Mormon apologetics group announces new name


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  • 2 Cents San Antonio, TX
    Sept. 2, 2013 10:23 a.m.

    When one is taught from infancy to "follow the prophet, follow the prophet, he knows the way" (and COUNTLESS other such teachings) one is compelled to think that the prophet has a special relationship with Christ or with God, and that the prophet's words are to be followed. The Quorum of the Twelve are, after all, called as "special" witnesses of Christ, correct?

    When such a one reaches adulthood and is then told that the prophet doesn't always speak for God, e.g. he doesn't always "know the way", and that you are essentially on your own in determining when he does and doesn't, it creates a fundamental shift in one's faith, especially when the prophet is Joseph Smith. Then, as an adult, when you prayerfully and faithfully decide that what you just heard the prophet say was said as a man and not as a prophet, you are essentially an apostate and wrong.

    That's a problem.

  • zoar63 Mesa, AZ
    Aug. 29, 2013 4:45 p.m.

    And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth--
    And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
    And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.
    (D&C 68:2-4)

    And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
    If it be some other way it is not of God.
    Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?
    Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.
    (D&C 50:19-22)

  • ChristoperB Salt Lake, UT
    Aug. 29, 2013 10:54 a.m.


    I'm not sure how your comments address my questions at all.

    Was there an attempt to do so?

    Mormons prophets have made numerous false statements.

    Do you refute this?

    If not, does this mean God made a mistake(I'll presume your answer is no)

    We then get to

    Why did the prophet say something that was false?

    I'll presume your answer is "he was speaking as a man"

    Ok, how do you know when he is speaking as a man or speaking for God?

    The only rational conclusion we have come to so far is:

    We don't. Not even Mormon prophets themselves know when they are speaking for God.

    Any other proposals?

  • ChristoperB Salt Lake, UT
    Aug. 29, 2013 10:48 a.m.


    I re-read your post.

    "Once a person knows by the Holy Spirit that the Prophet is God's spokesperson for our time, they don't need to continually question every thing he says"

    But doesn't that wording suggest once someone knows a prophet is God's spokesman that future things that person says will be from God?

    Is that now what you are implying here?

    And yet I can point to many times prophets have said incorrect things.

    Surely Mormons "knew by the Holy Ghost" these people were prophets right?

    I know you can claim that you and others are trying to help understand a principle. I'm just asking basic questions and think the one and only true church could provide consistent answers that aren't contradicted by other statements they make.

    Please tell me if that is too much to ask?

    I re-read your last post as you asked.

    Now I ask, if you receive from the Holy Ghost knowledge a prophet is God's spokesman do you take that to mean anytime he talks he's speaking for God?

    And therefore won't ever be wrong?

    Or is God wrong sometimes?

  • KellyWSmith Sparks, NV
    Aug. 29, 2013 12:04 a.m.

    Christopher B,
    You asked, "How do you know when the prophet is speaking for God or as a man?"

    Please re-read my last post. I can't say it any clearer, even though I and many others have given a valiant effort to answer the question. I have never seen so many try so hard to help someone understand a principle. I hope you appreciate that effort as you have gotten a lot of air time here. I applaud all of those who have tried to explain something so basic, and to me, so clearly done.

    Sometimes people have to be put in a position where they finally open up and learn the principle and quit demanding things happen the way they want, but let God's way take over. Maybe that will happen to you and then you will understand what has been said here.

    Have faith my friend, and let God help you understand the answer. Open up. Be humble. Let go.

  • lynnea1 JEFFERSON CITY, MO
    Aug. 28, 2013 11:34 p.m.

    Prophets are mere men; it is up to us to be faithful to understand the things they are telling us. Even the prophets of old were not perfect; they taught different things for different times. Take Moses. Do you suppose that God meant for him to get lost in the desert? He didnt say 'Moses take your people and get lost in the desert.' We dont get complete instruction. The Prophet gives us what the Lord tells him to, then we must study, pray & show our faith to move forward. One thing the Lord said in the Bible, was that he was not going to perform miracles, etc., merely to prove that he is the one & only God. I would think the same goes for prophets. God wants us to learn to *believe* that there is a god and that the things He promises us are true. He could've just showed Himself right off the bat and everyone wouldve known he was the one true God and been done with it. But how would we have been able to prove our Love for Him if we already knew everything about Him and Eternity? We have to do our part.

  • dLange Los Gatos, CA
    Aug. 28, 2013 5:48 p.m.

    Christopher B.,
    The role of any prophet is to call the people to repentance, and advise them on how to live a more godly life. Rarely in scripture or history have the prophets prophesied. Divining the future is for fortune tellers. When prophets have prophesied, they have warned about possible dangerous consequences due to the current behaviour of the people, not definite, unchangeable future events.

  • 3GrandKeys Walnut Creek, CA
    Aug. 28, 2013 5:28 p.m.


    "If you don't believe it, move on with your life."

    Thanks for that. If only it were so easy to disentangle Mormonism from every aspect of our family relationships and personal identity. I encourage you to try and understand how painful it is to walk away and just "move on". Especially when we also might feel that Mormonism is causing real emotional and spiritual harm to people we love (and also to many people we don't know).

  • Pianoman Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 28, 2013 5:06 p.m.

    A lot of bitter angry people on here...it's simple: if you don't believe it, move on with your life. You're wasting a lot of precious minutes complaining and ranting about something you claim isn't true. I am now going to waste a few minutes of my life standing up against those who claim the Mormons are a fraud.

    Believing in something that you fully can't prove or see is called faith. To be honest, there isn't 100 percent evidence God exists. But if you believe in Him, you do it because you have faith.

    For those of you who claim to have facts that Mormon prophets have misspoken or have lied, I don't want to hear them because you probably have twisted their words or have received your information from Anti websites.

    In closing, I am living a happy life because I have something in my life that I believe is true and it helps me live healthy and treat others kindly. I guess we'll find out after we all die if there is a heaven and who was right.

  • maclouie Falconer, NY
    Aug. 28, 2013 10:28 a.m.


    Some clarification. 1st: you got the definition of apologetics wrong as noted by another commenter. 2nd: you read in my remarks something that was not there. For example, my remarks had nothing to do with getting the same answer. two, He wanted to know how to know how and I gave him a method. I never claimed God withheld His Holy Spirit. I said "if you feel (ie think) God has withheld...".

