"They want their behavior affirmed as normal and healthy, and they want
anyone who disagrees with that for whatever reason to be ostracized to the level
of Klansmen"This guy is downright offensive. Way to alienate me
as a member by inviting this guy to town.
This guy is awesome!
Churches appear afraid to say anything the left would disagree with leads me to
believe that we no longer have free exercise of religion, make no mistake it is
not conservatives that are against religious freedom. There are things
conservatives get wrong, but they don't try and make bakers, cake makers
and photographers do things they don't want to. There are many who want to
force conservatives to think and act as they command. They are quick to judge,
are narrow minded and try to destroy those who are different from them. We need
to get someone with integrity back in the White House to put an end to the
creeping tyrrany of those who hate conservatives.
Secularists believe in religious freedom... that's why Americans generally
support the secularists (rather than Mubarak, Morsi, or the military) in Egypt
It is refreshing for me to see someone with strong Southern Baptist roots be
able to meet and talk to LDS church leaders eye-to-eye in a civil matter. I
served my mission in Georgia and the Baptists there were extremely anti-mormon.
He was also spot on with his LGBT comment.
Religious people should be free to be as hateful and spiteful as they want to
be, regardless of how baseless it might be, I'll grant you that. No one
should be forcing them to do what they don't want to. After that, they can
crawl in their respective holes and hide, because society is moving on, and
they're not bringing anything to the table as religion to prove why society
should not move on without them.
"...(members of the) LDS Church have to get used to the fact that the
majority of evangelicals are not going to accept them...."Nothing new here. It's prophecy.
@HutteriteBecause all religious people are that way? I've come
across this over and over and over, that people who support things like gay
marriage and abortion tend to consistently whitewash and stereotype religious
people who are against gay marriage and abortion. Not all of them do it, but
enough have to lead me to believe that tolerance often really isn't what
they practice, it's just what they preach. I've been called
brainwashed and had my beliefs about traditional marriage likened to backwards
fanatic extremism. Is that tolerance? Nope. Is it even going to help you get
what you want? Nope. It's bigotry. Is there hypocrisy among religious
people? Yes. Is there hypocrisy among non-religious people? Yes. Can we still
get along without there being a slugfest every time a sensitive and important
issue comes up? Yes. It works both ways.
“The secularists are out to circumscribe our constitutional
rights.”Nonsense!Us secularists are out to ensure
your constitutional rights and to do everything in our power to ensure we never
live in a theocracy.So which do you want sir – the country our
Deist (agnostic and highly suspicious of organized religion) founders envisioned
or the theocracy you and many on the Right prefer. You can’t have both and
please stop conflating the two.Another provocative quote –
“It (religious freedom) could become a partisan political issue. If it
does ... it will be one of the two political parties’ fault.”It already is sir… and it’s the party I strongly suspect you
vote for every time.And another – “Let’s be very
clear, the gay and lesbian and transgender folks don’t want to live and
let live.”I think this little gem of backwards logic and
hypocrisy speaks for itself…One more – “I find
this to be a more self-absorbed generation.”Than baby
boomers?!! Oh please…
Reading this story and reading stories about the current Pope, I can't help
but notice the difference in tone between the two. One seems much more loving
and Christ-like than the other.
This guy is spot on.
I appreciate this guy's forthright approach to what are huge relevant
issues today. He is using his head and his heart, and is not afraid to speak the
truth. Thank you, Pastor Land.
Separation of church and state is a conveniently "misunderstood" concept
- especially to secularists.
Just think, what a terrible life it would if either group were in control of the
If you really believe religious freedom is under attack, you better petition for
the release of Warren Jeffs, after all he was just doing what he thought God
commanded.Or is it only religious freedom when its your religion?
"Richard Land, one of the most prominent leaders in the Southern Baptist
Convention, received two reprimands today over "racially charged"
comments he made on the Trayvon Martin shooting and over plagiarism charges
regarding a recent program on his radio show Richard Land Live!, which has been
canceled as a result. The trustee executive committee of the Ethics &
Religious Liberty Commission, where Land serves as president, issued the
reprimands today after conducting an investigation on comments made by Land
during a March 31 broadcast."(Christian Post 2012)
So we read what he says in Utah, I wonder what he says in Alabama? I've
found the typical "born again" to be much different than this gentleman.
Darrel,Do you fail to see the difference between raping a child, vs
teaching a child to avoid sexual promiscuity, abortion, gay relations, and to
ascribe to the 10 commandments?Do you fail to see the difference
between what Jeffs was teaching and did, and what Thomas S. Monson or this
evangelical leader is teaching?Just curious.
