EternalPerspective, Priesthood authority? In(D&C 110: 1-16) Elias and
Elijah appear to JS, but in the Bible they are the same person. The KJV
translators attempted to transliterate Elijah to Elias because there isn’t
a Greek character for the English letter J.To avoid confusion,
modern translations: NIV, NJKV, and NASB have Elijah instead of Elias in(Mt
11:14,; Luke 1:17)JS was fooled. Jesus had to become human to be our
high priest. Hebrews 2:17,For this reason he had to be made like his brothers
in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to
God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Jesus has a
permanent priesthood. The Aaronic or Levitical priesthood ended with
the death of Christ. The function ,and the term Cohen means, ’one who
stands up for another, and mediate the cause.” Before the Great Sacrifice
,the priest had to stand in the gap for the people and offer animal sacrifices.
Do Mormons still carry out this function. No! He gave the
right(authority) to become children of God(John 1:12 KJV& JST)
sharronaTithing as an "Old Testament" only association is
like saying temples, covenants, and Priesthood authority is too. The New Testament shows Jesus maintaining reverence for the temple in
Jerusalem as "His Father's House" despite the fact that it was
polluted by "money changers" and had not been sanctified in many
centuries. The temple is at the center of ancient Israelite history but
isn’t mentioned much in the New Testament. Does that make it only part of
Mosaic Law fulfilled by Christ?Covenants bound by Priesthood
authority were central in the Old Testament. The New Testament loosely mentions
them but you have to search for the references among relatively sparse coverage.
Does that mean covenants were only part of Mosaic Law fulfilled by Christ?Priesthood authority was the binding power in the Old Testament to
anoint leaders, perform ordinances, and do the work of God by authority
delegated to those who held the Priesthood. Not much is mentioned in the New
Testament about the Priesthood outside of Hebrews and expressions like
"laying on of the hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost". Does that mean
Priesthood authority was only part of Mosaic Law fulfilled by Christ?
Help me out here. When did "church" articles specifically meant for
church members become part of the mainstream deseret news. I thought we had the
ensign and the church news for these kind of articles. It's a slow news
day...time to put in a talk from last weeks sacrament meeting on sacrifice. I
don't know that the Deseret News is the right place for these kind of
articles. maybe the target audience for the paper is only mormons. Maybe the
news is trying to "serve" the mormon subscribers better by having church
talks included the paper? I think these belong in the ensign or church news.Lets keep the deseret news about real news.
RE: Twin Lights, Instead of a legal requirement to tithe, One can decide for
himself whether he should give five percent,10%, 15%, or more. It's up to
him, according to whatever he has purposed in his own heart as God has prospered
him.To put it in a straightforward way,there is no moral obligation
in the N.T. to give 10 % of one's income regardless of the circumstances.
That was a provision given to Israel under the theocracy that is not repeated in
the N.T. it is replaced by a new ethic that we see in 2 Cor 6\8.@(Mal 3:7…)Return to me, and I will return to you,”...
Israel’s redemption, she must repent. See (Zech 1:2-4). 3:8
“Can a person rob God? In tithes and contributions, How are we robbing
you?” The tithes and contributions were for the Levitical(priesthood) (see
Num 18:8, 11, 19, 21-24). 3:10 “Bring the entire tithe into
the storehouse”. A place for storing grain, frankincense, temple vessels,
wine, and oil (Neh 13:5). “for the[LDS] Temple”?
Twin lights - Yes, all ten commandments would qualify. The ten commandments are
also things that if not followed are immoral. Thou shalt not kill, steal, lie,
commit adultery, bear false witness against your neighbor, etc. Those are things
that are sins, they are immoral. It isn't immoral to not pay tithing. And
for the church to make paying money a prerequisite to entering the temple is
somewhat suspect to say the least.
To associate blessings with tithing is a wrong road. If the Lord says to pay
tithing, we otta do it. We pay and feel good about ourselves and our
relationship with God. Lots of people are rich, have good lives, pay no tithing
or give to the poor. So what? In additon to tithing, we give time, allegiance,
and service and hope worldly blessings will come. And if they don't, so
what? I'm looking forward to what happens on the other side, not especially
what happens today.
Brahmabull-For Mormons, tithing has been re-affirmed through living
prophets very close by. You could burn all the Bibles (and Books of Mormon,
etc.) in the world and Mormons would still practice the law of tithing --
because we are taught from living, inspired servants of God (prophets &
apostles). Tithing also provides a way to bless the lives of many people.
