Re: "'I'm here to ask you to go out and to make this work,'
Dean told the small but energetic group."Note the word
"small." It certainly denotes the level of interest in Democrat politics
here. It also wildly overstates the chances of making national Democrat politics
work for Utah.And, Dean, Dabakis, and their socialist ilk are
clearly committed to doing their level best to assure that will forever be the
adjective used to describe our party in Utah.Real people want more
than cynical political snake oil, more than disingenuously allegations of a
false compatibility between Church doctrine and the national Democratic
platform.What we want is actual compatibility. Which we'll
never find among the tenets of the national party.So, you can waste
our time and money on the likes of Howard Dean 'til the cows come home.
They'll be there a long, long time before real Utahns.
@ procurator: The leadership of the LDS Church has stated - publicly and
frequently - that no one party represents perfectly the ideals of the Church and
that faithful members can belong to any political party and still be upholding
the values of the Church. Do you disagree with the official
I support that all citizens of Utah to register and vote, we need everyone
involved to stop government carnage and expansion to deny us our country and our
rights and our liberties.To register you do not have to commit to
party affiliation, and its a lie for anyone to say you should. Remain open and
use common sense and thought and foremost do read the Constitution in its
entirety, its amendments, and the Bill of Rights, every thing you need to know
about government and who is in control is in those documents. Any contradictions
are a no go legislation.To preserve this country and our culture and
unity I urge people to register but claim no political affiliation and be an
informed voter read all information and pay attention to what is not said and
question everything.The democrats and Republican are the enemy of
this country hoping to bend minds and ideas to conform to government control.
Remember, we the people are the governemnt and politicians will come and go but
our democratic republic will last forever if we choose to keep it out of the
hands of politicians. The power is ours to keep or loose.
I thank Heavenly Father that I have the state assistance for my severely
handicapped son, here in California. Thanks to the Democratic Party. And I
consider myself very conservative.
Good. There is lots of griping and posturing about this politician, that
MaudineI believe that the offical non partisan position of the LDS
Church, as well as most any other tax exempt religious organization, has to be
that way. If the Church were ever to be seen as a partisan tool, the tax exempt
status could be in jeopardy. That's why the meeting houses cannot be used
for any partisan politics. However, ask yourself. If President Monson, or any
other President of the Church were to attend the political conventions of both
the Republican and Democrat parties, which one do you feel he would be most
comfortable at? I have no doubt that the Democrat convention platform would
have much more in it that goes against basic LDS values than the Republican one
would. OK let the battle begin posters.
@ happy2bhere: So you think the leaders of the LDS Church are willing to sell
their principles to save a few tax dollars? Wow. What an insulting idea.
Political neutrality of the LDS Church has not always been the case.The
Brethren didn't much care for FDR and made it known.The members were
in favor of old age insurance and farmers are generally strong Democrats.New IRS rules and a growing church tend to encourage silence from the
Brethren.Some issues are safe, like MX missiles and nuclear waste.But others, like ERA, same-gender marriage, the right to an abortion,
amnesty...will have the Church show tolerance rather than activism. These are
moral issues with deep doctrinal opposition, but don't expect the Brethren
to take a stand.
Kalindra,No, they're not selling their principles to save tax
dollars.They're simply deciding not to use their positions as
leverage to further their political beliefs.Two very different
concepts. Hopefully you can understand the difference. But based on your
comment, my hope likely won't be fulfilled.
"Nearly 50 people attended Howard Dean's presentation Monday at Salt
Lake Community College..." ... "'If you look at teachings of the
LDS, there is no reason that 98 percent of them should be voting
Republican,' Dean said."---------------I've never been a member of either the Republican or Democrat parties and
have examined the platforms and voted for candidates of both. I've lived
in or been based in Utah for more than 60 years and have extensive exposure to
LDS doctrine.From that experience I feel comfortable in stating that
if the "nearly 50 people" (with that few, why not give an exact number)
who attended this "rally" actually think they can persuade people who,
ostensibly, believe in the "teachings of the LDS", that those teachings
conform to or even tolerate the deeply, one might even say, religious devotion
the Democrat Party has for the idea of killing unborn children or the
equivalence of traditional and same-sex marriage, he and they are sorely
mistaken.For example, killing an unborn child simply for being
inconvenient and unwanted, the reason for the VAST majority of the killings,
will **never** be acceptable by God, and hopefully never by the LDS church.