I doubt that any of the above commenters know more about the First Amendment
than the author:“The great enemy of the salvation of man, in
my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating Christianity
from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible
at schools. The Bible, when not read in schools, is seldom read in any
subsequent period of life… It should be read in our schools in preference
to all other books from its containing the greatest portion of that kind of
knowledge which is calculated to produce private and public temporal
happiness.” Fisher Ames (author of the First Amendment) “Why should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school
book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for
the Sacred Book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and probably if not
impresses in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind” John Adams
@Maggie"They want their behavior affirmed as normal and healthy,
and they want anyone who disagrees with that for whatever reason to be
ostracized to the level of Klansmen"I thought this was the most
insightful thing he said. He clarified perfectly what I have been struggling to
put into words. When you are attacked for disagreeing with the actions of
another as violently as happens today, it is not normal behavior. It reminds me
of how extremist muslims act when they perceive someone speaking badly of
Personal thought.I feel the real feelings of the right wing
evangelical community came out when Mitt Romney ran for President of the United
States.It is true the majority of them refer to us as
"Cultists". We support them "blindly" politically.Go
@ Hutterite:"[non]Religious people should [also] be free to be as
hateful and spiteful as they want to be, regardless of how baseless it might
I am concerned that the LDS, as a rule, are quite unconcerned about the
Constitution and freedom. We need to emphasize 1 Samuel 8, Mosiah 29, and
D&C 134 more often in church. I realize that church meetings should not be
used to endorse or criticize candidates or those holding political office,
because we are a 501(c)3 organization. However, freedom and free agency are
also an integral part of our religion.
Darrel,Huh? He is a convicted child abuser.
Secular simply means things and activities that aren't religious. You can
believe what you choose, you can worship what you choose, however if and when
you engage in the secular world (the economy, public schools, the government)you
don't have the right, constitutional or other to impose your religious
beliefs on those who don't believe as you do. You simply don't have
the right to offer a public service then exclude some from that service because
of some belief you have. Said differently, secularism is a
separation of church and state, and where this guy blatantly came out and said
Mormons will never be accepted, and at least one poster talked about the hatred
some in the south have for Mormons, I would think secularism might be a
principle you would endorse.
My issue is with the right's assertion that God forbids homosexuality. The
actual fact is that most homosexuals are born that way. Homosexuality has been
observed in animals from dogs, cattle and sheep to dolphins. The LDS position on
the subject is about right when they refer to same-gender attraction.Ask yourself the question: "If my church decided that heterosexuality were
a sin, could I become gay?". Didn't think so. The LDS and Catholic
position (newly minted my Pope Francis) that so long as gays abstain from sex,
they are not sinning. So a gay person is condemned to live in celibacy.As for contamination, do you really think that you as a fully wired
heterosexual could be forced to become gay? Nah.I feel for gays and
understand why they want to be able to marry and be free from persecution.
Marriage as a social contract, having the legal rights a spouses, seems ok to
me. But I'm opposed to the government forcing a religious institution to
marry gays if it is against their dogma. Let them find a church that will marry
them. Episcopal for one.
Richard Lands distinguished education should have included the meaning of the
word cult - "devotion to a person or thing" is from 1829. Cult. An
organized group of people, religious or not, with whom you disagree. [Rawson]Using the dictionary definition of cult, Christianity, Islam, Judaism,
Marxism, Keynesianism of any other set of beliefs with whom you disagree is a
cult. Generally it is used for its pejorative value and represents the users
ignorance, bias or inability to articulate.
"The greatest advantage an American child can have today is to be born into
a home with a mother and a father who are married to each other and who stay
married to each other. It trumps race, it trumps ethnicity, it trumps religion
... it trumps everything.
RE: Owl, Using the dictionary definition occult. secret or esoteric ,i.e.,The evidence of Joseph Smith's close connection to occultism and
Freemasonry. Masonry's influence on Mormonism and Joseph Smith has been
noted by a number of historians. Some of the areas impacted by Masonic lore and
ritual include the Book of Mormon, Joseph's personal life, and the LDS
@ BrentBot: Where did you get your information that Fisher Ames was the author
of the First Amendment?Nothing I have read about him indicates such
and everything I have read about the First Amendment places it squarely on
Madison and Jefferson.One thing I do know about Fisher Ames is that
he was in favor of a much stronger Federal government.
3rd tryRevised--deleted LDS polygamy partI can agree with Land
on one point:"A lot of young people have been driven away by what they
perceive as hypocrisy in the church, and there is a lot of it."I
would like to know WHY and for what purpose LDS Church leaders requested/invited
Richard Land to meet with them.Richard Land is an extremely
polarizing and divisive figure--who was disciplined by his own organization for
things he recently said and did.This just underscores troubling
tunnel vision about who we should be reaching out to.
