I was sad that the BSA chose to cave in to a homosexual agenda, and even more
disappointed when the LDS and Catholic Churches continued to support them. The
apostles can preach that homosexuality is a sin, but when the Church continues
to support the BSA, then the message that is heard is something entirely
What is the LDS church going to do when BSA takes that next step? I agree that
you should not kick a boy our who is being moral regardless of who his is
attracted to. I would bet, however, that within 5 years the LGBT community will
be back at it insisting on openly gay scout masters or that scouts be allowed to
stay in even if they are acting on their attraction. Likewise, the atheist
zealots will be insisting on the removal of God scouting like they are doing in
England. Fortunately, my son is done with scouting. How confident are you
that the BSA won't cave next time? They came very close this go around.
What about the rights of non-gay people?
I just read A Trail Life's Statement of Faith and Values wherein they are
quite specific about what I understand to be Trinitarianism, a confusing and
unclear construct which is supposed to be fundamental to all "real"
Christians according to some. I wonder if this ambiguous statement is meant to
keep Mormons and other Christians who have a slightly different take on the
Godhead out of the club. Of course the ATL supporters can do as they like but
given the Church's passion and long-standing, strong support for The Boy
Scouts of America, this seems to be loosing proposition for them. That is
especially true when one considers that both groups exclude practicing
homosexual leaders and those who promote the homosexual lifestyle but
conditionally allow boys who suffer same sex attraction. As it stands in the
BSA, each troop is free to include or exclude worship as they see fit so what is
the big difference - except for the mandatory acceptance of a narrow definition
of the Godhead?
The Economist:So since there have been drastic changes in
society's views on homosexuality, has the suicide rate drastically
decreased? No. I seriously doubt that society's views on
homosexuality was the sole or even primary cause of these suicides. The rate
has remained the same.
@Contrariuser,I agree with you that anti-Same-Sex-Attraction
rhetoric kills, but also for some different reasons. Young men and women who
experience Same-Sex Attraction and grow up in this Anti-Gay Society, such as the
young men we're talking about in this article with Scouting, are more
likely to commit suicide and live homelessly. Utah leads the country for the
number of teenage gay suicides and homelessness. Much of this is due to
negative attitudes against homosexuals that have existed within the Mormon
Church, such as those publicized by some of the General Authorities in the past
and especially in the book, Miracle of Forgiveness. Most all of these attitudes
have been contradicted in the new church Web site, MormonsandGays.org. This was
the result of a study that showed this negativity does no good at all and that
showing love and support of gay youth accomplishes much more. Most importantly,
if showing love and support will save a young person's life, it is worth
more than money can buy.
@jsf --"the individuals still exist and so does the violent
rhetoric they used. "Are you seriously trying to compare one
small and short-lived group of angry gay men to a worldwide pattern of
intimidation, violence, and murders? SERIOUSLY??Does this mean that
Warren Jeffs really DOES represent the whole Mormon religion?;-)"...s the same as claiming all same-sex-marriage opponents equates
to vile individuals who commit crimes against the lgbt community."Fortunately, I haven't claimed any such thing.What I HAVE
done is point out the FACT that anti-gay opinions kill.Every time
somebody says homosexuals are "sinning" -- or "disgusting" -- or
"perverted" -- or "anti-family" -- or "anti-Christian"
-- EVERY time somebody says any of those things, or something similar --
they're reinforcing an image of homosexuals as "other" or "less
than" or "inferior".And the reinforcement of that image
-- that subhumanization -- is what makes so many people think that it's
okay or even DESIRABLE to bash gay people. That constant diminishment of
homosexuals' humanity is what makes violence and discrimination against
them acceptable.I'll say it again, and I'll keep saying
it: anti-gay opinions kill.
@Contrariusester They may have disbanded, but the individuals still exist and
so does the violent rhetoric they used. You can not say the hate speech does
not exist because this group disbanded. But claiming all lgbt are part of the
same hate speech is the same as claiming all same-sex-marriage opponents equates
to vile individuals who commit crimes against the lgbt community.