KalindraBoy you sure don't seem to understand the laws about
taxes and seperation of church and state. A church has no choice but to keep
neutral or they could lose their tax exempt status from the U.S. government.
Principles of the leaders of a church have nothing to do with that. Your point
seems to be that the LDS Church should go ahead and become political and endorse
political parties and candidates, and pay taxes, rather than stay publically
neutral in their beliefs and save, as you put it "a few tax dollars".
I was reading an interesting story about Wilfred Woodruff. It seems that 120
years ago most members were Democrats. That party was slightly more favorable
to the Church and Utah Statehood. The Prophet suggested that it would be a good
idea that members also join the Republicans. It was clear that until the other
party also had a political motive they would oppose any progress. Seems like a lot of groups should consider that being a voting block can limit
your effectiveness. In cities like Detroit and Chicago, corruption and
misgovernment abound. That could change overnight except for partisan block
I would happily join the Democrat party when they alter their platform to
support limited government, conservative fiscal policy, right to life, personal
freedom, personal responsibility.When that happens Howard, come sign
@Samson,Some day they may support being fiscally conservative. Some day they may support a smaller government.Some day they make think
ending the life of a baby is wrong.But personal responsibility?Not going to happen.
@procuradorfiscalA party that believes in taking care of the poor, the
sick, the elderly, is entirely consistent with Biblical teachings.
@ Atl134, Taking care of the poor, the sick or the needy and the elderly! We all
agree but creating dependency is NOT consistent with Biblical teachings!
That's why the LDS church has a fast offering based welfare system and
recipients are required to work for what they receive. Now if the government
would do that, much good would be accomplished. Detroit is what we get when
Democrats take care of the "poor", the sick and the elderly except they
become permanently poor, permanently needy. Some of us can see the difference
and some can't or won't!
Howard Dean says, "If you look at the teachings of the LDS Church there is
no reason that 98% of them should be voting Republican." I guess Mr. Dean
has not read "The Family a Proclamation to the World" recently. I guess
he has not paid much attention to General Conference where members are
encouraged to be self-reliant. This flies in the face of Pres. Obama's who
has swelled the food stamp rolls and believes that more gov't oversight and
a bigger gov't and more spending is the correct answer. As an LDS
Republican I am happy where I am at and I won't be jumping to the
Democratic Party anytime soon.
To "atl134" you are only telling a half truth. Is a political party
that believes that other people should care for the poor, sick, and elderly
consistent with Biblical teachings?Can you name a time when Christ
or any prophet from the OT ever told people to petition the government for
assistance?Christ taught that you as an individual must help your
neighbor, and that you as an individual should care for the sick and the
elderly. Turning that responsibility over to a government official is contrary
to Christ's teachings.
Re: ". . . faithful members can belong to any political party and still be
upholding the values of the Church."I not only agree, I'm
an illustration of the principle -- an hereditary LDS Democrat, probably since
before you were born.Now, belonging to a political party, and
supporting its views and candidates, are two entirely different matters.My Party has not recently, or consistently, earned my vote. Dr.
Dean's speech indicates it has no real intent of doing so anytime soon,
stressing political tactics and propaganda packaging, over the content of the
Party's message.Re: "A party that believes in taking care
of the poor, the sick, the elderly, is entirely consistent with Biblical
teachings."No argument there. But, you can't honestly be
suggesting that party is the Democratic Party. Or Republicans, though
small-government Republicanism has a greater chance than Democrat socialism.Nothing in the last 100 years has been more corrosive of essential
American freedoms, prosperity, aspirations, faith, decency, honesty, or
happiness, than socialistic Democrat political positions and tactics.Notwithstanding, we live in hope!
@atl134"A party that believes in taking care of the poor, the
sick, the elderly, is entirely consistent with Biblical teachings"But they accomplish their purposes by confiscating the wealth of others.
Creating taxes to fund social programs is not found in the scriptures. Taking
care of the poor, the sick, the elderly has always been voluntary not
compulsive, in accordance with free agency.
@redshirt1701If you knew what it's like to have a permanently
handicapped child and hope to get compassionate service on a needed consistent
basis, you would find out that even the most committed home teachers could never
do a fraction of what is needed, to keep your marriage sane. (And nobody should
expect them to.) That is the reason for my first comment.