@Tom in CA – “Separation of church and state is a conveniently
"misunderstood" concept - especially to secularists.”You got the first part right…Think of this way – all
the arguments the Religious Right uses to inject religion into the public arena
could be used with equal effectiveness by, say, Muslims in Dearborn MI to enact
Sharia Law. The best insurance against any degree of theocratic
public authority is the “wall of separation” envisioned by
Jefferson, and it is also the best guarantee that your own religious practices
will never be interfered with. Trust the genius of this prescient
Founder, and recall Kennedy’s quip about him when hosting a White House
dinner for a group of Nobel Prize winners.“I think this is the
most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been
gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas
Jefferson dined alone.”
Richard Land is a breath of fresh air.
@Truthseeker, if you truly are one, here's what he was reprimanded for
concerning Trayvon Martin: "Instead of letting the legal process
take its independent course, race mongers are anointing themselves judge, jury,
and executioners," Land said. "The rule of law is being assaulted by
racial demagogues, and it's disgusting, and it should stop."Land also stated a black man is "statistically more likely to do you harm
than a white man."I haven't researched the validity of his
last statement, but his first one certainly doesn't sound "racially
charged" to me. What he said was the truth. I don't know why he had to
apologize for the statements.
If only people would learn to keep their religion and hate to themselves then
maybe God could find a place on earth.
Blue Husky : heterosexuals sin and have since the beginning of time, so your
question is..what is the word, interesting. Prophets already say that
heterosexuals sin. We just need to stop sinning. The one question the gay
community always asks is, "Who would choose this lifestyle?" Well,
that question infers that community is not happy. People can choose
happiness. Do what makes you happy. If you are unhappy, you can change or
choose not to change. Animals don't take their own life, so there is a
big difference between us and animals.
It strengthens my faith in the future to know there are good, intelligent and
spiritual giants amongst us like Pastor Land. Kudos to our LDS Church leaders
for inviting this great Church leader to meet with them. Kudos to DSN for
printing his insightful and correct observations about so many important things.
His views on religious freedom and homosexual behavior are right on target and
very refreshing!. As he says the gay community doesn't want to live and
let live, they apparently want to force us to abandon our beliefs in biblical
and spiritual teachings. We need to stand up strong for religious freedom and
respectfully disagree with the gay community and not allow ourselves to be
bullied by them.
re:bw00dsLands comments were akin to "pot calling the kettle
black." "Land said. "This is being done to try to gin
up the black vote for an African-American president who is in deep, deep, deep
trouble for re-election and who knows that he cannot win re-election without
getting the 95 percent of blacks who voted for him in 2008 to come back out and
show they are going to vote for him again. "Land said those
using race to polarize the electorate are "playing with fire, and people are
going to get hurt.""This situation is getting out of
hand," Land said. "There is going to be violence. When there is violence
it's going to be Jesse Jackson's fault. It's going to be Al
Sharpton's fault. It's going to be Louis Farrakhan's fault, and
to a certain degree it's going to be President Obama's fault."(Associated Baptist Press)Statistically, overwhelmingly people are
most likely to be killed by someone of their own race. Blacks are most likely
to be killed by another black person, whites are most likely to be killed by
another white person.
It's ageist my better judgement to comment on this but since religion is
what you do religiously, hear goes. Morals are Intentions and Manners. Manners
is to be consider-it and appreciative. So to have good morals you need to have
good intentions and good manners.
This guy is awesome! He is smart, articulate, knows the battle he faces, and is
unafraid. On top of that he is open-minded, shown by his willingness to meet
with a traditional enemy. He isn't caving on his beliefs, but he is looking
for the common ground. What a refreshing view!No wonder the
anti-religious posters here, and the liberal secularist groups nation wide, are
trying to take him down. It is actually really funny to watch them froth and
flail against well stated truths they can't lie their way out of. Go Dr Land!
@skeptic: Religious people weren't the ones who tired to hound other
people out of their jobs for supporting Proposition 8 in California. Similarly,
they aren't the ones who shout "bigot" or 'homophobe" at
anyone whose perspective is different from theirs, or who force their morals
over on small business owners. Since the "politically correct" crowd
never defines hate, I am forced to conclude that "Hatred" simply means
any opinion that they don't happen to like.
Mr. Land says that the term "cult" does not apply to the LDS Church. So
far so good. But he goes on to say that The Mormons have to accept that a lot
of evangelicals are not going to accept them as fellow Christians. that's
not much better than being called a cult. It seems to me Mr. Land could do a
lot about this if he wanted to, so what is he doing?
"Good will" between Southern Baptist and LDS leaders is only going to go
so far. LDS missionaries are working hard to convert So. Baptists (and others)
to the LDS Church. Obama's March 2012 response to a
reporter's question about Trayvon Martin (which Land responded to) is too
long to post. Obama (in part) stated, "And I think every parent in America
should be able to understand why it is absolutely imperative that we investigate
every aspect of this, and that everybody pulls together -- federal, state and
local -- to figure out exactly how this tragedy happened.....""I think all of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does
something like this happen. And that means that examine the laws and the context
for what happened, as well as the specifics of the incident.But my main
message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. If I had a son, he'd look like
Trayvon. And I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are
going to take this with the seriousness it deserves, and that we're going
to get to the bottom of exactly what happened."