Tithing funds are used for good and noble purposes.Also, with the
marvel of modern technology, learning the ways of God are not out of reach -- we
have the Internet, televisions, radios, magazines, and such to name a few. Lastly, to Mormons, tithing is not about money -- it really isn't.
In one of our scriptures, Doctrine & Covenants, it states the following
(section 29, verse 34): "Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things
unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was
temporal; [...]In summary, tithing is a spiritual law and is not
about money. Tithing is about sacrifice, overcoming selfishness, developing
Christ-like love, serving others, etc., etc.
Sharrona,Here is the heading for verses 6-12 from the NIV:“Breaking Covenant by Withholding Tithes”Also, the
last sentence of verse 7 makes it clear that there is a question to be answered.
The following verses (reference tithing) answer that question.Again, MANY protestant denominations teach tithing. Are you saying they are
wrong? Yes or no please..Brahmabull,Wouldn't each of the Ten Commandments also qualify as "a commandment
given thousands of years ago to a people far away"?
I know better then to obey a commandment given thousands of years ago to a
people far away from here. Tithing is a way for churches to control their
members. They say it is in the bible, nevermind it isn't in the new
testament. They say your soul is in danger if you don't pay tithing, and
people believe them so they give money. I am sure that god isn't going to
punish me for not obeying a commandment he never made to me directly, but to a
people thousands of years ago.
Money we earn isn't even ours to begin with. God created all things on this
Earth, and also gave us the opportunity to have a physical body so we could work
in mortality in the first place. We are merely asked to give back 10% of what we
have earned even though our efforts really are not that significant. Yes, we are promised blessings for being honest with our tithes and offerings.
However, a lot of the blessings have already been given to us! We're paying
a small part of the infinite amount we are indebted to God anyway.
RE: EternalPerspective, Tithing is an O. T. concept. The tithe was a
requirement of the law in which all Israelites were to give 10 percent of
everything they earned and grew to the Tabernacle/Temple (Lev 27:30; Numbers
18:26; Deu 14:24; 2 Chr 31:5). In fact, the O.T . Law required multiple tithes
which would have pushed the total to around 23.3 percent, not the 10 percent
which is generally considered the tithe amount today. Some understand the O.T.as
a method of taxation to provide for the needs of the priests and Levites in the
sacrificial system. The N. T. nowhere commands, or even recommends,
that Christians submit to a legalistic tithe system. Paul states that believers
should set aside a portion of their income in order to support the church (1 Cor
16:1-2). Christians should pray and seek God’s wisdom in
participating in how much to give (James 1:5). but Mormons are under O.T.
law.@Twin Lights (Mal 3:7…) Return to me, and I will return to
you,”... Israel’s redemption, she must repent. See (Zech 1:2-4). Not
A sincere questionDo LDS have a choice in who they pay their tithing
to.For example, can one pay 10% of their income to, say, a homeless
shelter for troubled youth and forgo paying to the LDS church. Could one bring
their charity receipts to the bishop and get a check mark.Wouldn't 10% to the homeless shelter meet the "requirements" as
described in the bible?I suspect that I know the answer, but have
never heard it.
riverofsun,It says nothing of such folks. Many of the general
authorities came from such stock.Though I believe there are certain
temporal blessings associated with tithing, I do not believe that wealth is one
For over forty years while living in Utah, I have heard that those of the LDS
faith, who have a great deal of assets along with their tremendous amounts of
money are "very blessed" because they pay enormous amounts of money to
"their Church".What does that say about the humble, hard working
family, who is very spiritual, follows the Ten Commandments, and never reaches
the spectrum of the rich man?
Paying tithing in the LDS is just as optional as buying a ticket to Disney
World.You don't have to buy a ticket, unless you want to enter
BrahmabullTithing is a commandment to those who have covenanted with
God through His Priesthood to pay 10% of their annual increase as a token of
faith, sacrifice, and obedience. This does not negate the value of personal
external charity offerings (money, time, etc.). Rather, they are two different
things.sharronaTithing is a free will offering, but one
that is sealed by covenant to God directly. For those who think God does not
work in the patterns of the Bible today, tithing appears as a forced man-made
provision. But, if you turn to the Bible, you can see that Abraham
paid tithes to Melchizedic (among other examples). But, because such precious
truths of any specific nature were lost from the Bible in the New Testament era,
or changed by modern churches, people don't follow much of anything
specific like Sabbath Day observance. From manna to miracles,
everything Jehovah did to guide the Israelites during their 40 year exodus from
Egypt helped point them to utter reliance on God for all physical and spiritual
needs. Tithing is another way God reminds us that obedience is foundational to
spiritual growth and protection to become our potential as God's children.