@steve"This is the logical conclusion of the victim mentality"?
how so and what does it have to do with this conversation?
I have to roll my eyes at this reverence over Gandhi. The man argued that the
Jews should line up & be slaughtered by the Nazis. This is the logical
conclusion of the victim mentality, folks. I find more comfort in the Christian
idea that we're all children of God.
@RedWings1) All you have to do is google about the religious
American "Christians" going to Uganda and helping craft their anti-gay
laws; laws that ALLOW killing of gays and you'll find why we distrust
relgious people so much.2) I couldn't care less if you
don't "embrace that and celebrate a choice they made that is against my
beliefs". I do expect you to allow us the same privileges as citizens that
you enjoy.3) "Why do my beliefs matter so little to you when you
expect me to sanction yours?". Again, I couldn't care less about your
beliefs, as long as you're not using them to discriminate against others
you disagree with.
I don't really see why Trail Life USA was created, their stance on Gay Boy
Scouts is the same as the BSA stance and the LDS church's stance: if you
don't act on your homosexuality, you are more welcome to join. So not sure
why this new organization was created...but I am a proud eagle scout and always
@Social Mod --"history has shown a pattern of pro-gay attitudes
killing off societies."Baloney.Ancient Greece and
Rome both survived for more than 1000 years each, all while encouraging
homosexual relations. In fact, Rome didn't fall until a couple hundred
years AFTER homosexual marriages were outlawed there. Please name
ANY society which has been killed off by "pro-gay attitudes".@donn --"...Hetero-phobes were very aggressive towards
Christians and would block the church entrance on occasions."First -- don't equate "Christian" with anti-gay or pro-straight.
Many Christian denominations are already happy to perform gay marriages.And second -- since when is blocking a church entrance equivalent to
murder??How many people do you think have ever been beaten or killed
just for the "sin" of being straight?@jsf --"Bash Back!"1. Bash Back! disbanded two years ago;2. They were about PROTESTS, not violence; and3. They never
killed anybody, nor even injured anyone AFAIK.@RedWings --"you seem fine in profiling all religious people as gay-killing hate
mongers."Many gay people are religious. Seems YOU are the one
who is profiling -- specifically, profiling pro-gay people as anti-Christian.
I think that offering alternative scouting organizations to those that feel that
they do not fit in the large monopolistic organizations will likely strengthen
scouting overall and expand the number of youth served by scouting. Perhaps this
could serve as a model for other groups that would like to offer children a
scouting experience more suited to their own ideals.Still, if Trail
Life USA is patterned after American Heritage Girls, its footprint will likely
remain small. After 18 years of operation, AHG's membership is less than
0.7% of that of Girl Scouts USA. This approach hardly seems like a challenge to
the viability of the BSA.
I don't want to hear from Christians that they are being marginalized.
They are doing it themselves. And while doing so are limiting their childrens
life experiences and not preparing them for the real world they will be
entering. I think the BSA continues to do so.
@ContrariusesterSo, because some extremists act completely out of
line and against the laws of the land, you would supress freedom of thought and
expression? Funny, that is what the left usually fights against.Again, you proove the hypocrisy that exists with the left. Police cannot
"profile" blacks or Muslims, but you seem fine in profiling all
religious people as gay-killing hate mongers. I may be against gay marriage and
its attack on religious freedom, but I would never think of killing a gay
person. We are all God's children.If someone wants to live a
secular life and act out on their same-sex attraction, that is ultimately their
business. My problem is that the LGBT expect me to embrace that and celebrate a
choice they made that is against my beliefs. Why do my beliefs matter so little
to you when you expect me to sanction yours?
@Contrariusester, "Pro-gay opinions don't kill people. Anti-gay
opinions do.That's a huge difference -- and a huge justification for
recognizing that one side is filled with true hatred of the other?go
see the likes of Bash Back! and other violent gay activist groups, that threaten
their opposition with threats of death and other violent acts.