Why do we live in a society where so many people feel it's all or nothing?
We can live in a society that we have Judeo-Christian values governing the
people. Religious liberty, under the protection of Judeo-Christian values. In
other words, religious freedom until you rape little girls (Darrel that's
why Jeff's in jail, regardless of who he said told him to do it), blow up
people (Islam), or perform other atrocities. Get rid of religious law and we
fall to survival of the fittest which means murder, stealing, and doing what
ever anyone wants to do to someone because they are stronger. Law protects the
weak. The Law came from Judeo-Christian values. The weak want to remove the law,
they will remove their protection.
Non acceptance of immoral behavior is not hate. Attempting to force others to
accept immoral behavior against their conscience is not tolerance. Failure to
understand that same-sex attraction is very real to a small percentage of human
beings is unrighteous judgment and counter factual. The gay community ultimately
must face the fact that most Christians and other folks with moral
underpinnings simply will not come to believe that immoral behavior is
acceptable now or in the future. It is what it is.
Mr. Lamb condems some LGBT people for not allowing live and let live attitude.
Yet he condems others who do not adhere to his viewpoint on what is proper. A
true live and let live attitude would encourage people to be in a healthy loving
relationship. It would condemm laws that forbid others from enjoying all of the
benefits enjoyed by others it would condemm discrimination based on sexual
orientation. It would encourage all family relationships. Believe me, I have
traveled throughout the Baaptist Bible belt anf the evengical Christians do not
believe Mormons are true Christians.
-- "Reading this story and reading stories about the current Pope, I
can't help but notice the difference in tone between the two. One seems
much more loving and Christ-like than the other." --Christ-like? Who said, "Think not that I am come to set peace
on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at
variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother"?Who went to the temple and "cast out all them that bought and
sold…and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers"?How
loving and Christ-like was that?Just as children need parents who
both love and chastise them, we humans need both "loving and
Christ-like" and "stern and Christ-like." We need God to love us
always but get our attention when we mess up. We need inspired people of God
like both Pope Francis and Pastor Land. At times, we need one approach more than
the other when the other is clearly not being heard or heeded – and that
is not Pastor Land's fault.
Wonder why so few young people are interested in "religion" these days?
Throwbacks like Richard Land are a pretty good reason. What is the
LDS leadership thinking? Close associations with Catholics, of all people, on
"social issues", and now Richard Land? This is not progress, brethren.
This is moving backwards. The Catholic hierarchy has zero credibility and so
does Richard Land.
@1aggie says quoting the article, "They want their behavior affirmed as
normal and healthy, and they want anyone who disagrees with that for whatever
reason to be ostracized to the level of Klansmen"This guy is
downright offensive. Way to alienate me as a member by inviting this guy to
town."His comment is spot on and true. What's offensive
about his comment? How is he wrong in his assertion? One only has to read the
"civil" comments allowed on the Dnews threads to know that name-calling
is the preferred method of communicating by those who support homosexuality as
something normal, equal and embraceable. It's not, nor should
it ever be embraced. Homosexuality should be shunned at every corner known to
We are instructed as Christians to walk "with all lowliness and meekness,
with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love".This guy is
the opposite of what we are taught and chumming up to him is a big mistake. It
really feels like the train has gone off the tracks lately.
@truthseeker: re your 12:10 post today. Which part of Land's comments is
incorrect? I find them to be spot on.and as someone else has
mentioned, you really aren't for truthseeking since you turn away so many
truths for your own opinion.
There is no merit in visiting a Christian community and telling them with polite
words and a smiling face that they are not Christian, which is what Land
believes. Neither is saying "I don't believe you're an
'alcoholic', but you drink too much." So his refusal to call the
LDS Church a 'cult' is little comfort. His is a very condescending
visit to Utah.
Article quote: "Deseret News: How would you characterize Mormon/evangelical
relations today? Land: ....... To some degree (members of the) LDS Church have
to get used to the fact that the majority of evangelicals are not going to
accept them within the framework of orthodox, Apostles' Creed Christianity.
And I think that evangelicals have got to accept the fact that the LDS Church is
a tremendous ally and fellow combatant against the things that are the most
threatening to us in America."Translation: "The majority of
us non-Mormons will accept Mormons' EFFORTS at fighting evil alongside us
but we will not accept YOU as equals."Did he just say that?He sure did. Read it again yourself.What to do? What do
do?.... Well, being angry and hurt over it won't help at all
so I guess the thing to do is be like Nephi and "frankly forgive" him
like Nepghi "frankly forgave" his own murderous brothers.Sure would be nice if non-LDS Christians accepted us as Christians lock, stock
and barrel like we accept them as Christians.Sigh....