Re: "Can you name a time when Christ or any prophet from the OT ever told
people to petition the government for assistance?"Can you name a
time when they said not to?Since you mention the OT:Leviticus: "And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not
wholly reap the corners of thy field ... And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard,
neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for
the poor and stranger." - Deuteronomy: "When thou cuttest down thine
harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go
again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the
widow ... When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs
again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the
widow."Didn't these laws force the owners of the fields,
the vineyards, and the olive orchards to be charitable? Didn't this
"forced charity" rob the owners of the extra profit they could have made
from the unreaped corners, the sheaves in the fields, the ungathered grapes, and
the unplucked olives?
Re:morpunktYour case is one that no political party or ideology
would argue with. There clearly is a line, which when crossed, society needs to
assist. Utah is a Republican dominated state and yet we have public assistance
programs. Some of them quite expensive. We also have huge private assistance
programs. No one party has the corner on compassion.The differences
come to play when we attempt to draw that line. What is the appropriate amount
of unemployment benefits to give? One week? two weeks? 99 weeks? No one is
arguing about the benefit. It is an insurance policy that is bought and paid
for. The problem arises when the benefits derived far outweigh the investment.
One party may call upon the collective to make up the difference and the other
may not. Where is the line? Does a society have an obligation to make you
whole when a life misfortune happens?The benefits you and your child
are provided...Do those benefits go beyond the bare necessity? Well...there
might be some disagreement as to what constitutes a necessity. Isn't that a fair discussion to have?
To "morpunkt" it is a sad life you have. The bigger question is that
knowing that you are an LDS member, why do you feel that it is ok to force
others to help you through government programs. What that means is that through
the government programs that you love, the government has to raise taxes on
everybody to pay for your care. Isn't the use of force to compel somebody
to be good against the principels of the LDS teachings?To
"Lightbearer" the Apostle Timothy did preach that the government was not
a source of assistance. See 1 Timothy 5:8 "But if any provide not for his
own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is
worse than an infidel."If you look at the teachings of Jesus in
the NT, he continually tells people to help their neighbor directly. He
doesn't tell his followers to just donate some money or food and call it a
day. Looking at the story of the rich young man, the young man was told to give
his money to the poor, not the government.
I don't see President Monson being comfortable in a meeting with a party
which attacks and degrades women, debates whether rape is legitimate or not, or
worships a cigar-smoking loudmouth on AM radio. I don't see President
Monson agreeing much with folks who wish to "shut down the government",
attack folks on food stamps (yet extend subsidizes to big agriculture), and who
wish to deny health care to millions of Americans. I don't see President
Monson saying racist things about Mr. Gill or Obama, laughing at a rodeo clown
with our President's face on it, or supporting wars and torture of
foreigners. In fact, the GOP has even gone against the official stance of the
LDS church on the issue of immigration. Even the GOP's stance
on abortion disagrees with the LDS church's stance. Abortion shouldn't
be abolished. Even the LDS Church believes that abortion may be used in some
cases. literally, the only stance that the LDS Church and GOP have
in common is the marriage issue. All the rest? The GOP has never
been further away from the teachings of the church.
Oh Oh, please let me hit this nice fat softball out of the park. Always happy to
help out our peaceable, loving democrat friends, with their future prospects,
just like they're always willing to help us. I know
I'm not from Utah, but this issue has a national view. First thing you can
do, is ALWAYS send Howard Dean to whip up your leftist support. That guy is a
national treasure....for the GOP. Kind of reminds you of that good ole boy Joe
Biden. Second thing to do, as referred to earlier, bust out and even make a big
printing order for the "Proclamation to the World" LDS document, whose
teachings and claims line up so nicely with DNC national policy and platforms.
So many impressionable LDS members here, who are looking for that kind of
guidance. Third item, (will lump a bunch together to save time and words)
exercise more leftist/democrat thinking, by raising taxes for schools, so you
can go from 24th in national performance to 27th. Confiscate more private land
in the name of environmentalism and left wing geniuses like Robert Redford! I
could go on, but this is a good start.
promotes voter registration? This sounds to me like code words for voter fraud
and that would be consistent with what the democrats do in other states. In
other words seek out illegals and register them ....register dead people ....
basically everything ACORN was doing. You can bet that the democrats will be
focusing also on the college campus's (not BYU) to attempt to draw in the
gullible young college kids to socialism. Does it sound like I think Howard Dean
is a low life scum bag socialist progressive?? I do.