    BTW, I have always disliked the word "apologetics" for the reason it is misunderstood.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Aug. 28, 2013 9:03 a.m.

    In reading this thread, it would appear that generally, it is believed that....

    Prophets sometimes get revelation and sometimes merely speak their opinion.

    Don't you think they would know the difference?
    Wouldn't it be helpful if they were differentiated between the two when speaking to the flock?

    Why would they leave it up to each individual to figure out?

    Sorry, but that makes so sense to me. And it would certainly appear to be confusing to many believers, as indicated by this thread.

  • Christopher.B Salt Lake, UT
    Aug. 28, 2013 8:55 a.m.


    Did I say a prophet was as perfect as Jesus Chris?

    Nope. Where do you guys get this stuff?

    All of you seem to be dancing around the issue.

    Do you believe your prophets and apostles speak for God?

    If yes, how do you know when they are speaking for God and when they are speaking as men?

    It's really quite simple the questions I'm asking.

  • Christopher.B Salt Lake, UT
    Aug. 28, 2013 8:53 a.m.


    "Once a person knows by the Holy Spirit that the Prophet is God's spokesperson for our time, they don't need to continually question every thing he says"

    We're back to square one then with your comment.

    How do you know when the prophet is speaking for God or as a man?

    Or do you need me to remind you that many prophets have been wrong before?

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Aug. 28, 2013 8:00 a.m.

    Okay, so far we’ve learned:
    1) that prophets don't always speak for God (despite what Brigham Young said);
    2) that they don't tell us when they are (speaking for God) or not; we must figure it out ourselves.

    Two questions:
    1) According to Abeille above, God may deliberately give us the wrong answer, even leading us away from the Church if He does not think we can handle the truth, even if we ask sincerely. So how do we know that everybody who claims to know the truth here has not been not been given the wrong answer to their prayers because of their vanity?
    2) People have repeatedly said that using the spirit you can discern the truth, partial truth, or falsehood of what is spoken. If so, then when leaders make mistakes, why does everyone still go along? I had an experience with this and it was mind-boggling.

  • joeyslaptop VANCOUVER, WA
    Aug. 28, 2013 4:23 a.m.

    Christopher B,

    Where in the Bible does it say that a Prophet is as perfect as Jesus Christ? There was only ever one Jesus Christ - no other prophet can take His place.

    All Prophets and Apostles who speak to the church in behalf of God and Jesus Christ are mortal men - just like Moses was a prophet, but was not permitted to go to the promised land with his people; just like Jonah was rebuked by the Lord for his disobedience; just like Joseph Smith was rebuked for mishandling the plates on a few occasions.

    The scriptures teach us how to differentiate a true prophet from a false prophet. They also teach us how to recognize the Spirit. Prophets direct the church organization, minister to the members of the church, and speak in the name of God. Although Prophets may not always be perfect throughout their lives, they tend to be awesome spiritual leaders and examples.

  • EternalPerspective Eldersburg, MD
    Aug. 28, 2013 2:47 a.m.


    The Holy Ghost can "touch" anyone for the purposes of God to enlighten their minds and help move them to belief and action in faith. However, for the Holy Ghost to "tarry" or dwell with a person as a constant companion that they may endure to the end of this life, having progressed spiritually and been sancitfied of sin and unrighteousness, the gift of the Holy Ghost given by the Priesthood ordinance and the laying on of hands is required.

    Why else would those of Priesthood authority in the New Testament lay their hands upon people after Baptism as an ordinance to strengthen the spiritual communication with God through the Holy Ghost by way of covenant and commitment to be a disciple of Jesus Christ?

    Would not the same ordinance be found in the restoration of Christ's Church? Many Christian faiths have some form of Baptism, but for each and every member, very few if any have the ordinance of the gift of the Holy Ghost by one having authority.

    The fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the authority to build up His Church once again was restored through the prophet Joseph Smith and continues today.

  • KellyWSmith Sparks, NV
    Aug. 28, 2013 12:04 a.m.

    Once a person knows by the Holy Spirit that the Prophet is God's spokesperson for our time, they don't need to continually question every thing he says. Also, that person will instantly know that if he got some "revelation" to do something against God's teachings he would know that it is not from God, but from another source. Sadly, there are those who as members followed those false revelations and got themselves in trouble. Satan thrives on deception and enslavement.

    Most of the inspiration I have received in life has come as a sweet gentle spirit. Other times as a rather forceful urging that has spared my life. Many times it is as a clear thought or pure knowledge and, rarely as an actual penetrating voice of power that cannot be ignored. God's voice is unmistakable for I have heard it very clearly. It cannot be created by any other source.

    You will know if a revelation is from God by following this formula: D&C 8:2-4, and also D&C 9:8-9. Please read these verses as it explains it all.

    Have faith my friend. He does not prove himself to those who seek signs.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 9:57 p.m.

    RE: kvnsmnsn. (Mt 28:19 NIV) “Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations=(ethnic, black or white) baptizing them in the NAME of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. The Trinity, there are three persons, but one name, one God . See Heb 11:3, Greek Hypostasis( same /substance).

    RE: Twin Lights, Paul likely spoke it (Greek). True,
    Paul “I will Destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prude”(1 Cor 1:19 KJV). He quotes from the Greek Septuagint Is 29:14.

    Where, God denounces the policy of the Wise in Judah seeking an alliance with Egypt against Assyria. Fulfilled ultimately the Jews reject Jesus, Not about the BoM. I.e..

    A Marvelous Work and Wonder, a Modern Translation. (Is 29:14 LB.)Therefore I will take awesome vengeance on these hypocrites, and make their wisest counselors as fools.

    @Christ almost certainly never spoke (Greek). True, Christ is a title(not his second name) from the Hebrew “Mashiach’ or “Anointed one” which is translated into the Greek “Christos” later anglicized to Christ.

  • @look_to_god in flux, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 8:58 p.m.

    I know many have tried to answer the questions posed and I also got the clue that those questioning don't actually want the answer, but I'd thought I'd add my two cents worth anyway.

    The first requirement to knowing whether someone's words represent God's will is by living in harmony with God's ways. This is evidenced by knowing and recognizing the workings of the Spirit in your life. Without that, no answer given will ever suffice to lay the question to rest.