@redwingsDoes Brown vs the board of education ring any bells? A few quotes by King and Gandhi “Judicial decrees may not change
the heart, but they can restrain the heartless.” MLK“Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such
a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is force to
confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be
ignored.” MLK “The law may not be able to make a man love me,
but it can keep him from lynching me.” MLK“Freedom is never
voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.”
MLK“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your
Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Gandhi @ocial Mod
Fiscal Conthe social values that believed the native American was an
lesser race and had no right to their lands or their lives? that value?
A young man growing up in Scouting, and perhaps the Mormon Church, can have a
very difficult and painful experience. A young person has been indoctrinated
since childhood that they need to serve a mission, get married young in the
temple, have a lot of kids, and magnify their callings, among other things, to
get to the Celestial Kingdom. This can deeply traumatize a young homosexually
oriented adult, who has to face that getting heterosexually married may be very
bad advise. Some do get married, but most of these marriages lead to
unhappiness, spouses feeling unfulfilled, and end up in tragic divorce. A young
adult in Scouting and in the LDS Church needs to feel welcomed and given a
message that a life of Celibacy can lead to happiness, too. Other religions
practice celibacy including Catholic and Buddhist Monks, Nuns, etc. I've
found happiness in celibacy and have been celibate for many years. Unless the
day comes that the prophet receives revelation allowing Gay Marriage in the
church, the church should give a positive message of celibacy to parents as an
alternative. We should offer them love and support, and help them through there
@Phranc and @spring streetThe concern is not that we are the
victims. It's the moral standards our society was built on which are the
victims of the LGBT agenda.@Contrariusester"Pro-gay
opinions don't kill people" Probably true, but history has shown
a pattern of pro-gay attitudes killing off societies.
@RedWings --"Thank you for proving my point. Apparently the left
are the guardians of what "oppression" is, and therefore can make the
determination for society who is worthy of tolerance and who is not? "Anti-gay opinions KILL PEOPLE. **That** is oppression. Civil rights for
homosexuals is **literally** a matter of life or death.There's
an article in the DN today about a high school kid in California who was
threatening to go to school to shoot "the blacks / and mexicans / halfbreeds
/ atheists / french / gays / liberals."THAT is what we're
fighting against.Why in the WORLD would anyone want to tolerate
attitudes that lead to this sort of threat?Gay people in the US are
still **eight times** more likely to be the victims of violent crimes than white
people.In some countries -- like Russia -- violent anti-gay mobs are
egged on by the government.In some countries homosexuality is still
**punishable by death**.That is NOT something that anyone should be
asked to tolerate.Anti-gay opinions kill. Pro-gay opinions do
not.I'll tolerate the one that doesn't kill, thanks.
@Contrariusester, "Pro-gay opinions don't kill people. Anti-gay
opinions do.That's a huge difference -- and a huge justification for
recognizing that one side is filled with true hatred of the other?When I lived in San Francisco, near golden-gate park, the Hetero-phobes were
very aggressive towards Christians and would block the church entrance on
@ spring street: " Do any of you think that most of the members of the civil
rights movement was worried about showing tolerance of heir oppressors."Have you ever bothered to read any of Martin Luther King Jr.'s
sermons or writings? Your comment indicates you have not. Ghandi and MLK
advocated and practiced passive means to change society, showing respect and
love toward all in it.The LGBT want rights and control so they can
oppress religious groups who disagreed with them. This is why they use the
court system, bullying of those who donate to support Prop 8, and by calling
people who disagree with them "bigots". There is no tolerance in that
movement for anyone but those who agree with them. The pessure on the BSA was
not to open it to gay kids, but to destroy it for fighting and winning court
battles in past.
@ spring street: "since when in our history have we been expected to show
tolerance towards the Oppressors?"Thank you for proving my
point. Apparently the left are the guardians of what "oppression" is,
and therefore can make the determination for society who is worthy of tolerance
and who is not? This is the core hypocrisy of the left. Tolerance
is only for those they agree with. Since I choose to obey God and follow His
commandments, I am labeled a "bigot" and marginalized by the left.
I loved the song, Dear Abby by John Prine. You have no complaints. You are what
you are and you ain't what you ain't. So listen up buster and listen
up good. Stop wishing for bad luck and stop knocking on wood. Singed, Dear Abby.
