For the past 60 years BYU has focused on the quality of undergraduate education.
That is primarily why they are ranked #62. Most universities depend on Indirect
Cost Recovery (ICR) attached to research grants. Those research grants do not
improve undergraduate education. In fact they can detract because the faculty
are doing research while classes are often taught by their graduate assistants.
The dream of most high end researchers is to be relieved of undergraduate
teaching. BYU has less than 1/10th the government grants that Utah has, but is
ranked 7th among major universities for patents and publications per each grant
The reality is all of this matters very little. For employers what is under the
"work experience" portion of your resume means a lot more than what is
under the "education" portion.
@TwoForFlinchingTake it up with Forbes. Perhaps they will accept
your response and reverse the ranking. But I think not.
wwookieThe article stated that the ranking formula was tweaked to
place greater emphasis on graduation rates. I poked around the data published on
US News' website for a few minutes and saw that BYU's graduation rates
were much lower than the schools with similar overall rankings. I didn't do
a formal test but the differences are noticeable. Feel free to check for
yourself and let me know if I what I saw was incorrect. I read a
study a couple years back that found BYU was #5 for undergraduates who go on to
get Ph.Ds (google "BYU is Top-5 launching pad for PhDs" and you can see
for yourself). The other schools on the list include Berkley, Cornell, Michigan,
Texas, UCLA, Wisconsin, Illinois, Penn State, and Harvard. Utah State
ranked #3 on a similar list looking at percent of students that go on to
graduate school (google "10 Colleges That Lead to Grad School"). I can't say how much Utah universities rankings are affected by the
large number of missionaries. Maybe BYU could jump into the top 50, maybe Utah
the top 100. I wish there was a way to find out.
@RBBI attended a top-five law school. I can tell you that prestige
and pedigree matter a significant amount in law and other professional
disciplines like specialty medicine, banking, consulting, and accounting. Around
80% of my class routinely obtained top-level jobs making, and the others ended
up working in prestigious government and public interest jobs. In the same time
period only five percent of BYU and U students achieved the same type of jobs.
This isn't to say that BYU or U students wouldn't do well in the same
jobs we obtained. The reality of a market economy is that grads from top-tier
schools are much more attractive to the clients of employers. In a sense a
demanded input for successful organizations by their clients is pedigree. I
would assume that the bad economy has magnified this reality.
@ SSmith"according to Forbes, [BYU] ranks higher than Utah as a
research institution."Forbes is wrong.
Note to u....Utah is not tier one anything!
How could an independent school be ranked higher than a PAC 12 Power conference
@One Angry Salebarn Worker - one problem you have with UVU is it has a
non-competitive admissions policy, everyone gets in. In the scheme of things,
that really doesn't matter. Ohio State has largely been an open
university, and yet still has a decent reputation academically and
athletically.I personally love that the UVU teams come out and
compete with Duke programs from time to time. But if you look at the list
carefully, there are many schools that were not ranked fro one reason or
another.And yes, the rankings are imperfect, but it is one factor
that could and is used by parents and kids when they evaluate what school to
spend their money at.
@alt134You are correct that Utah is a Tier 1 school, as are all PAC
12 schools with the exception of Arizona (this is according to the Carnegie
Classification of Institutions of Higher Education, which is generally
considered the standard in this area). There are 108 Universities lised in the
first Tier. You are wrong, however, about BYU, which is listed in the second
Tier of 99 schools. It is fairly common knowledge that BYU is lower on this
list simply because they take very little research money from outside sources
compared to other universities; so their volume of research is lower. It is
also fairly common knowledge that the quality of research coming out of BYU is
exceptional.I guess the conclusion we can draw, and I think anyone
who has been to college would agree, is that quantity of research does not
necessarily correlate to quality of education. I'm not saying that the two
cannot coexist, but I think it is no uncommon that professors who are dedicated
to research are not the greatest teachers.Regardless, the PAC can
beat the "research institution" drum all day long, but are you actually
I predict the ratings for all of the instate schools will rise as the number of
LDS missionaries who attended college prior to missions decreases due to the
missionary age change. Part of some ratings is based on how many students
graduate in 4-5 years from first enrollment.
