Donn,D&C 27 and 89 are, I think, what you are looking for. 27
also outlines that we may use things other than wine.If you go to
the main LDS website, there is Scriptures tab on the top. They are searchable
and should be of help.
RE: Twin Lights, Will you track down? . “Wine for the sacrament should be
unfermented, pure, and preferably ‘of your own make’. (See Doctrine
and Covenants 26:1; 86:1.)”In my version it describes the wine
used in the communion service, these verses must have been edited(moved) as
well. RE; zoar63, Do you have a month and date on the earlier D&C
17:23? No, but I do for Article #11. “We believe in the
literal resurrection of the body, and that the dead in Christ will rise first,
and that the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years are
expires.“Frontier Guardian(LDS newspaper), Vol. 2, No. 2, Feb.
20, 1850, Orson Hyde (14 articles) #11 was eliminated. See, Joseph Smith Begins
His Work, Vol. 2.
I applaud the Church for making the documents public in this era when
information is being democratized. How much difference will it make in how the
LDS and the world at large regard Joseph Smith and the Mormon religion?Not as much as some expect, I predict. Faith is not built on empirical
evidence. Those hostile to Joseph Smith who sift through the material to find a
chink in his armor have the right to do so. Many more of the non-believers who
undertake an honest study without an agenda will be the curious who are simply
dedicated to increasing human understanding of a very public historic figure who
had a significant impact on his times.
To add to my previous comment, let me say that one reason why what anti-Mormons
or just critics of what Mormons do and say, and what the Church does are
sometimes valuable is this, they help keep us awake and thinking, and sometimes
even helping us correct our thinking, and what we say and do. Truly, there must
needs be "opposition in all things". Yes, by far and away,
most of the time that distractors distract, they do so for the purpose of
beguiling the naive, and even maligning the upright. But, sometimes, they have a
valid point.One thing I have found interesting to me is that I, as a
conservative, and not a typical one at that, am always published in the other SL
paper, whereas in this organ, I am not only constrained by word count, but also
by censors who assiduously work to make sure "no one is offended", and,
IMO, I am often extremely offended. I don't believe, for example, that much
of what Jesus of Nazareth said would get through the censors of this organ. And
the time drag caused waiting approvals greatly stifles conversation.
@HutteriteIt's only a suggestion, which you will likely choose to
continue to ignore, but you choice blocks you from one of the most incredible
experiences of life - that of learning to lean on the Spirit for heavenly
enlightenment. Even Jesus taught in John 16, that he must leave, so that the
Spirit could come to His apostles. He taught them that they must learn to rely
on faith and the Spirit to obtain divine knowledge. You can be likened to a
horse brought to the water, yet refuses to drink. An ostrich with its head in
the ground also comes to mind. We grant you your right to avoid a source of
truth, and we appreciate your granting us the privilege of seeking the Spirit,
but your position doesn't negate the power and peace that comes to those
who follow Christ. If I do not awaken in the next life, I will not know that I
was wrong. But your position runs the risk that you can only awaken to a
knowledge that you were wrong. If you are right, you'll never know it.
I am an active and faithful member of the (LDS) Church. That these things in the
Joseph Smith Papers Project are now being brought to light, IMO, is wonderful.
However, in the last decade or so, being online, discussing, and yes, even
disputing with anti-Mormons, whether they previously were LDS or not, I have
learned many valuable lessons. One of them is that sometimes (not all of the
time, or even necessarily most of the time), but sometimes in their criticisms
of the LDS Church and/or members of it, they are correct. Now, that does NOT
mean their end conclusions are correct. But, occasionally, here and there, they
state the truth, and we as members, and yes, occasionally even the Church's
'official' position can be in error.Now, again, I do not
subscribe to all or even most of what our critics claim. But, there is some
"smoothing over", and yes, even some "sanitizing" of accounts so
hard to explain things don't have to be explained. That said, while the new
tomes are very much welcome and helpful, all, whether on our side, or theirs, is
taken on faith, either in man or God.
Donn,This revelation was given in August of 1830 To:Joseph SmithPlace:Harmony, Pennsylvania"LISTEN
to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your Redeemer, whose word
is quick and powerful.For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not
what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it
so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory--remembering unto the Father
my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the
remission of your sins". D&C 27:1-2Do you have a month and
date on the earlier D&C 17:23?
KellyWSmith,Thank you. I was confused.Donn,Check the FairMormon site under Doctrine and Covenants Textural Changes.
Should tell you about changes. Please understand, I am no historian.Reference the sacrament prayers. These are in D&C 20, verses 77 and 79.
Check the online version maintained by the church. It is searchable.
As someone (I forget who) once said, one wonders what the major religions of the
world would be like if the founders had lived after the invention of the
RE; KellyWSmith, There are only 9 verses in Section 17 of the D&C and that
section has nothing to do with "the communion service." An
earlier D&C 17:23,”O God the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name
of thy Son Jesus Christ to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all
those who drink of it, that they may do it remembrance of the blood of thy Son
which was shed for them, that they may witness unto thee, O God, the eternal
Father, that they do always remember him ,that they may have his Spirit to be
with them. Amen”They were edited like ,i.e, The original A of
F #8 We believe in the Word of God recorded in the Bible; we also believe the
Word of God recorded in the Book of Mormon, and in all other good books. See
current #8. I asked Twin lights about the edited verses in the past
he has responded to my questions and might know.