    To truly have faith and the Spirit, you must have a true understanding of God's character. You can find many of many faiths who recognize His nature, but Spiritual discernment is required. The scriptures are an ideal source to help you recognize the patterns.

    With that basis, you can learn to discern the truth, partial truth, or falsehood of what is spoken by ANYONE. Without it, you can only debate, argue, and criticize.

    A prophet is not there to do your thinking for you. He is a man like any other who must also learn, grow, and self-correct at times. But a true prophet will lead you right.

  • 3GrandKeys Walnut Creek, CA
    Aug. 27, 2013 7:01 p.m.

    Redshirt MIT:
    Just a minor detail, but the LDS organization has 15 (12+3) apostles.

    Can anyone throw me a bone on what the origins of the prophet (president) selection process is? Does the sequential assignment of the most senior surviving apostle have a scriptural basis? Is there a modern revelation associated with this process? Given that the only man with the authority to speak for God on Earth is selected via this process every time its origins ought to be clearly defined, but I have had a real hard time pinning it down. Couldn't even find anything about it by FAIR.

  • Abeille West Haven, Utah
    Aug. 27, 2013 5:56 p.m.

    @atl134 -

    Let's think this through. It appears that the crux of your statement boils down to the question 'why would people get different answers to the same question'? There are many reasons why one might sincerely ask a question and get a different response. One example: most people don't want to become Mormon. Becoming a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints morally obligates you to certain restrictions that most don't want to take upon themselves. So, if we accept as fact that all of humanity are his spirit sons and daughters, what would a loving father suggest for a son/daughter who asked whether they should join the Mormon church, but were utterly unprepared (or unwilling) to live its precepts? Getting a 'yes' answer would do the person more harm than good. Think of your own children, if you have any. Would you give the exact same advice to each one of them on all subjects? I submit that you wouldn't - not if you loved them. You'd give them advice based on their situation and abilities.

    But the difference in advice given doesn't mean the source is unreliable.

  • RedShirtMIT Cambridge, MA
    Aug. 27, 2013 4:31 p.m.

    To "RanchHand" what do you mean he didn't organize his church like the LDS church is currently organized?

    The Bible is clear that he had 12 apostles, we have those.

    We have Pastors (Bishops), Priests, and Teachers.

    Name one organization that the New Testament mentions that the LDS church does not have.

    If Christ didn't organize a church, then why would Paul write to the Ephesians and say "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"? That sure sounds like the titles used in an organized structure.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 4:13 p.m.

    "Some would have you believe that this is '...not a reliable source.' Baloney. I have found quite the opposite. Is there anything more sure than when God himself reveals something to you through the Holy Ghost?"

    Since that's directed to me by reference, I would reiterate that many people claim many different answers from that very same source, so there's a lot of people who are getting it wrong it would seem. There's no objective standard to determine whether or not the LDS are getting the right answers, or the Catholics, or the evangelicals, and so on. So yes, when it comes to objective discussion, it is not a reliable source because a lot of people go in different directions with what they think is the same source.

    It's not rare for someone to take Moroni's challenge and get a no for an answer. Frequently they're then told they weren't sincere. Or maybe... just maybe... you're the ones getting it wrong. Is there an objective way to determine that? I would say no, how do we prove who is right with the Spirit? That's not simple.

  • Fred Vader Oklahoma City, OK
    Aug. 27, 2013 3:41 p.m.


    It doesn't get any simpler than what I and others have already explained.

    If you don't believe, then for your own happiness you should move on to what you do believe in.

    The Gospel is not a matter of coercion. It is an invitation to eternal happiness. Of course the prophets, other leaders, neighbors, and family continue to reach out to those who believe differently...because they want their friends and family with them in the happiness they have found.

    I will not force anyone to believe as I believe. Many posters on here say, "Well what about the Budhist or Muslim or Baptist or Hindu (etc) who believe they received a different answer?" I say great for them! That is not the answer I received, but I wish them happiness in their journey.

    All are invited to learn the Gospel of Christ as the LDS Church teaches. However, if you do not receive the answers I and millions of others have received, that is ok, and I wish you well.

  • 3GrandKeys Walnut Creek, CA
    Aug. 27, 2013 3:32 p.m.

    FAIR is where members who believe whole heatedly in the correlated LDS teachings they've learned and testified of from their youth can go and have their world shattered. There's a reason this resource is never mentioned to the general membership by the leaders of the church. It holds an index of all things controversial yet factual about Mormonism. I'm grateful the resource was there for me because it had answers that I could trust weren't "anti", but unfortunately for me they weren't faith promoting and instead painted a picture of Mormon faith that was wildly misaligned from the origins of my faith.

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 2:56 p.m.


    I appreciate the attempt, but again I don't think that is what your church really teaches is it?

    "burden is upon each one of us to exercise our faith and find out if he is speaking for God or not."

    So what if a LDS member decides the prophet was wrong and now God is ok with that church member not paying his 10% tithing? Or what if that person says God told him it was ok to have a few alcoholic beverages once in a while?

    That doesn't seem like its left up to the individual member to me. Surely that church member would be prohibited from full participation correct?

    But what if God told him. It seems Mormons are told to believe what that a prophet says come from God.

    And yet you don't know(neither do the prophets themselves) if it comes from God or not.

    And surely I hope you don't believe every "wrong" thing a prophet has said can be excused away as "maybe he was making a joke"

    All hope ends of a rational discussion if that is your defense.

  • moniker lewinsky Taylorsville, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 2:49 p.m.

    Christopher B.
    I'm slapping my forehead on your behalf today.
    When people criticize you for using logic as opposed to something "higher", I really think that's the first clue that you are wasting your time.
    But still I applaud you, sir.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 2:48 p.m.

    Fred Vadar,

    Although your last post is mostly fair, I think your own church disagrees with you

    "But let's presume you do believe God called that prophet, and also gave you a different answer. If I was in that situation, then I would follow the answer I believe God gave me."

    It seems you are at odds with your church here are you not?

    If the prophet says something(presumably from God right?) yet you think he is wrong, your recommendation is to do what you think, not what the prophet says?

    Wouldn't telling people to disobey the prophet get you in trouble with your church?

  • alien236 LOGAN, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 2:47 p.m.

    How to know if a prophet is speaking as a prophet or just as a man: listen to the promptings of the Spirit as they speak, and/or pray about it and ask God for yourself. This Church has never expected us to take our leaders' word for it. Investigators are never expected to take the missionaries' word for it. Pray about it - it's that simple.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 2:39 p.m.