Hidden in this snare of BYU-UU combat fodder is the news that UVU didn’t
even register a blip on the academic performance radar. You mean to tell me
that with more students on its campus than BYU, UU and USU, and tons of state
money poured into its operation that Utah Valley University can’t even get
a mention? Maybe we should take a real close look at what’s going on down
(continued)Putting a greater emphasis on graduation rate has a greater
impact in Utah due to the number of missionaries (it takes two years longer to
graduate). The increased emphasis on retention (now 22.5 percent) also hurts
Utah schools as many women drop out to become mothers (but many return later to
complete their degrees, and this isn’t factored in). Undergraduate
academic reputation is largely calculated by how the nation’s best high
schools rank colleges. It just so happens that most of the “best”
HS on U.S. New’s list are on the East coast, so they’d
understandably give Utah schools lower rankings. Ultimately, all
three Utah schools provide a higher quality education than their rankings
While I’m grateful for having attended or taught at three of the top 75
ranked schools, most academics consider these rankings a joke. Indeed, just
yesterday in a faculty meeting we briefly discussed how ridiculous it is that
several of the top ranking schools pander to these rankings by changing things
within their institutions to beef up their profile while simultaneously lowering
the quality of actual student learning and achievement. Significantly, the methodology applied this year hurts all three of the Utah
schools. The three greatest factors (graduation rates, retention, academic
reputation) are all negatively impacted by the Utah culture thereby unjustly
resulting in lower ranks. (continued)
The US News and World Report rankings should be viewed cautiously. It is not the
BCS of academic institutions. Its methodology emphasizes factors that favor
private universities, such as endowments, alumni giving, and student-faculty
ratios. Other reputable ranking systems of universities (i.e., Times Higher
Education Ranking)paint a very different picture for BYU, the University of
Utah, and other universities. Of course, publishing these rankings would not
tease out the BYU-Utah-USU rivalry comments as noted in these posts; hence, they
likely will be found in the D-News.
@Frozen Chosen", but the PAC 10 picked Utah over BYU because it's
academics were so much better."Utah is a tier 1 research
institution which is what the PAC cared about. BYU is not. Utah's ranked
85th in the ARWU world rankings. BYU is between 300-400. The ARWU rankings are
more heavily focused on research and natural sciences.
WOW, BYU is twice as good as Utah? Kind of makes sense
BYUAlum,I am not sure where you are getting your numbers. Here are
the top 10 Universities by the number of applicants. UCLA:
61,564 UC San Diego: 53,448 St. John’s University (NY):
52,972 UC Berkeley: 52,966 California State
University—Long Beach: 49,287 UC Irvine: 49,287 UC Santa
Barbara: 49,008 Drexel University: 48,450 UC Davis: 45,806 Pennsylvania State University—University Park: 45,502The
Y has an acceptance rate of 54%. (UCLA is 25%) If it had more applications than
UCLA, the Y would be admitting over 31,000 new freshman a year.
I suppose it was Lenny Gomes who best described the relationship between
academics and sports and what you get from one university vs. the other when he
said “All those guys think that’s all there is to life. But when
I’m making $50-60,000 a year, they’ll be pumping my gas." I
left off the last part of the quote because it was not very nice.
Shortly before I went to law school they did a survey of top law schools.
Princeton was ranked No. 5. I would have loved to have gone there but I could
not get in - mostly because Princeton does not have a law school.
"Reputation" is a weak indicator of how good of an education you are
really getting.All of these studies focus of different factors which
may be totally meaningless to your education. For example, a recent study
ranked the U as the 85th best university in the world and BYU did not make the
list. The U gets more than 5 times as many patents per year than the Y and has
significantly more research opportunities. But how does that affect you if you
are an education or business major?Alumni giving rates, the size of
an endowment and average GPA of entering students have little to do with the
education you receive. Yes you can buy "reputation" but spending $200k
to get a name really just shows that you are not that smart.
"You're correct. Of course, since one of the reasons the (then) PAC 10
gave for not inviting BYU to join was that BYU didn't have the academic
chops of the other schools in the conference, it's always fun to see that
BYU matches up fairly well on that score."No one thinks BYU
doesn't have the academic chops. I haven't checked the list but, if
BYU sits at 62nd I'd guess only Stanford, Cal, USC, and UCLA sit in front
of them. The University of Washington might too but, none of the other schools
in the league are very strong.The Pac 10 simply doesn't want a
religious school in their liberal league and further doesn't want to work
around the Sunday issue. I cannot blame them for the latter.
per DKWalser...Agreed. Just like power rankings on espn, perception
of post secondary institutions is like a Jr High election.
Just saying because I went there, loved it, and graduated.....from BYU. It will
always be #1 no matter what poll you might read. More students try to get into
the Y than any other school other than Harvard. I read that stat in the DN a
while back, and I believe it!
re: SLCWatchWho let the dogs out!?
Wow Utah State, wow.
Like I always say, Utah State is a joke!
SLCWatch...You will take great satisfaction as you sit and reminisce with UNLV
graduates from the Jerry Tarkanian era, I am sure they are proud Alumni also...
Please stop using the word academics when what you mean is the reputation you
are buying. Palmetto, where are you getting your info, or did you
just make it up?