Funny what Dean said. After the last Democratic Convention where God was booed,
I'm almost insulted at his comment about Latter-day Saints being Democrat.
Maybe they should have had their event at the Alta Club and invited only the
chosen, selected few to attend.
@Redshirt1701I'd rather vote for a gov't system to help with
something that individuals are unwilling to do adequately on their own.@MountanmanBusinesses create dependence by providing inadequate wages.
Walmart's great at this, paying employees so little they still qualify for
food stamps... which tend to get spent at Walmart. Whether people are getting
aid from gov't or charities doesn't change the idea that they're
still dependent on something.@zoar63"in accordance with
free agency."Free agency is what leads to working conditions in
the 1800s. A time with no weekends, no 40 hour workweeks, no benefits, no
minimum wage, no occupational safety standards, even slavery. Then we regulated
things. The free agency system just doesn't work so well sometimes... Besides, you all want to ban abortion, marijuana (maybe alcohol too),
gay marriage, and justified Romneycare mandates because it was state level. Not
exactly consistent on the agency thing.@all three of youPeople
have different views over how to go about achieving moral (and Biblical)
principles. It's not like there's any shortage of different views of
the Bible, we have 100+ denominations I would think.
Re: "No, they're not selling their principles to save tax dollars.
They're simply deciding not to use their positions as leverage to further
their political beliefs."So when they say, "Principles
compatible with the gospel are found in the platforms of all major political
parties," they don't really mean it?Are we to understand
that the statement "Principles compatible with the gospel are found in the
platforms of all major political parties" is actually a kind of secret code
for "Everybody knows that the Republican party is the only American party
whose platform is compatible with the gospel, but discretion dictates that we
don't come right out and say it, because, although we're not really
impartial, we have various motives for wanting to preserve at least the
appearance of impartiality"?If that's the case, then
"Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This
people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me."
@redshirt1701I see. You feel my cause is just. But, you just don't
want to pay for it. Got it.
@atl134Thank you. I couldn't have said it any better.
To "morpunkt" my spouse and I have helped many people in your situation.
Don't you go lecturing me about what I do and don't do. My spouse
worked for several months for free helping a neighbor clean offices so that they
could live a more sane life and pay for medical bills. I recently spent a day
chopping down trees for a retired neighbor because their children are unwilling
to help.You are the one who is on record as stating that you want to
force others to pay for your needs and care for you.The question
still stands. How do you reconcile your beliefs in the LDS church with your
desire to force others to do good?
"Businesses create dependence by providing inadequate wages"This is where a huge line of disagreement is for me and some of the people on
this forum. Labor is the ultimate free market experience. A laborer brings to the market a skill set. The skill set has a value
based on several factors. The ROI on the laborer's applied skills and the
going market rate as determined by supply and demand, among other factors. The
compensation will be capped at the lowest possible level that allows
procurement.When we shop for a hammer. We look at what the hammer
brings to us in terms of value and find the cheapest one adequate to the need.
If I am a casual sporadic user, a cheap knock-off type hammer will do. If I am
a professional framer, I will spend considerably more. The labor market works
like this.Walmart workers are simply in a market flooded with
individuals that can fulfill the function required. The skill set is common.
There is little in the way of advanced, more uncommon skills needed. I have
seen that Walmart employs people that may have difficulty getting work
Maverick,I don’t see you imaging Pres. Monson on anything.But
then, you think 43% is a majorityMorpunkt,I have no problem
with society helping with you child, but you cannot tell the millions BO has
added to the foodstamp rolls are severely handicapped. You cannot tell me the
millions he tells to go ahead and not work for a seemingly unending period and
we’ll continue to provide unemployment compensation are severely
handicapped. You cannot tell me the overall government dependency he advocates
is because we are all severely handicapped. Well, maybe on the last one you
can, since we re-elected him.atl134Walmart pays MUCH higher
wages in ND because they have to in order to attract employees; BO has made low
wages standard in many parts of the country with his disastrous economic
policies. the major areas of job growth under BO have been in low-end and
To "Scoundrel" Megan McCain and Abby Huntsman are what is wrong with the
GOP. They represent just a moderate version of the Democrats. They are taking
us down the same path, just at a slower pace. If you look at the races where
Republicans have had large margins over Democrats, they have been by Republicans
that are not just moderate liberals. The big wins have come from highly