    Christ certainly didn't organize a church like the LDS church. He really didn't (even though you may believe it was so). He never really organized a church at all as he was a Jew and originally, Christians were just another "sect" in Judaism - until at some point Jews got fed up with the new "Jews", (i.e. Christians) not following the old traditions (circumcision, diet, etc). Tradition, TRADITION! Tradition, TRADITION! (if you can't tell, I loved Fiddler on the Roof).

    @Fred Vader;

    Your diagram leaves out the Mormon's side:

    1) Does your neighbor follow your way? Yes: Move along to next neighbor. No: Bug them repeatedly until ... :)


    There have been many "Messiahs" in Jewish lore.

  • Just Wanted to Say Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 2:36 p.m.


    Apologetics: Indicates there is something to apologize for.


    Actually, apologetics comes from the Greek word "apologia" which means "to give a defense", and in this case it's a defense supported by specific reasons and thoughts. No apologizing.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 2:26 p.m.

    maclouie says:

    "If you feel disappointed that God has withheld his Holy Spirit and revelations/knowledge from you then I suggest you visit a mountain top nearest you."

    --- Wow, what arrogance to assume that because he didn't get the answer you got (assuming he asked) that "god" withheld his spirit. Just WOW.

    Apologetics: Indicates there is something to apologize for.

  • mattrick78 Cedar City, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 1:53 p.m.

    I don't think Brigham Young claimed to be perfect and I think he sometimes went "off script" but later said he was speaking as a man and not as the prophet. He also said that the living oracles supersede prophets of times past and that includes him at this point in time. But if you took all that he has said in totality (which go into the volumes), much of what he said was good and wise counsel that far outweighs possible errors or things taken out of context or things people claim he said but probably didn't say or things that have no relevancy to us whatsoever. I believe that at his core he was good man, but that is my belief. And with what I understand about the gospel today he sounds like a prophet to me. That is my personal belief.

  • KellyWSmith Sparks, NV
    Aug. 27, 2013 1:30 p.m.

    Christopher B, let me see if I can give you an answer to your question. When a prophet speaks anything, whether a statement of stance on a current political issue or of future events or anything in between, the burden is upon each one of us to exercise our faith and find out if he is speaking for God or not. The starting point for each of these discussions remains with trying and testing to see whether the Book of Mormon is the word of God. It takes faith to find out that answer. It will never be discovered through intellectual means alone but using intellectual faculties combined with faith.

    As for supposed prophetic utterances that did not come true, it requires faith that someday we will know the answer as to why that happened. Did they really make Proclamation? Did someone write it down correctly? Were they making a joke? There are all kinds of things that could've taken place. But it takes faith to make your way through the difficult issue, and it always will.

    Start with the Book of Mormon and go from there. Then you will have a foundation you can build on. Have Faith.

  • Fred Vader Oklahoma City, OK
    Aug. 27, 2013 12:38 p.m.


    I think you are still making this more complicated than it needs to be.

    What to do if you believe God gave you an answer different than that of His prophet?

    Again, do you believe God called that prophet to speak for him? If yes, why would He give you a different answer than what the prophet said?

    But let's presume you do believe God called that prophet, and also gave you a different answer. If I was in that situation, then I would follow the answer I believe God gave me.

    Bottom line, IMHO, if a prophet speaks for himself, and not for God, and directs you to do something wrong, and you didn't receive a confirmation from God that it was wrong, then I don't believe you would be held accountable for following the prophet. However, if the prophet does speak for God and directs you to do something, and you choose not to do it, then you will be held accountable.

    But if you don't believe any of my #1-6, and feel God has directed you in another path, you should feel guilt free in taking it.

  • Pac_Man Pittsburgh, PA
    Aug. 27, 2013 12:36 p.m.


    Scripture both ancient and modern testifies of Jesus Christ.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 12:10 p.m.

    @EternalPerspective .. Jesus, you must be born again=( G. Anothen from above).(John 3:3). i.e.,

    Mosiah 4:3, “And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy ,having receive a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ.”

    The Spirit fell upon them before any ordinances had been applied(including baptism) they received the remission of their sins.

    Luke 23:43=[44 JST],"Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"; see 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.

    1Peter 3:20-22, 8 were saved by faith in Noah’s Ark. No one got wet.

    Priesthood authority,(D&C 110: 1-16) Elias and Elijah appear to JS, but in the Bible they are the same person. The KJV translators attempted to transliterate Elijah to Elias because there isn’t a Greek character for the English letter J.

    To avoid confusion, modern translations: NIV, NJKV, NASB and the Catholic Bible have Elijah instead of Elias in(Mt 11:14,; Luke 1:17)JS was fooled.

  • Abeille West Haven, Utah
    Aug. 27, 2013 12:04 p.m.

    Christopher B:

    So, then, how are we to know which of Nathan's statements were revealed and which was simply him speaking? First, Nathan would be the first to let you know which statement was revelation and which was not. Second, you are not left on your own to decide. You can find out for yourself. It will take some effort on your part, but if you're really interested in how to do it, go to the official LDS website, click on scriptures, then Book of Mormon. Read Alma 32:21-43. Millions of people, including myself, have followed this pattern successfully. Some would have you believe that this is '...not a reliable source.' Baloney. I have found quite the opposite. Is there anything more sure than when God himself reveals something to you through the Holy Ghost? Let the naysayers say as they please. Let them imagine as many conflicting scenarios as they like. If you are really sincere about it, you can find out for yourself. It is your choice.

  • EternalPerspective Eldersburg, MD
    Aug. 27, 2013 12:02 p.m.


    "Pure Knowledge" is one classification for divine communication (revelation) between the Holy Ghost and our spirits.

    So how would one know they are receiving revelation, save the subtle and indescribable physical manifestations that accompany a spiritual awareness of truth not received the same way as worldly knowledge? This is at the heart of why people who receive revelation cannot begin to express in worldly terms.

    God only reveals Himself unto those who listen to His Spirit and also act upon what is given towards becoming a profitable servant to Him here on earth. For God is no respecter of persons and Jesus said no one comes unto the Father but by Him. Only God knows when someone has made life choices to become prepared. Until then, they may walk largely in spirtual darkness, living primarily by their carnal ways and senses.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 explains this in certain terms, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.". Purity of intent to hold God's words as sacred and actionable is required to know spiritual things.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 11:58 a.m.