@ BlueHusky - Mission Viejo, CA - "My issue is with the right's
assertion that God forbids homosexuality."Uhhh....BlueHusky,
that's because God DOES forbid homosexuality....
@ Californian#1: Matthew 22:37 "Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God
with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38
This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it:
‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets
hang on these two commandments.”@ BrentBot: “Because
religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every
person’s life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State
churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views
on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state
support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and
leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the “wall of separation
between church and state,” therefore, is absolutely essential in a free
society. We have solved the great and interesting question whether freedom of
religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws."
Thomas Jefferson, Speech to the Virginia Baptists, 1808
Reading Pastor Lands comments in the story remind me of what Ghandi said. "I
like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians, for your Christians are so
unlike your Christ".
@pd,Wouldn't you think that they would pray about such a
potentially divisive action? And wouldn't you think that the Lord would
answer those prayers when they sincerely seek it? I know that this can seem bold
by my writing this, but I believe that it needs to be said, for everybody's
sake. The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve always act in unity,
whenever and wherever they act. The question here is the same question that
members of the church could ask about the church's support of proposition
8, or any other stance that the church makes on any pertinent moral issue. The
question isn't "Is this really the right thing to do?" The question
is "Is Thomas S. Monson a prophet? Are the First Presidency and the Quorum
of the Twelve apostles, seers, and revelators?" And the answer to that
question is the same answer to "Was Joseph Smith a prophet of God?" I
can understand that it will come under scrutiny, and be misunderstood and
misread. But this isn't the "LDS leadership's" church.
It's the Lord's church, and He is the one who directs it.
If Mormons aren't Christen why are they the first church to answer the call
for help whever it is needed.
re:@CharlesWhich part of Land's comments is incorrect?"n African-American president who is in deep, deep, deep trouble for
re-election"Obama was never in "deep, deep, deep, trouble
for re-election. Furthermore, in March 2012, not a single poll had Romney ahead
of Obama. Even conservative-leaning polls, Fox had him up by 4, and Rasmussen
had him up by 3. Land: "those using race to polarize the
electorate" "gin up the black vote"Is Land a mind reader?
Are you? We can use the same "mind-reading" techniques about
Land's statements to believe Land was taking the opportunity to
"gin" up the conservative vote can't we? Land: "
"There is going to be violence." "people are going to get
hurt."Fox News: "Demonstrators from coast-to-coast
boisterously -- yet for the most part peacefully."Land was not
"spot-on" according to the available facts. You provided no
RE:The Caravan Moves On, The majority of evangelicals are not going to accept
them within the framework of orthodox, Apostles' Creed. i.e,#3.He was
conceived by the power of the “Holy Spirit” and born of the Virgin
Mary.The Virgin Birth. The “pale” of Christianity
believes the birth of Jesus was a unique miracle by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, same
Greek word(Pneuma). This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came
about, His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came
together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. (Mt 1:18
NIV,ASV,ESV).But (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547)Christ was begotten
by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal
fathers.”They tell us that the BoM states that Jesus was
begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The BoM teaches No
Such Thing! Neither does the Bible!”( Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines
@ DarrelHow to answer that one?Does anybody take anyone fro
Eagle Mountain seriously?
You have to give Land and others kudos for removing all the blatant hate
literature they once sold from the SBC web site. I doubt they have changed their
thinking about us Mormons but at least they are not quite as blatant as they
once were - in public anyway.
Mormons would do better to stand up for what they are rather than trying to down
play their differences from other Christians. They are two very different
religions and unless one or the other caves they will never coexist in harmony.
@Charlesif you cannot see what could possibly be wrong with Land
saying that ALL gay people "want anyone who disagrees with that for whatever
reason to be ostracized to the level of Klansmen" then I can't help
you. Land has demonstrated by this comment and many comments and
actions over the years that he is anything but good, meek, benevolent, or long
suffering. in short, he does not posses the characteristics of a good religious
leader. I don't know why so many people in our church can be so blind to
michael.jensen369The question here is the same question that members of
the church could ask about the church's support of proposition 8, or any
other stance that the church makes on any pertinent moral issue. The question
isn't "Is this really the right thing to do?" The question is
"Is Thomas S. Monson a prophet? Are the First Presidency and the Quorum of
the Twelve apostles, seers, and revelators?" KJKThis logic
contradicts what the prophets have taught regarding infallibility. Joseph
Fielding Smith & Harold B. Lee both taught that if they taught things
contrary to the scriptures, that we are to hold to scripture and reject the
prophet's words. Joseph Smith strongly condemned the idea of following
leaders simply because of their position. Supporting 8 violated 1 Cor. 10:29
& D&C 134:4. We were wrong to support it. Devout LDS can condemn 8
while still supporting the Brethren as prophets, seers and revelators.