No matter what the Brethren or members do, those who live to find fault with the
Church will never be convinced by the good works performed by them. Any mistake
made by imperfect members are magnified by the haters. I do know one thing, my
tithe dollars are used to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ and not spent on
Gulfstream 6 private jets, 20 million dollar mansions and things of the world.
For security reasons precautions are taken in behalf of the authority and good
people who have done well, donate time, talents and goods in order the spread
the Word. I invest for my temporal and spiritual retirement. I do know my
temporal retirement fund isn't going with me at death.
I have been putting my tithing into retirement savings since 1976 and I am doing
fine. I like to know where my money is going and the Church is not transparent
on how they spend the hard earned dollars of its membership.
Sharrona,I do not care to argue the specifics with you. All I can
say is that MANY non-LDS Christian churches teach tithing. I sometimes listen
to preachers on the radio and tithing is often mentioned.A
non-preacher (but famous Evangelical) I sometimes listen to is Dave Ramsey. He
also advocates tithing.Perhaps you should take up this fight with
Moses 5:6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam,
saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I
know not, save the Lord commanded me.====== That's
good enough for me.We shouldn't expect to be getting anything in
return.But sacrifice is best defined as giving one thing, in return
for something better.
To Cats:The church does not force people to pay them money. But
there is a lot of peer pressure to pay the church in our society. If you choose
not to pay them then you are not allowed into certain ceremonies and activities
in the church. This is hard for many families.On a side note. My
wife and I stopped paying our tithing 5 years ago and life has never been
better. I am still waiting for my life to go down hill but it never has.
RE: Twin Lights, 2Cor 9:7 sets the central N.T. principle for giving: “Let
each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under
compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.” N. T. tithing advocates
argue that this verse refers to freewill offerings as opposed to tithing, but
this involves an a priori assumption that tithing is N. T, that simply
can’t be proven. We must take this passage as instructive for all
instances of giving in the church.What, then, does the Holy Spirit through
the apostle have to say about N. T. He stresses that the gift must be from the
heart. When people teach a requirement of tithing, they run the risk of
negating the revealed will of God for N. T. giving? Love and
devotion to God! That imparts the real value to giving. And this perhaps serves
to explain why no command as to the amount is laid down for believers. To obey a
command stating the amount or proportion would be easy, but what exercise of
heart would there be? Loyalty would be superseded by mechanical religion. Love
would be replaced by formalism.
The promised blessing was made through a prophet (Malachi) to a nation (Judah).
Part of the promise can be applied to individuals but not all. Judah (one land)
was promised if their people were faithful in paying their tithes other lands
(or their peoples) would call Judah blessed. It cannot apply to me as an
individual because I am not a land that other lands can call blessed. Other
nations, and for the most part this nation, haven't even heard of me to
call me anything.Other blessings referred to fruits not being
destroyed or cast unripened from the tree, and not being destroyed. Great
blessings come to individuals though in paying "tithes and offerings".
I can vouch for that.We have to use a certain amount of common
sense. D and C Section 25 states "Keep my commandments continually, and a
crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am
you cannot come... THIS IS MY VOICE UNTO ALL." (v 15-16)Some have
applied "unto ALL" to the whole section, but I have not been called
"to make a selection of sacred hymns" or be a scribe to Joseph Smith
Do I get those same blessings for donating money to charities, animal shelters,
etc instead of paying money to the mormon church? I find it inconsistant that
one can say pay tithing and you will get blessings, but only on the lord's
time. I have seen families who pay a full tithe be decimated financially to the
point of no return. Perhaps if god is so quick to collect the money, he could be
equally quick on giving the blessings back. Tithing is all about money, and
doesn't have a thing to do with god, in my opinion.
I pay tithing but I don't keep a tally sheet with respect to commandments
kept and blessings received. I let the Lord do that. All I know is that though
many trials and challenges have come into my life, some particularly difficult,
I can say I have always managed to somehow endure and work through them, and I
truly consider myself to be very blessed.
Life, with whatever rewards or tribulations it may present, occurs. It is a
sequence of events, be they happenstance, chance, or something we or someone
else creates or influences. It is not, I believe, the product of a divine being
intervening in the natural laws and order of things in order to provide us with
a desired outcome because we have contributed to alleviate said deity's
cashflow problem. Let's face it, the people who actually spend this money
are human no greater than you and I. God, from what I've observed in
contemporary media and religion, is watching football, not micromanaging the
books. This specific issue is the one where Hitchens got it most right; this is
where religion manifests itself best as the record of a successful con job.