    "The bottom line, none of us know anything so there is no answer"

    Well done Maclouie.

    That's exactly right.

    Mormon prophets themselves don't even know when they are speaking for God or not(See Brigham Young's quote already in this thread about never sending something forth unless it comes from God, even though Brigham has several falsehoods in his history as well)

    Mormon followers therefore can stop telling us that when their prophets say something its from God.

    We have no idea if it is or isn't. That's my whole point. Thanks again Maclouie.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 11:54 a.m.

    FRed and Moontan,

    but your logic breaks down you I get a different "confirmation" than what someone else gets.

    Isn't that problematic.

    Isn't that the whole point of having a prophet?

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    Aug. 27, 2013 11:52 a.m.

    Correction... Notice they were NOT blind, mindless followers.

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    Aug. 27, 2013 11:44 a.m.

    I'll attempt to answer Christopher's #5 in a one-liner: my answer would be "By comparing what the prophet says to Scripture."

    Acts 17:11 tells us that those in Berea received Paul's "word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

    Notice they were blind, mindless followers. Whatever Paul taught had to be verified by the Scripture they had available to them.

    So, Chris, I'd say "By comparing what the prophet says to Scripture."

  • Fred Vader Oklahoma City, OK
    Aug. 27, 2013 11:42 a.m.


    Here are my responses to your numbered questions:

    1. Yes, I believe that the LDS Church is the true church. But you will need to get this answer for yourself. (See my response above #4 & 6.)

    2. Yes, I believe our prophets speak for God. But you will need to get this answer for yourself. (See my response above #4 & 6.)

    3. Not sure what the question is here, but I believe this statement is generally correct of most prophets and apostles, not just "Mormon" prophets and apostles.

    4. No, I don't believe God is wrong. Not sure what instances you are specifically referring to.

    5. You will need to get this answer for yourself. (See my response above #4 & 6 on "HOW")

    6. You don't "have" to get confirmation if you follow my steps 1 through 6 in my earlier post. But you "can" have confirmation if you doubt.

    7. I don't think it is astonishing, because we (several posters) have answered your #5. You just don't seem to like the answer, which is completely your prerogative.

  • maclouie Falconer, NY
    Aug. 27, 2013 11:24 a.m.

    How do we know? The answer is in Alma. Alma defines faith and knowledge and how to know.

    The bottom line, none of us know anything so there is no answer. Anything Christopher B. believes is what he wants to believe. That goes for all of us. We believe what we want to believe. Christopher B., go see the movie: The Life of Pi if you can't understand scripture.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 11:21 a.m.

    Fred Vader,

    That sounds all nice and pretty but doesn't hold up when your religion focuses so much on convincing others to join your church. When trying to convince someone to be baptized, its only fair they ask questions about the group they are about to join, don't you think?

    1. Is your church the only true church? If yes, I'll ask question #2.

    2. Does your prophet(and apostles by virtue of being prophets seers) speak for God? If yes, continue.

    3. There are numerous examples of Mormon prophets and apostles seemingly speaking for God(to church congregations, in church literature) that turned out to be very controversial, or just flat out wrong.

    4. Was god wrong in these instances?

    5. How do you know when a Prophet is speaking for God and when he is speaking for himself?

    6. If I have to go get "confirmation" of what the prophet said, what's the point in having a prophet if I can just go to God in the first place and get that information?

    I just find it astonishing that Mormons can't answer #5 and yet want me to join their church.

  • Fred Vader Oklahoma City, OK
    Aug. 27, 2013 11:02 a.m.

    I don't think this is really a complicated problem.

    1. Do you believe in God? If yes, go to step 2. If no, move along and have a happy life.

    2. Do you believe that God revealed His Gospel to J. Smith and ordained him a prophet, seer, revelator? If yes, go to step 3. If no, move along and have a happy life.

    3. Do you believe that J. Smith, through the authority given to him from God, restored God's gospel in the form of the LDS Church and thereby set up a system of ordaining and establishing prophets, seers, and revelators for our modern day? If yes, go to step 4. If no, move along and have a happy life.

    4. Do you believe that God answers your prayers? If yes, go to step 5. If no, move along and have a happy life.

    5. If you believe steps 1-4, then do you believe God would put those men in those positions to purposely lead His church astray? If no, go to step 6. If yes, move along and have a happy life.

    6. Have faith in the prophets' teachings, and/or pray for your own confirmation.

  • Abeille West Haven, Utah
    Aug. 27, 2013 10:58 a.m.

    Christopher B:

    I have many good Catholic friends and I respect their beliefs. Your first comment:

    "Either their prophets speak for God or they don't. Either God is wrong sometimes or he isn't."

    This is known as a 'Fools Choice', as there are more than two possibilities. In fact, there are many possibilities. It is possible for a Prophet to speak for God at times, while speaking his own mind at others. A good example of this is the Old Testament Prophet, Nathan. King David informs Nathan that he plans to build a temple to God. Here's Nathan's first response:

    "And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the Lord is with thee."

    Later that same night, Nathan has a dream. David is not to build the temple: his then-future son Solomon is to do it:

    "He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his (Solomon's) kingdom for ever."

    (2 Samuel 7:3, 13)

    Was Nathan talking for the Lord the first time? NO. That does not invalidate the revelation or his standing as Prophet, though. (Cont).

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 10:40 a.m.

    "How do we know when what they say is true? Simple. We know the same way that we know that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, we know the same way that we know that the Book of Mormon is true, and we know the same way that we know that God hears and answers our sincere prayers. We know by the power of the Holy Ghost."

    Not a reliable source. No really, and yes I'm a Christian, but here's the deal... there are over 4 million people in the world who subscribe to some sort of faith based religion that would give an answer similar to this but end up being Catholic, Methodist, LDS, Muslim, Jewish... people are getting different answers. I would posit then that you don't actually know, you just think you know, just like all the other people getting different answers (and to some extent including myself, but I'm not subscribed to any particular denomination so I'm making less of a determination than you are since what you "know" is more specific than what I "know").

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    Aug. 27, 2013 10:39 a.m.

    The Biblical prophets were fairly unambiguous when they said they had a message from God. I can't imagine Christopher's question requiring more than a one sentence response. How do we know?