I appreciate Dr. Land's efforts to dissuade others from calling LDS
"cultists". Weget that label due to our rejection of the
Athanasian Trinity and a closed canon,amongst other things. I find the gap
between those accepting Calvin's TULIP andthose rejecting it, to be
much wider theologically. Evangelicals state that theyagree on the
essentials and are free to differ on minor things. Fine. We LDS dothe
same. But the question of whether one can be saved or whether their fate issealed, as Calvinists teach, can no way be considered a minor theological
point.1 Tim. 2:4, 1 Jn. 2:2 specifically reject Calvinism by stating
that God wants allmankind to be saved and that the atonement was meant for
the whole world and notjust the "elect".How can
Christians who reject Calvinism consider Calvinists as Christians but deny us
Very well spoken answers. I was impressed with that interview.
"The secularists are out to circumscribe our constitutional rights." This charge is pure unmitigated scare tactic bunk. The truth is that
religious evangelicals would like to end once and for all that part of the
First Amendment which prohibits congress from passing any law "respecting an
establishment of religion". And if they should succeed, what do you think
would happen to minority "establishments of religion" who don't
subscribe to trinitarian or conservative Christian views? Mormons, Jews,
Muslims, ought not to be so quick to jump in bed with those that express such
fears. They just might be those who should really be feared.
I cannot respect a religious leader that tells out and out lies as he has done
in this very article.Evangelicals have a very bad record of trying to force
their particular beliefs on other, in our public schools and in government. When
they are stopped from abusing others religious belief then they cry that they
are being denied their religious freedom. So we must constantly protect our
religious freedoms from them 24 hours a day every day.. As I have said I cannot
respect any religious leader that lies, and Richard Land is one of them that
BrentBot,I see that you are suggesting that we push the Bible on al
kids regardless of what they believe or don't believe. Sorry but have a
little thing called religious freedom and that does not include giving
Christians a special right to push their religion on others.
Dr. Land is a nice man. I met him when Gov. Romney spoke at Texas A&M in
2007. He seems like a genuinely good person. But I cannot help but take his
comment about Mormonism being a "fourth Abrahamic religion" as a
back-handed compliment in at least the following sense: he says Mormons need to
accept that we will never be accepted as part of mainstream Christianity, and
then he explains that we are an Abrahamic religion in the same way Islam is. Of
course Mormonism is an Abrahamic religion, and we're proud to claim Abraham
as part of our heritage. But unlike Islam, Mormonism clearly teaches that Jesus
Christ is the literal Son of God, the divine Savior and Redeemer of the world,
and the only name under heaven whereby salvation comes. To act as if Mormonism
is no closer to creedal Christianity than Islam represents a fundamental
misunderstanding of Mormonism and its central teachings and tenets.
RE: lds4gaymarriage, Calvinists as Christians but deny us the same?1Timothy 2:4,God desires all men to be saved. *Martin Luther,” God may
desire the salvation of all men but had chosen to forgo those desires for a
higher, hidden purpose. If the salvation of all men was his overriding
priority, he could prevent Satan from blinding the eyes of the unconverted so
that more would believe. He would work toward softening the heart of all
men.”*Satan is a creature, he is subject to the Lord.1John2:2, is not explaining the intent of the atonement but is only repeating
some basic Christian truths. In the early church, many Jews found it hard to
believe that God would save the Gentiles. This verse addresses this problem,
reminding us that the one who saves the Jews is the same one who saves the
Gentiles. Jesus is the propitiation for both Jew and Gentile. The passage says
nothing in favor of Him dying for every individual on earth.John
tells us there is only one way of salvation. If anyone will be redeemed, he will
be redeemed through Jesus, the only Savior (John 14:6).
I applaud the LDS Church for inviting Dr. Land, Dr. Land for accepting and
Matthew for his interview questions. Cooperation for improvement is an
admirable venture and I think they are doing just that.
@lds4gaymarriageNothing you wrote refuted what I said. This is the
Lord's Church, and He is the one who directs it. Nothing you wrote refuted
what I said. So how do we know whether they speak the truth or not? How do we
know whether they make inspired decisions or not? Listen to them speak, and read
what they have said or written. Read about their lives. Ask God is they are
truly authorized to speak for Him, and ask Him if they are truly His servants.
They are not perfect, but we can know for ourselves when they are inspired, or
when they are speaking for themselves. Gay marriage is doctrinally at odds with
God's truth. Gay marriage cannot lead to procreation, or to the creation of
a family. This church is all about family, and the next life is all about
family. Exaltation(for which temple marriage is required) is all about family.