This new organization will be "gay-free" up to and until the first boys
start joining. Then it, like the rest of society, will have gay people in
it.As some one who knew he was gay from a young age and hid the
truth, I can tell you that policies such as this do nothing but intimidate and
harm, giving good kids nowhere to turn for help. A far better
approach is to let kids know they are loved, and that honesty is a good
thing.It turned out to be so in my case, and the story had a good
ending, complete with love and acceptance by those that mattered most to me.
For others, not so much. And that is very sad.
@Ted...I'm sorry if the Eagle Scouts that you know are a lazy bunch of
losers. The ones I've had the pleasure to know have worked hard to attain
that level of success. I would be happy to give an Eagle Scout the benefit of
the doubt if he had included that accomplishment on his resume.
It is unfortunate that so many parents are fearful of homosexuality and
homosexuals that they find BSA an unacceptable organization for their sons.
Religion can step in and wreck nearly everything.
Ted, I know of an Eagle Scout who spent dozens of hours planning and doing the
take down of a historic cabin which was moved to another location (long story).
There were adults involved, but the young man and his contemporaries numbered
the logs, expended a lot of energy and worked on days when the temperatures were
90 to 100. This cabin was a part of the Santa Fe Trail, and the logs are old and
fragile so that posed another difficulty. Yet the job was done, and now it is
being reassembled as a part of another scout's Eagle Project. The boys have
learned about 1800s log cabin construction, effects of water and time, how to
reassemble logs around windows and a door and how to reinforce an old structure
without taking away from its antiquity. I haven't covered many of the
details of this project because it was too hot for me to observe very long!Many history preservers of the community are so pleased that this project has
I love it! Someone is still inspired on the side of Jesus Christ.
@daniteno actually for the first time in two decades I feel like I finally
recognize my beloved boy scouts again. I feel like i can finally pull my eagle
scout out and show it with pride again.
So I get the whole join us for adventure and leadership part. They are going to
do activities and groups like this certainly like to lead others but how exactly
do you join someone for character?
As a side note question,Is anyone else struggling with "Friends
of Scouting"? I've supported in the past and am an Eagle Scout but feel
as if things have changed. I feel uncomfortable donating. Anyone else?
What I don't like about the BSA policy is the phrase "openly gay."
What does that mean? Is it someone that suffers from same gender attraction, and
is open about the temptation to be strengthened and help others going through
the same thing? Or does it mean someone that would attend a pride parade and
thinks homosexuality is ok,but has not yet had sex? There is a big difference
@procuradorfiscalwhat specific discrimination against church members
or church believes? Have church member been killed for no other reason then
being church members by the gay community? Gay people have often been beaten
and killed for being gay. Has the church' belief's been outlawed
l;like gay marriage? the couple examples of vandalize were wrong and should not
have occurred but to claim you are a victim is laughable.Do any of
you really believe that the founding fathers were worried about showing
tolerance towards king George. Do any of you think that most of the members of
the civil rights movement was worried about showing tolerance of heir
oppressors. Do you think Gandhi cared if he offended the government of India?
This Idea that we need to show tolerance towards oppression is silly.
Just now I got an email (because of my involvement in the BSA at the district
level) about a huge celebration on Oct 29 in the conference center celebrating
100 years of LDS in scouting. Council leaders from all over the country are
invited to attend. And it will be broadcast, and LDS church buildings all over
the USA to help recruit scouts, not just to LDS units, but to all units. Bottom
line, the Church is still supporting the BSA.One comment mentioned
15 yr olds who get their eagle but their parents did all the work. Sad that that
can happen, but many times the youth really do the stuff. I certainly did, back
in 1985, but I also credit those who helped me.
Re: "As Phranc says you are not a victim!"Well, there you
have it! Phranc says it. What more do we need?There's certainly
no victimhood involved in the vile discrimination against Church members, Church
property, and Church beliefs in the wake of Prop 8. It was simply a case of
evildoers getting a taste of their own.Just like Kristallnacht.Move along. No hate here to see. Just "victims," victimizing
those with whom they disagree.Dr. Goebbels would be so proud!
