwing out Boise doesn't disprove anything. I've always said coaching can have a big impact.

But answer this, as well as Boise has been, how do you think Coach Peterson in Boise would have done if he'd been getting 3 star recruits instead of mostly 2's?

His teams would have been even better.

jarka-rus
Layton, Utah

Too bad all those Star recruits just lost to OSU,,, a team that lost to an FCS team, so whoop dee dooo Chris B, guess the Utes should start scheduling NFL teams they are so unstoppable with all those Blue chip recruits

jdub1942
PROVO, UT

This was such a disappointing article. With the subject matter this could have gone into way more comparisons about this years teams, but decided to go with BYU's QB history and its impact on the rivalry games. It boiled down to, BYU QB good= BYU win, BYU QB bad = BYU lose. So silly. I spent a fair amount of time compiling some stats yesterday, maybe I'll post them here in a few following posts.

Chris, Wow! Real discussion! some of the replies responded in kind, some didn't. Hope we see more of this, good comments Chris.

Go Utes

jdub1942
PROVO, UT

I dont care about the rivalry game going a way a couple of years every once in a while. But as far as QB matchups go, this is a very inopportune time. Two very exciting, young QBs that I wish we could watch match up 3 times.

Adirondack Cougar
Loon Lake, NY

Ken,
I said perhaps. Of course it depends on how well we play going forward and it will depend on how big the playoff becomes. 8 teams, 16 teams....... But if we can climb back up and be a consistant top twenty team it is a possibility. On the other hand, if Utah is always the 4th choice for California recruits and can't get to the level of the better PAC-12 teams then being part of a playoff will never happen either. BYU has a broader base from which to recruit because of the church connection (the world) where as the U seems to only have regional tie-ins. BYU's honor code is also an issue and can be a deal breaker, but we understand that and seem to be able to appeal to enough young men that believe in it. I believe each school will continue to get good recruits and some will be be highly touted and others will not, but it's the team (and coaches) that can take the no-star, 1 star and make them into an impact player, that will have the most success.

MisterDivot
Lehi, UT

@Chris B,

Yes, you usually are over the top in your comments, I assume because you enjoy getting BYU fans all riled up, agitated and excited. I admit, there can be some fun in that, but I appreciate when your comments are "insightful", not "inciteful".

I'm a loyal BYU fan. I used to cheer wildly for BYU and every team that plays against Utah. As I've gotten older, while a part of me has a tidbit of satisfaction when Utah loses (old habits never die, or perhaps die slowly), I have gotten to the point where I can recognize that Utah has a solid football program, and even cheer for them when they are not playing BYU. After all, they still represent our great state, as does Utah St.

Sometimes your fans tout the PAC-12 more than their beloved Utes. But I agree with your posts today, the PAC-12 has done well for Utah and their recruiting, and wins will/should follow.

I've never replied to you before, but have read comments. I actually like this side of Chris B better! :)

Best luck this week - hoping for a competitive game on both sides!

Go Cougars!

Christine B. Hedgefog
Salt Lake City, UT

Ha, let the back peddling begin. The #1 anti-BYU and anti-Mormon commenter for years on the DesNews sports section up to and including yesterday and now today she starts out with "I apologize I am over the top in most of my comments and I'll quickly eat crow if I am wrong Saturday" and then thinks she can enter civil dialog based on common sense and respectful comments.

Kinda like she was absent after prefacing last Saturday's game with how significantly better the U was than OSU and how easy of a cake walk her team was going to have. Any crow afterwards? Zero, Zip, Zilch, Notta, None.

Your credibility has long been cast in crimson goggled concrete sister. Not a single thing you can do about it at this point.

Christine B. Hedgefog
Salt Lake City, UT

"I'll quickly eat crow if I am wrong Saturday"

The only crow necessary is your silence. No need to wait until Saturday to start eating it either!

Ken
Sandy, UT

Adirondack

"it's the team (and coaches) that can take the no-star, 1 star and make them into an impact player, that will have the most success."

WRONG! It's the team that's has 3, 4, and 5 star recruits that turn them into even better players that will have the most success. Are you saying Alabama, Florida, Oregon, LSU, and other teams with the most success recently have had that success because they've "turned no star and 1-star players into impact players"? WRONG. It's because they have mostly 3+ star recruits and good coaching who makes them better.

With very few exceptions, byu can and only does get Mormon recruits. And if Utah is usually the "4th choice for California recruits" what does that say about byu, who is losing in recruiting to Utah? Chris is right, overall stars do matter, as does head to head recruiting.
And currently byu is NOT getting most of the best Mormons. They're picking Utah. So now byu is left to the Mormon leftovers that no one else wanted. Not a recipe for success!

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