@michael.jensen369"Nothing you wrote refuted what I said. So how do we
know whether they speak the truth or not?" Sorry, but it does. As was
pointed out, if the prophets teach something contrary to sustained scripture, we
are to reject that prophet's teaching. PERIOD. If they receive a
revelation that contradicts scripture, it must be sustained by Common Consent.
That's how the Priesthood ban and OD-1 became official. It's how
D&C 137 & 138 became official in 1975. The prophets do not get a blank
check to do whatever they want. There is an order to things and it must be
followed. In the case of Prop. 8 that you brought up, the prophet's call
was contrary to scripture and should have been rejected by the membership. If
the prophets present such a doctrine for a sustaining vote, or one that the
scriptures don't address, then we as members must pray about it and receive
confirmation before accepting it or rejecting it when a Common Consent vote is
taken.Being wrong doesn't make them false prophets, it makes
them human and reinforces the need for scripture study so that errors, like
Prop. 8, can be avoided.
I was invited to the 2004 Protag Conf. to preeent one of my paintings (One
Nation Under God)to Cheif Justice (Alabama)Roy Moore at a gathering of the
leading Evangelicals from around the US. This included Phyllis Schafly,Alan
Keyes,etc. I was the only Mormon boy there.When I presented the work to Judge
Moore, it was more of a testimony and establishing a common ground. Recieved a
standing ovation! A wonderful experience and we all had a very spiritual
experience together for 2 days. Lots of questions were asked about our faith and
a lot of misconceptions were able to be eliminated.Brother Hatch(not able to
attend),made a call in to the conference from DC and that too was also recieved
@1aggie"This guy is downright offensive. Way to alienate me as a
member by inviting this guy to town."Why? Is it because you lack
faith? Is it because you wish to confirm exactly what he said? You realize that
is exactly what you did don't you? You have no tolerance for his opinion
and the fact is he is correct about it, you helped confirm it.
So, Kevin J Kirkham, i guess Moses got it wrong with the 10 Commandments. They
were new scripture and they were not sustained by common consent. What a
sharrona[RE] 1Timothy 2:4,*Martin Luther,"God may desire the salvation
of all men but had chosen to forgo those desires for a higher, hidden purpose.
If the salvation of all men was his overriding priority, he could prevent Satan
from blinding the eyes of the unconverted .."LDS4You're
missing my point. If Calvinism is true, most of humanity are destined to Hell
without any possibility of salvation. Their fate is sealed. A loving God
wouldn't create people just to send them to Hell..unless some "higher,
hidden purpose" is revealed. I can't think of anything that would
justify such unjust cruelty.sharrona1John2:2, is not
explaining the intent of the atonement but is only repeating some basic
Christian truths. In the early church, many Jews found it hard to believe that
God would save the Gentiles. This verse addresses this problem, reminding us
that the one who saves the Jews is the same one who saves the Gentiles. Jesus is
the propitiation for both Jew and Gentile. The passage says nothing in favor of
Him dying for every individual on earth.LDS4 The KJV, NIV, NASB,
NRSV and the Greek clearly state otherwise.
@Wastintime "So, Kevin J Kirkham, i guess Moses got it wrong with the 10
Commandments. They were new scripture and they were not sustained by common
consent. What a curious system."KJK Since there was no
sustained/official scripture at the time, nor any knowledge of Common Consent,
Moses couldn't like those principles unto himself. As the Gospel has been
revealed, line upon line, precept upon precept, the way we do things changed.
Today, per the D&C, everything is to be done by Common Consent. Moses
didn't have the D&C. The prophet isn't the emperor. There are
rules he must follow and if he doesn't, we must reject his actions. The
prophets have been clear on that. Sorry
If Land really used "language to communicate", he would have clarified
the other 6 (Webster) definitions of a cult. His assertion of Mormonism simply
being a "fourth Abrahamic religion" is obtuse and incorrect. Only two
posts in 85 here are any more astute of the linguistic defintions.As
a 6th generation Mormon, born and raised for 35 years, I know my LDS heritage
and doctrines- old and new. As a Born-Again Christian for the past 30, I know
how deep the differences. Until 1890, LDS were "loud and proud" about
our distinctiveness. Per many, that was our failing, as the saints did not move
quietly into any eastern community. We even built our own beautiful Nauvoo so
we could live our distinctive lifestyle openly. Pre-1890 LDS have more in
common with the gay community in that respect.Obviously convinced of
the correctness of our new plural marriage revelation, we left it all behind,
and Utah is what it is today because of the saint's commitment to their
beliefs and leaders. But just establishing a community of faith does not
rectify any group's doctrines with other religious tenets.
@sashabill"Religious people weren't the ones who tired to hound
other people out of their jobs for supporting Proposition 8 in California.