  • LDS Revelations Sandy, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 10:35 a.m.

    I don't envy FAIR's job. Their new tagline illustrates the problem they have from the outset. Many if not most who doubt get to that point from critical evaluation of LDS doctrines, history and foundational claims. For many if not most nothing short of a critical review or answers will suffice. For better or worse doubters are those who cannot/will not be satisfied with non-empirical evidence when observable evidence is extant. For them faith only makes sense where evidence and reason cannot get the job done. To essentially say the default response to critical review is a 'faithful answer' suggests that fully honest and critical review of the issues is not only avoided but perhaps not even possible for FAIRMormon. My point: Clearly for many who doubt these answers will come up short.

    New branding and positioning but the same issues remain.

  • RedShirtMIT Cambridge, MA
    Aug. 27, 2013 10:31 a.m.

    To "Christopher.B" the best way to figure out when a Prophet is speaking the word of god is based on the subject matter. If it has to do with the Atonment or the saving gospel principels they are speaking the words of God. Beyon that, if you want to know if what they say is true, it takes faith and prayer.

    On a side note, Christ organized a church to ensure that his doctrine was taught correctly, why do you not follow Christ's teachings and find a church that is organized like Christ organized during his ministry?

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 10:31 a.m.

    @Christopher B
    And your churches' stance about Papal infallibility as opposed to actual results is somehow any different than that you claim about LDS prophets?

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Aug. 27, 2013 10:28 a.m.

    "you must draw not just from the modern day prophets and apostles but also those past (scriptures)"

    Which may or may not have been just the opinion of an infallible man. See the conundrum?

    "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture." - Brigham Young

    I guess the next question is "what constitutes scripture"?

    out of posts

  • EternalPerspective Eldersburg, MD
    Aug. 27, 2013 10:24 a.m.


    Faith is also only as good as having a correct understanding of the nature, character, and works of true and living deity. This only happens when one has been sufficiently prepared to receive God's word and act upon it, that they may gain the ability to do the works of Christ. For such intent has the Gospel of Jesus Christ been given to the world.

    All throughout the Bible, faith and repentance was always a prerequisite to entering into sacred covenants with God by Priesthood authority. But, how could covenants be made with people save Priesthood authority spoken of in the Bible existed on earth. God is unchangeable, so can mere grace alone save and exalt us because Christ has made His atoning sacrifice, or would not such be required of this generation too?

    Faith is either placed on the world's knowledge of God, or the more sure spirit of revelation, which is the Holy Ghost and the Priesthood gift recevied by the the laying on of hands mentioned in the New Testament. For Jesus said to Nicodemus, save a man be born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

  • NedGrimley Brigham City, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 10:18 a.m.

    "I'm honestly trying to understand what Mormons believe." ... On the comment boards of the Des News... Honestly...

  • Pac_Man Pittsburgh, PA
    Aug. 27, 2013 10:10 a.m.


    If your intention is find the truth regarding the salvation and the Atonement, you must draw not just from the modern day prophets and apostles but also those past (scriptures) as well as personal revelation.

  • Christopher.B Salt Lake, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 9:37 a.m.

    Abeille - I am Catholic technically but don't really align to any specific church in reality. So don't try pointing out inaccuracies in Catholicism, because I've never claimed that it is the one and only true religion or that you should listen to the pope because he talks for God.

    Samuel and others -

    So it is right then to say "Mormons(including the prophets themselves) don't ever know when their prophet is speaking for God or not"?

    Yes or no?

    Again, I bring this up because I can't tell you how many times during my life in Utah I've heard reference from Mormons to their prophet speaking for God and being the ONE AND ONLY TRUE RELIGION.

    One of your brought up receiving your own "confirmation" after a prophet speaks.

    That's problematic if two people receive different "confirmations" isn't it?

    I thought that was the whole point of having a prophet, speak for God.

    I'm honestly trying to understand what Mormons believe.

    How do you know when any of the prophets or apostles are speaking for God or just themselves?

    Still not answering the question.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    Aug. 27, 2013 9:06 a.m.


    How do you know the prophets would never lead you astray?? Let me guess, it was a statement from a previous prophet or apostle that you are going off of. So then, it could just be his opinion, and you can't count it as fact.

  • suzyk#1 Mount Pleasant, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 9:05 a.m.

    The only way anyone receives answers to their confusion or lack of understanding is through Faith and sincere prayer. If you truly want to understand and know if something is true, get down on your knees and in humility ask Heavenly Father if it is true. You will know it is true by the overwhelming feeling of peace and calm. If there is still doubt in what you are praying about then it is not right or good. Never in my life have I not received an answer to my prayers when I was praying with Faith and the knowledge that Heavenly Father was listening and thereby gave me peace. It's all about believing with all of your heart and soul and it won't always be the answer you hope for because it is not right for you at that time.

  • The Taxman Los Angeles, CA
    Aug. 27, 2013 8:37 a.m.

    So I'm hearing here that the prophet and other leaders are like any other wise men in the sense that what they say is usually accurate and good and we must figure out for ourselves it's meaning in our lives and how to use it?

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Aug. 27, 2013 8:28 a.m.

    How hard would it be for church leadership to put together a list.

    The following things have been revealed to our prophet directly from God.

    They are


    And anything else spoken by church leadership is our opinion and our council.

    That would clarify things pretty well, wouldn't it?

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 8:00 a.m.

    @EternalPerspective, Faith in God and whether or not His Church exists upon the earth has never been based on sight or worldly measurements of truth.

    Heb:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds=(*time g165, aiōn) were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    In (2Tim 1:9 & Titus 1:2)God existed before *time, implying he created time. … God who gives life to the dead and Calls into Being things that were not.(Romans 4:17 NIV)

    For in him we live and move and have our Being...(Acts 17:28)Creation is dependent on God for it’s very existence.

    By faith he(Moses) forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is Invisible( Hebrews 11: 27)

    Faith is only as good as the object of that faith.

  • maclouie Falconer, NY
    Aug. 27, 2013 4:58 a.m.

    There is much confusion as to what a Prophet is. Christopher B. especially. Fifteen men hold the office of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, just a President Obama holds the office POTUS. Just because you are POTUS does not make you the know it all of the United States. He does not even know how many States there are. Is he human? Is the Prophet human?