Malachi 3:8-12 is the answer to a question posed in verse 7."Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances,
and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the
Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?"Tithing
includes the principle of "return". A way to help us return to God when
our hearts have not been close or our lives not obedient. It helps us to use
our treasure to put our hearts where they ought to be. The promise in verse 7
is that as we return to God, he will return to us and we will find the blessings
we once had. Here He speaks to the people. But I believe that applies to us as
individuals as well.
We live the law of tithing, we receive a ton of blessings, in fact there
isn't room enough to receive them, these blessings often come as trials,
like not having enough money.
Sometimes we make the mistake of determining what blessing we need and want and
expecting that the Lord will grant the same. We always receive the blessings we
need; we may fail to recognize it as such.
The law of tithing comes from God through his prophets. Those who obey it will
be blessed. In what way or at what time we know not. But those blessings will
come. The Church does not extort. It is done freely through our agency--not
I echo the first comments above. Blessings for complete obedience sometimes
come quickly and sometimes come slowly. We have experienced both. The
"slowly" was difficult, and the expected blessings did not come.
However, the blessings that did come later have proven to be better than we
expected. Let me be clear though, we have been monetary blessed at times, and
other times money has not been the blessing but the means to care for our
family's needs emotionally, spiritually and physically have. A
long period of unemployment finally necessitated a difficult career change from
a monetarily abundant career to a much less lucrative one. However, this
necessary change brought more time with our children, especially for my husband.
The increased availability of their dad has been a strength to our teenage sons
in particular in a way that never would have been possible before. It also
brought so much more contentment and enjoyment to my husband than his former
career. These things we never would have guessed.As we obey
commandments it is wise to accept the timing and blessings of the Lord.
What is meant by the "law if tithe"? I do believe this is a man made
law. I do not believe Jesus ever said it is a law that one must tithe. I believe
his message was of giving of oneself. That can take many forms. IMVHO the law of
tithe was created by humans and is on equal footing with extortion.
I have come to recognize that paying a faithful tithing has more to do with the
love in our home that it could ever do with our family income. The Windows of
Heaven showering blessings on a marriage are far more potent than anything else.
I know hundreds of non-tithe-paying people who get "blessings"
immediately/constantly, and many payers who seem to never get a break. I have
lived both sides of this one and it's working better for me now (not
faithfully paying) than it ever has. Just offering up my personal
experience as testimony.
Paying tithes has nothing to do with money, it has everything to do with faith.
It is a test of one's faith whether he/she is with the Lord in both hard
and bad times. The promised blessings of this law are true, I have witnessed
them in my own life
Some may wonder: "what if the full tithe is paid, and the expected blessing
does not come?" The answer is the same with this or any commandment, we must
wait upon the Lord. Elder Robert D. Hales October 2011 Conference Address was
particularly insightful on the subject. Anyone suffering tribulation, as we all
do in one form or another, ought to read it frequently.
One of the problems with trying to come up with a cause/effect relationship
between obedience and blessings is that of specificity. That is, connecting
action "A" as a cause of expected/hoped for/needed result/blessing
"B".That is the kind of cause/effect relationship that is
the basis of the empirical method but ought not to be the basis of determining
the predictability of actions on our part producing actions on God's
part.Through sometimes hard to endure and accept personal
experience, I've discovered that the time line and real versus perceived
value of what we **think** we need/want is often NOT what is **really** in our
best interest. Which, of course, is what God knows and seeks to bring to
pass.For me, I try to live according to what I think are the best
principles and practices in the expectation that it will get me headed,
generally, in the right direction, and that in doing so it will give me the best
odds of achieving the ends I hope for. In other words, I'm not expecting a
specific cause/effect relationship between obedience and blessing. If nothing
else, that reduces the disappointment.
There are times when these blessings do not come immediately. There will be
times of trial, and part of that trial may be to pay a full tithe &
offerings with no blessings. To think that doing 'a' will result
immediately in 'b' sets you up for disappointment. God will do what
He knows to be in our best interest and sometimes that means a delayed blessing,
and by delayed I mean possibly for years. When it happens, as it will to every
person in their life, it will try your faith as never before.As with
all commandments, paying tithing should be about living the law out of desire to
be obedient, not because we want blessings.