"They're just the ones who fight non-discrimination
ordinances so that it can still be legal to fire people if they're
gay...@Charles"What's offensive about his
comment?""Homosexuality should be shunned at every corner known to
man."Speaking of things that are offensive... @The
Caravan Moves On"Sure would be nice if non-LDS Christians accepted us
as Christians lock, stock and barrel like we accept them as Christians."Well... you're not fully accepting of other Christians either since
you consider their baptisms to be lacking on some level. For what it's
worth, even as an ex-mormon myself I consider the LDS church Christian and much
like my United Methodist pastor (the church I grew up in before converting) once
told me, I see no reason why being LDS would keep someone from heaven.
The LGBT community wants freedom from speech by not allowing those opposed to
their point of view the right to speak freely of behavior considered sinful.
But they demand the right to speak intrusively to any member of my family,
especially impressionable children, about how right LGBT behavior is while
I'm tied and gagged. Yes, they have an agenda. And the political parties,
and even members of the Supreme Court, are divided over this question. Liberals
tend to side with granting rights to the LGBT, while at the same time, denying
those same rights to those not in favor of that persuasion. I have to be
ashamed that our court system is so divided and cannot see the slippery slope.
Two things are coming that will further erode the family. Polygamy, and
any-can-be-married-to-anybody-amy. Entire neighborhoods can all be married to
each other. There is no argument used in favor of gay marriage that cannot be
applied to such lunacy. Who is father and who is mother will not be defined for
future generations. Father and Mother are words being legislated away. Where
is my right?
RE:lds4gaymarriage, If Calvinism is true, most of humanity are destined to
Hell.“this is the highest degree of faith , to believe him
merciful when he saves so few and damns so many.” Martin Luther,Romans 9:16,18,20,21,23,27. Verse 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human
desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 18 Therefore God has mercy on
whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 20
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed
say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay
some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? 23 What if he
did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom
he prepared in advance for glory.27 Isaiah cries out concerning
Israel:“ Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the Remnant will be saved.
Yes, there are loving and good people in every religious strata and
non-religious ones, too.Yes, Southern Baptists and Mormons work together
on charity and disaster relief, just as do Catholic Charities, Muslim Relief, et
al.When are the LDS going to stop trying to equate good civil work
and charity with having the same religious beliefs? They know it is not true,
but they say it on these posts daily. It is unnerving to see such piety in
front of the knowledge that they do not accept any other priesthood or ritual as
having any eternal viability.I grew up LDS, I taught it. I know
there are mostly honest LDS. So stop equating your "good works" with
your doctrines. Dr. Land knows better and should have explained the moniker of
"cult" as it applies. There are the small, crazy ones ala Warren Jeffs;
there are the large, scary ones, ala the Moonies. Islam started small, as did
Christianity. Size has nothing to do with Biblical-believing churches. If the
Nazis still ran Europe, and out-numbered everyone else, would their numbers mean
they had the Truth?Mormonism, JWitnesses, Moonies- all have another
SharronaRomans 9:16,18,20,21,23,27KJKGod simply
doesn't pick some for heaven/hell and neither group can change their fate.
Acts 10:34,35 says that anyone who loves God and lives morally is acceptable to
God. God wants all to be saved 1Tim.2:3-4,1Jn.2:2. There are verses about
salvation given to those who "endure to the end" and others stating that
some can sin so much that they can't be renewed unto repentance. What do those verses mean? They could refer to our earthly circumstances
rather than our eternal reward. God makes some rich, poor, bond, free, tall,
short, maim, whole, etc... He does this to help us learn what we need to to
return to Him. We may not understand why and some may complain/question like
v20 states. Sure, there are some whose righteousness/valiance in the
per-existence may warrant them going to heaven, but none sent here to Earth are
predestined to Hell. A loving God would instead simply destroy the souls of the
non-Elect. Making them suffer eternally in Hell benefits no one. Does it
glorify God or increase our love? NO!
Aggressive secularism is occuring in many of the Western democracies. It became
noticeable when the iron curtain came down. While the USSR was imprisoning
people for their beliefs we saw the massive State interferance as evil (evil
Empire etc). Now we see the State interfering with people right to exercise
their beliefs as being the business of the State (quite a role reversal).
Parents must have the right to bring up their children according to the dictates
of their beliefs. The secularist is seeking to liken mankind to robots,
deterministic machines which have no room for a heart, the tin man from the
Wizard of Oz.
As long as he's willing to let me live my religion my way, we can be
friends. All of my baptist friends turn nutty at some point, saying hurtful
things about the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith, but so far with this guy, so
"Let’s be very clear, the gay and lesbian and transgender folks
don’t want to live and let live." "... homosexual behavior
is contrary to God’s will. "Says those who are trying to
legislate how the gays and lesbians can live.Thankfully, the USA is
not a theocracy.