"I work from time to time for the 7th ranked school. I graduated with my
jd\mba from one of the nations top 10 public schools. Both wonderful places. But
after graduation day, it means absolutely nothing. In my job the vast majority
of people I work with have advanced degrees - some from some very highly ranked
schools - and some from some rather ordinary schools. I can tell you.... impact
and contribution have little correlation to what school they went to. Little to
none."That's correct. However, decades after graduation,
people still judge professionals by what school they went to. Going to a
"ranked" school may not mean a better education, but it often means a
better reputation -- which can translate into more and better job opportunities.
And, of course, it's not just the quality of the school, but the quality
(and reputation) of the program that matters.
@SLCWatch. I guess if your success in your educational pursuit is based on
'an' athletic team's success, you may be right. I have yet to
see, on a resume, a football team mentioned unless that person actually
participated on that team vs. being a spectator.
No surprise here. BYU is the best value in the region for education. It ranks
higher than Utah in ACT entrance scores and, according to Forbes, ranks higher
than Utah as a research institution.
slcwatch...I know what you mean, BYU has so many conf. championships, National
championships, All americans, Heisman trophy winner, National player of the
year, their football team isn't sitting home in December watching tv, on
and on and on...It's sick, BYU is just sick how it puts to shame the rest
of the state. And now to add to their athletic prowess, they are
ranked massively ahead of everyone else as just a flat out good school to get an
Just imagine where these schools could be if the ratings didn't place so
much emphasis on the 4 and 6-year graduation rates. Maybe with young men going
on missions before starting college we'll be able to jump in the rankings.
But, but, but the PAC 10 picked Utah over BYU because it's academics were
so much better.Yeah right!
"Custom Model Railroads HO Vertical Lift Bridge Single Track Kit"I am sorry.... this has what to do with what? Universities are about
their sporting programs? Huh?I work from time to time for the 7th
ranked school. I graduated with my jd\mba from one of the nations top 10 public
schools. Both wonderful places. But after graduation day, it means absolutely
nothing. In my job the vast majority of people I work with have advanced
degrees - some from some very highly ranked schools - and some from some rather
ordinary schools. I can tell you.... impact and contribution have little
correlation to what school they went to. Little to none.You have
fantastically motivated bright people from 100 plus ranked schools... and you
have impossible to work with types from top 10 schools... and viva-versa. Its
what you do with the knowledge learned that drives your income potential. Not
some latin recognition.
Not surprised to see usu slip. Back when I was searching for grad schools, the
school had an acceptance rate of 99%, which means almost anyone who applies gets
in. I've yet to hear one person I personally know say their undergrad
programs are harder than high school. The other two big boy schools
are really rigorous and they have many nationally ranked programs. usu needs to
find a way to change its image of being a farming school sprinkled with a little
engineering etc. before it will really take off.
Academic success?Selectivity is not a measure of academic success.
And neither is graduation rates for that matter. Average gre or lsat
scores at end of college would be a much better measure of academic success.classic example of GIGO
What it means to an incoming athlete is that one school is respected more than
those below it. One degree may have greater value on the job front, a grad
school may place greater empathis on a degree from one school over another. The
vast majority of college athletes are not going to play professional football
making the earning a degree the most important goal and playing football as just
a way to pay tuition, books, housing and food. When I played at Arizona St in
the late 70's we had a large group pf guys who were able to move up but an
even larger group who prepared to move up, putting their degree second. Without
a degree and eligability they had nothing for their 4-5 years. Those are the
folks managing 7-11's working in fast foods, construction, unless they did
go back and finish. BYU has a more competitive academic situation and an strict
honor code, both scare away many kids. The Cougars are further limited on who
they can recruit based on HS grades and test scores. To think this and other
rankings play no role in athletics is a ridiculas comment.
@SLCWatchI'm not sure exactly what your point is regarding
athletics and academics, but I'm happy to see someone recognizes that there
is very little correlation. Now if only Utah fans would stop claiming academic
superiority as a reason for their invitation to the PAC 12...
@sports are greatIt's kinda relative because there are other ranking
lists that put Utah ahead of BYU (those tend to focus more on research). Each
university has its' own strengths.
"None of which means squat as far as any of the schools atheletic teams go.
Just thought we ought to make that clear before everyone starts kicking that
poor dog."You're correct. Of course, since one of the
reasons the (then) PAC 10 gave for not inviting BYU to join was that BYU
didn't have the academic chops of the other schools in the conference,
it's always fun to see that BYU matches up fairly well on that score.
None of which means squat as far as any of the schools atheletic teams go. Just
thought we ought to make that clear before everyone starts kicking that poor
"BYU and the University of Utah enjoyed modest gains, while Utah State
University experienced a significant slip in the 2014 rankings of the best
colleges in America released Tuesday U.S. News & World Report.Within the National Universities category BYU ranked 62nd and Utah checked in
at 121st — up six and four spots, respectively, from last year.
Conversely, Utah State slid 16 places to 190th."It's nice
to see BYU and Utah climbing up the academic success ladder, but what's
going on at Utah State?
Is 62, 121, or 190 better?