@sashabill --"I am forced to conclude, therefore, that
"Hate" simply consists of any opinion or perspective which happens to be
different from that of liberals."Pro-gay opinions don't
kill people. Anti-gay opinions do.That's a huge difference --
and a huge justification for recognizing that one side is filled with true
hatred of the other.
@Phranc, It's funny how the politically correct community throws the word
"hate" around much the same way that right wing Protestants throw around
the word "cult." In both cases, they never seem to define their use of
those terms. I am forced to conclude, therefore, that "Hate" simply
consists of any opinion or perspective which happens to be different from that
of liberals.It's cleverly Orwellian how this works -- liberals
are forever talking about concepts like "tolerance",
"pluralism", "inclusiveness", and "diversity." When
someone (such as the Boy Sclouts or Chick Fil-A) puts them to the test and calls
on them to actually practice what they preach, however, then liberals whine that
they are "offended," and their commitment to those concepts
Even with the new BSA policy in place, lawsuits are going to come flooding in
from disenfranchised youth who feel discriminated against. It is impossible to
filter the activities, comments, stories and jokes that youth between the ages
of 12 and 18 will be saying. I would never consent to being a Scout Leader
under these circumstances, nor would I have allowed my four sons, all Eagle
Scouts, to participate under this new BSA policy. It represents enormous
exposure and risk for BSA sponsoring organizations and adult leaders.
"Tolerance is a relative term in society today, especially for the
left"since when in our history have we been expected to show tolerance
towards the Oppressors? As Phranc says you are not a victim!
this never ending whining by the oppressors is really getting old. I am sorry
you can longer openly oppress the gay community without people fighting against
it but guess what your rights have not been taken away you can still hate all
you want you just cant use the government or organizations that choose not to go
along with you to do it. YOU ARE NOT VICTIMS.
Good comment aggielove, but I've got a better one.I'm at my desk
ready for interviews. Young man has Eagle Scout on resume'I
have general knowledge of how hard moms and dads worked for these awards while
young man probably did next to nothing. 15 yr old stands in front of group with
deer in the headlights look on face to accept award. He may or may not get
job because award doesn't mean what it use too and this shows during the
If we Christians want to have an impact on society, we need to be a part of
society. A Christian's influence on mainstream organizations, education
and politics is much greater when we are a part of those things--not when we
break away. We live in a Republic which means we are all in this together and
we don't always get our way--even on really important issues.
So lets ask yourself this.Parents push there boy to this new program.Later on in life the boy puts this on his résumé that he is a eagle
of the trails system.The hiring manager is homosexual.By
doesn't get the job.
Probably stretches the definition of bullying to label a marginalized group a
bully for standing up to the real bullies. LGBT aren't guilty until proven
innocent. If the conservatives can't answer the question about why God
made folks whose gender identities and attractions are different from there own
and at least on the LDS side - our leaders have said they can't, then
forget tolerance, we should be preaching and living loving acceptance and if God
doesn't like it, hopefully He will let us know in more detail.
Re: ". . . who will teach them the correct groups to marginalize?"No worries there. Leftist and LGBT groups are out in full force to do
that.There's no shortage of liberals willing to suggest, to
anyone who will listen, who it's politically correct to hate
Comtrary to what some people think, the boy scouts of america are not an LDS
based group. The LDS only sponsor some of the units. Many religious groups
sponsor units. And the Scouting is and should be open to all boys.
Institutions are caving to feminism, gays and illegal aliens.What BSA and
the LDS Church are doing is predictable but disappointing.When they
sacrificed The Family Proclamation I knew we were in trouble.