    When the POTUS says something covered by the Constitution some of us will know because some (unfortunately not all) know what the Constitution says.

    When the Prophet says something we can confirm what he says thru the Holy Ghost. No one is denied access to personal revelation if we live worthy to receive it (again some of us and not all). You know what he says comes from God when you confirm it thru your own prayers and/or the Prophet says "Thus saith the Lord...". Everything else is inspired counsel which we would be wise to follow. There are also the scriptures (a written document like the Constitution).

    If you feel disappointed that God has withheld his Holy Spirit and revelations/knowledge from you then I suggest you visit a mountain top nearest you.

  • EternalPerspective Eldersburg, MD
    Aug. 27, 2013 3:54 a.m.

    It's amazing to me the relentlessness of antagonists that fight against God's truths and Church upon the earth by using every "rational" argument to discount matters of faith and what is revealed by God, without sincere firsthand immersion and investigation of the very foundation under the microscope of such skepticism. Why such unprovoked zealousness in these movements?

    Faith in God and whether or not His Church exists upon the earth has never been based on sight or worldly measurements of truth. Hence, just as apples cannot be compared to oranges with exactness, so too, faith that comes only by spiritual avenues versus unbelief from worldly arguments, have no possibility of emphatically disproving the other vantage point.

    Faith is only proven by those whose life experiences have prepared an honest, sincere, and humble examination of truth that is not of the world. When such evolves to reflect a purity of intent to not only know for certain, but follow that which God is willing to give, then and only then, can the endless rhetoric of those wishing to renounce God and His works, transform into faith backed by a greater truth than the world can see.

  • mattrick78 Cedar City, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 1:07 a.m.

    @Christopher B

    In the grand scheme of things, the prophets and apostles will never lead us astray with regard to the plan of salvation.

  • michael.jensen369 Lethbridge, 00
    Aug. 27, 2013 12:26 a.m.

    Actually, I did answer his question, if you read what I said.

  • Aggielove Cache county, USA
    Aug. 26, 2013 9:23 p.m.

    Faith. It's the king pin to a religious life.

  • The Taxman Los Angeles, CA
    Aug. 26, 2013 8:31 p.m.


    It is impossible to ask a sincere "adult level" doctrinal question (that may stretch you) on this site. The DN moderators simply will not allow it. So we have to go with Chris B's simple question (which has not been answered).

    @Samuel B Martineau
    "Finally, it is easy to say things like "I am pretty sure that this organization can't defend all of the holes in doctrine and history." I could say the same thing about any church with little cost to myself."

    Just because something is easy to say (with little cost?), does not make it untrue. In fact, it can be true for all religions. Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    Aug. 26, 2013 7:42 p.m.

    I think Christopher has asked a simple, uncomplicated, sincere question. Nobody has answered it yet.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Aug. 26, 2013 6:40 p.m.

    Gotta agree with Chris B.

    If I were a believing Mormon, I would be asking constantly. "Is this your Opinion, or are you speaking Gods words"

    Because otherwise, it would just be the advice of a wise person. And not all advice from wise people is sound.

    And also, I have see the use of Religion as a way to control people. If you can convince someone your words came directly from God, it would carry much more weight. It would most likely be followed. Opinions? Not so much.

    Yes, I am skeptical. And with reason.

  • michael.jensen369 Lethbridge, 00
    Aug. 26, 2013 5:50 p.m.

    Bitterness, anger and holding grudges does not bring peace, and it makes many things hard to understand or accept. How can we recognize the truth, if we are blinded by our own bitterness, indifference, or perceived injustices wrought upon us? I know that President Monson is a prophet, and I know that because I sincerely asked God if he really was, and I got an answer. No one can convert you, or change your mind or ways of thinking, except you. I know for myself that it is true.

  • michael.jensen369 Lethbridge, 00
    Aug. 26, 2013 5:49 p.m.

    As for me, I've read a lot of the trash that's been thrown at past prophets. True, some of what they said was just not true. But you know what? The Church is still true. Why? Because we don't have faith in Joseph Smith, or Brigham Young, or Wilford Woodruff, or Thomas S. Monson. We have faith in Jesus Christ. Men, even prophets, cannot save us, or change our hearts to be more pure and obedient. They can only lead us. But Christ can change us, He can change our hearts, I've experienced it myself, I am not the same person I used to be, I am a much better and happier person.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    Aug. 26, 2013 5:47 p.m.

    So why would anyone listen to, or believe, a Mormon spokesman over a Catholic spokesman or any other spokesman including TV talking heads. Beware of dogma. If one can't find the answer with reason then there is good reason to question its reality. Anyone who claims to know, walk and talk with god should be viewed with great caution.

  • michael.jensen369 Lethbridge, 00
    Aug. 26, 2013 5:40 p.m.

    Christopher B, I would echo what Samuel B said, read Elder Andersen's talk, if you really want to know the truth, and not just fight, then that would help you understand. How do we know when what they say is true? Simple. We know the same way that we know that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, we know the same way that we know that the Book of Mormon is true, and we know the same way that we know that God hears and answers our sincere prayers. We know by the power of the Holy Ghost. Faith and doubt cannot coexist. You can have faith, and still ask hard questions, and when you do so in faith, you will profit from the answers to those questions. If you ask with doubt, nothing believing, well, you're out of luck. Almost nothing will satisfy you, it will only whet your taste for conflict.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    Aug. 26, 2013 5:38 p.m.

    Samuel B Martineau

    I agree - that statement applies to all religions, but this article was about the LDS defenders of the faith so that is why I mentioned it. But no other church so arrogantly claims that they are the one true church, as the mormon church does. It is like they are begging to be questioned, but when they are questioned they don't like it.

  • Henry Drummond San Jose, CA
    Aug. 26, 2013 5:14 p.m.

    I hope this proves to be a continuation of the changes I've seen over the last several years in Mormon Apologetics. I think if the article is right and these organizations are putting behind them the "militant" approach to apologetics, it will be far more effective. I think in the past these organizations spent way too much time criticizing the character of the critic at the expense of engaging the issues at hand. I look forward to revisiting their site.

  • bolshaya_kartina Boise, ID
    Aug. 26, 2013 5:13 p.m.