Those who promote reason over faith are, in reality, placing faith in reason or
science alone rather than faith in God. Reason alone cannot answer the questions
"where did we come from," "why are we here," and "where are
we going after death?" There will be those who respond "of course reason
can--we came out of an evolutionary state, we are here to live according to our
reasoned knowledge, and we are at an end when we die." But they have little
basis in fact to prove out their conclusions other than a set of extrapolated
"truths" from limited scientific studies.The fact is, there is no
getting away from faith. Faith is all based on what an individual is willing to
accept: faith in reason, faith in science, faith in God, or a combination of all
three.Publication of these papers will provide the fuel for all,
regardless of where they stand, strengthening the faith of the believer, and
giving reason for doubt on those holding faith in reason alone.
@ Happy Valley Heretic:Set your mind and wonderings at ease. Due to
the unprecedented level of scrutiny to detail using the very latest technology,
there are not, nor will there be any Hoffman papers included. @
Hutterite:Having read your posts on many different online Deseret
News articles, it's not a surprise that you once again declare your
personal exclusion to anything religiously oriented that you deem as ideology.
As far as it being a right, the average reader already knows and understands
those very basic and inherent rights without further declaration.Christ himself declared that the gospel He brought to mankind is faith-based
and warned about those who are sign-seekers... those needing such
"proof" before saying they would believe. That's not how a
spiritual rebirth happens, nor will it ever be. Until a person obtains the
humility to understand such spiritual principles, they will continue to be left
out and will continue to lack those basic but required understandings. It has to
come from the heart before it can be added to by the mind.
@Donn, what version of the D&C are you reading from? There are only 9 verses
in Section 17 of the D&C and that section has nothing to do with "the
communion service."And, @TwinLights did not reference any
scripture, yet you want him to show you verses 10-21? Very
RE: Utes Fan, How can this be??? I have been told 10,000 times by critics that
the Church just hides and covers up this information. In my
version of the, D&C 17:22,23 describes the communion service. The blessing
of the bread and the blessing of the wine. RE: Twin Lights, Can you
show me where I might find verses 10—21?
Hutterite,Did I miss something? Was anyone saying to you (or
anyone) that you had to accept this?No problem remaining excluded if
that is your wish. But then why are you here on this site?
If you accept that this stuff is truth based on faith, reason won't prove
otherwise. Every MLM outfit knows that. And that's fine, if you want to buy
in. But I do not accept the description of whatever little catch phrase it is
can be assigned to those who don't accept this stuff as truth. I am a human
being, free of this ideology at birth and free to stay that way, and if our
society is delivering its' promise, that's all I need to be. Your
party is welcome to continue. The righteousness you assign to it, whether as
individuals or a group, is still only an assumption until it can be proven
otherwise, and one into which I claim exclusion as my right.
I like what Leo said, but in addition to what he said I've been learning
this lesson myself lately and I am not even in a leadership position.It is a perfect work performed by imperfect people. The only reason to judge
the work is because of hard feelings, not because of reason or intellect.Our 'connection' with the spirit is like a computer. Our body
is the hardware, our minds are the software, and we make choices that affect our
ability to function. Some things cause physical harm, others cause mental harm.
Our Heavenly Father may give us a set of instructions to follow in order to
perform at 100% capacity. Judging the integrity of His instruction manual based
on how much someone decides to follow the instructions isn't rational. As
most of us recognize this, we can see that most criticism comes from hard
feelings. It quickly becomes apparent how important our own conduct is not only
for ourselves, but to help others.When we correctly understand
historical and spiritual truths, we see imperfections as a means to learn, not
to harden our feelings or reject the truth.
I've read just a few lines of the Joseph Smith papers and I love the
knowledge we gain from them. It is a proven fact that in this Church, the more
educated a person is, the more likely he/she will never leave the Church.
Knowledge is power. That is why President Hinckley pushed education, that is why
we have special programs to fund education in the Church, that is why we are
being given access to the Church History.
I like the statement written in the article...."You see him
trying to figure out how to do this, figuring out how to be a prophet."It is very insightful--and true. Anyone who has held a leadership
position in this church knows that the qualities of leadership including
decisionmaking are built upon as maturity within the calling occurs. Detractors
would say otherwise.Faith is an integral component of this religion,
including faith in the leaders. They are not perfect and make mistakes.
Fortunately for them (and us) the atonement provides second chances.I look forward to this new insight into Joseph the Prophet's life.
I wonder how many Hoffman originals will be included?
I love seeing these papers come to light and reading them for the first time. I
know there are those who have criticized the leadership of the church claiming
they were "hiding" them all these years. The fact is that it is an
enormous project and needed to be done the right way. The Benjamin Franklin
Papers project has been going on since around 1954 (I think) and is still not
done (as far as I know). It is so great to see things written in Joseph
Smith's own handwriting! And the things he dictated are just as profound.
I salute the Church Leadership for bringing these things to light
and putting down false ideas and rumors that have been spread around for years.
These documents clarify many things that people have wondered about, and now the
world will have access to all the information to help them find the answers they
are looking for. I hope that this will lead to a better relationship with those
who have fought against or left the church. I know that is a big
hope, but I can still hope can't I?
"Although Woodford acknowledged that there are some things in the documents
series “that on the surface may seem to be damaging” to
faith".How can this be??? I have been told 10,000 times by
critics that the Church just hides and covers up this information.
I love this. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to be able
to look at unfiltered source material to gain greater insight. This allows the
lay man like myself to do just that. The next project should be to create an
academic version of the scriptures with footnotes citing source materials and
images, as well editorial changes to the text. For instance, it would be neat
to have original text in one font, and editorial changes and additions in
italics. All of this, of course, with documentary footnotes and references.