I think the Boy Scouts should be congratulated on their new policy. They are
still NOT advocating the having of sex: homosexual or heterosexual. They are
only allowing a young man to be honest about experiencing a Same-Sex Attraction
without the threat of being kicked out. This new group is using the
"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" philosophy.As far as the
Mornon Church goes, the new BSA policy brings the Boy Scouts in line with the
Honor Code at BYU that discourages sex, but allows a student to be honest about
experiencing a Same-Sex Attraction. This has been amplified by General
Authorities who have made it clear that experiencing a Same-Sex Attraction and
being honest about it is NOT a SIN. The church has not changed it's policy
of only advocating sex within heterosexual marriage. The negativity and
accusations directed toward people experiencing a Same-Sex Attraction is wrong.
The message should only be what the church offers towards those with Same-Sex
Attraction and that is a life of Celibacy.
I don't know how this new organization is going to be any different from
the Boy Scouts. From the article it says, "Leaders say scouts who are gay
will be allowed in, as long as they don't promote or engage in any sexual
behavior that is a distraction to the program....Young men having same-sex
attractions will not be excluded from the organization, though they will not be
permitted to push a gay agenda or flaunt their sexual orientation."How is this any different from the Boy Scouts as it currently stands now?
Sorry if I don't see a difference between the two. It sounds like in
either organization all are welcome to join and all are expected to live by the
"Walk worthy"?? That's interesting, considering that conservative
Protestants are forever harping on how we are all inherently UNworthy.
With genome research still in its infancy, epigenetics and genetic expression is
attempting to answer the question of obligated homosexuality. Activists will not
wait when they have a political opening. The Supreme Court and others make
political decisions before medicine and science show us the results of the path
we will take. Theories abound from genes to a germ or pathogen in the
environment. We should not normalize homosexuality until more research is done.
Everyone, including Ralph, talks about tolerance and bullying. And yet it was a
huge bullying effort by the LGBT that forced the BSA to change. Talk about
tolerance, Ralph. The reason I won't write another check to the BSA is
because they let themselves be bullied. The only way to stop bullies is by
standing up to them.
Can thenew group deliver a quality experience at a lower cost? Scouting has
grown into a money pit. The merit badges are approaching $3 each. Council
camps are very expensive. Uniforms, equipment, etc. are all heavy burdens on
sponsoring organizations. And "Friends of Scouting" goes towards paying
six-figure salaries for professional scouters. It does not stay with the local
unit. Much in Scouting to admire. But Scouting COULD improve itself.
Thank God someone is willing to keep up the vigil against tolerance.If
boys can't learn intolerance from the Boy Scouts or their church, who will
teach them the correct groups to marginalize?
Re: "The new policy is inline with the LDS Church and deserves the support
of its members."So far.There's no question that
BSA National Council gave-in to pressure once, which leads to well-founded fears
it may do so again. I agree that the current policy is one we can cautiously
live with. Questions remain, however, and caution is certainly appropriate.This new scouting organization will probably not be our solution,
however, to BSA going further off the rails. Its claim to be modeled after the
American Heritage Girls gives reason to expect it will require a confession of
faith similar to theirs. It begins: "We believe that there is One Triune God
. . . ."While we might argue we can agree to such a statement,
assuming we get to define terms as we see fit, the organization would likely
disagree. Most likely, we will end up, like the Catholics, with an organization
of our own.Most LDS Scouters are resigned to an admission that the
real question is not whether, but rather, when.
The LDS church has their Faith in God and Duty to God programs which support the
BSA message of morality. It is too bad that the evangelicals are abandoning BSA
when BSA's reach is much further than their own congregations.
Everyone's "real identity" is as a son or daughter of God.
Homosexuality is not an identity - it is a behavior. Same-sex attraction can be
a part of someone's identity, but the behavior of acting out with someone
of the same sex is not. Since I struggled with SSA earlier in my life, and no
longer do, I can speak to the reality of this statement.I am sure
this group will be met with extreme attacks and backlash from the gay activist
groups. Tolerance is a relative term in society today, especially for the left.
I just wrote a check to the BSA for friends of scouting for triple the amount I
paid last year. I encourage all those that value scouting to do the same. The
new policy is inline with the LDS Church and deserves the support of its
I wonder how much harm will be done to young boys who will be forced to join
this organization by their parents then have to hide their real identity. How
very sad. Hopefully this group doesn't get a lot of support and it withers
and goes away.