    Doesn't seem the sole conversation going on in the comments regarding Christopher B's poignant doubts has much to do with the article. However, I bet he could potentially gain a lot by reflecting upon the subjects covered by FAIR Mormon with an open mind and open heart. Or he could just say the same thing over and over.

    He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward.

  • Samuel B Martineau Bountiful, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 5:13 p.m.


    I agree that it would be more convenient for the church to not make prophetic claims. They wouldn't have "expectations" as you say.

    But it doesn't seem like much of a position to claim that there were prophets in the past who were vehicles of revealed religion. That people back then should have listened and obeyed even though, in the end, the prophets were men like any other men. And then say that today we shouldn't have to do the same thing because that would make us expect too much of our leaders and we might feel that they didn't live up.

    Religion isn't about what is convenient to believe. Why is it any more convenient to believe that a man died, rose three days later, and in the process saved the world from their sins?

    Finally, it is easy to say things like "I am pretty sure that this organization can't defend all of the holes in doctrine and history." I could say the same thing about any church with little cost to myself.

  • Samuel B Martineau Bountiful, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 5:02 p.m.

    Christopher B

    If you are really interested in understanding the doctrine of the LDS church and what constitutes doctrine as opposed to individual interpretation, etc. I would refer you to an excellent talk given by Elder Neil L. Andersen called "Trial of Your Faith." There is a section around the middle which gives some clear instruction on that matter. Among other things, he points out that

    "The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk. True principles are taught frequently and by many. Our doctrine is not difficult to find."

    I will simply add, that I don't understand everything about revelation, how it works, when the prophet speaks for himself, etc. But I do have a testimony of the truth of the church.

    In addition, your arguments don't just work against the LDS church. They would discount all revealed religion. It is a lot easier to believe in Moses when you don't live with him day to day, but someone had to at some point, and yet they believed.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    Aug. 26, 2013 5:01 p.m.

    I am pretty sure that this organization can't defend all of the holes in doctrine and history.

  • Mister J Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 4:56 p.m.

    re: Cats

    "Those who want to find truth must be willing to be humble and become spiritually mature."

    Is it really when you believe in the supernatural that others expect you to believe in?

    "The LDS Church has NEVER made the claim of infallibility."

    Does the claim 'we are the only true church on the face of the earth' lean toward infallibility or would that be just pride/arrogance?

  • Wastintime Los Angeles, CA
    Aug. 26, 2013 4:51 p.m.

    I seldom agree with Chris B, but he has a point here. How do we know what to believe without hindsight? I can flip a coin and be right 50% of the time. Also, why all the whitewashing of past history (like Polyandry)?

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    Aug. 26, 2013 4:49 p.m.

    The prophet sees god and talks to him, yet doesn't have a clear understanding. The prophet speaks for god so we must obey him... unless the next prophet says something different. This is the whole problem with claiming they are prophets and that they speak to god - they are putting those unrealistic expectations on themselves. If they would come out and admit they don't talk to god, and they get inspiration from the spirit like any good catholic or methodist then there would be no unrealistic expectations. The minute they say they are prophets or that they talk to god all bets are off and the expectations are naturally raised. If they really are prophets wouldn't it make sense to hold them to a higher standard then a leader of another religion who claims no such thing?

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 4:33 p.m.

    maclouie, so when your members say your prophets speak for God, how do you know when they are doing so?


    "A prophet is only a prophet when actually speaking at the direction and by the power of God."

    And how do you know when this is the case?

    Don't blame me.

    You Mormons are the ones who continually remind us non-Mormons that your prophets speak for God.

    So when do they and when don't they?

    And how do you know? Is it retroactive when something doesn't turn out right?

    Still now answering the question.

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 4:13 p.m.

    And if you're still holding to the "prophets speaking as a man" argument, how do you know when he is speaking as a man or for God?

    Or do you have to wait to see if the statement ever becomes controversial to then backdate your claim that "he was only speaking for man" at that time. But everything going forward its for God. Until something else becomes controversial/wrong.

  • Cats Somewhere in Time, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 4:11 p.m.

    Christopher B:

    This is where spiritual maturity comes into play. Those who want to find truth must be willing to be humble and become spiritually mature. To expect prophets to be perfect would be to deny them their own opportunity for growth along their own journey and it would disqualify pretty much all the prophets of the Bible since many of them made mistakes according to scripture.

    The LDS Church has NEVER made the claim of infallibility. Joseph Smith never claimed to be infallible and no subsequent president has made that claim.

    And..predictions are not the criteria of a prophet. Prophets are not fortune tellers. Some general authorities have at times expressed personal opinions which are their own and do not speak for God. A prophet is only a prophet when actually speaking at the direction and by the power of God. Proclamations are only valid when they come from the full First Presidency and Quorum of the twelve.

    We need to be spiritually mature enough to understand that we walk by faith and learn line upon line with the counsel from prophets who are directed by God for our benefit.

  • maclouie Falconer, NY
    Aug. 26, 2013 4:06 p.m.

    Christopher B: you expect to much from a human called to be a Prophet. "he will never say something incorrectly again as it relates to religion correct?" is a false and unrealistic expectation. No one has a perfect knowledge and understanding of God and His Kingdom nor His creations. Not even a prophet. Everyone's understandings and ability to articulate those and being understood by others is limited by the human condition. We all live by faith, even the Prophets.

    If I recall correctly, Joseph Smith, even after being called a Prophet, still asked questions and did not understand all that God said. What you say, Christopher B, is inaccurate mixed with a little truth. This is what leads us astray.

  • Europe Topeno, Finland
    Aug. 26, 2013 4:02 p.m.

    Dear Christopher,
    "thus sayeth the Laord" is what the prophet says.
    But, the main thing is that my testimony is not dependent on others...sayings/actions, but in my love to my Savior and redeemer

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 3:40 p.m.

    Here is one serious flaw in Mormons claims.

    Either their prophets speak for God or they don't. Either God is wrong sometimes or he isn't.

    Mormon prophets have made several flat out WRONG predictions over the years. I'm happy to list a few if you would like(and assuming the moderators post them)

    Mormons can't claim their prophets speak for God and then one by one retroactively say "he was speaking as a man that time" whenever the prophets statements turn out to be controversial, or flat out wrong.

    And if I'm not mistaken Mormons believe all Mormon apostles by being "prophets seers revelators" also speak for God. So really once an apostle become an apostle, he will never say something incorrectly again as it relates to religion correct?