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Published: Monday, Aug. 19 2013 12:00 p.m. MDT

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Snack PAC
Olympus Cove, Utah

Spokane Ute

"Neither Utah or BYU have beaten a top 25 team in quite some time."

That's only true for Utah.

As far as AP Top 25 teams go:

BYU beat #16 Utah State in 2012
and
BYU beat #18 Utah in 2009

As far as Utah is concerned, you're correct. The Utes haven't beaten an AP Top 25 team since the Sugar Bowl.

CordonBleu wasn't gloating over victories versus "ELITE" Oregon and UCLA teams; he was simply pointing out the obvious fallacy and hyperbole in your argument that "When you have USC, UCLA, Stanford, Oregon, etc. on your schedule year in and year out, you don't need any more elite opponents", because every one of those teams has had down years recently in which they were decidedly NOT ELITE teams.

So, where exactly are all of these so-called "ELITE" teams that you play year in and year out in the PAC?

STuFOO
Korea, AE

I love that ute fans have moved on....

Moved on so much that they must come back to every BYU article to tell byu fans why they are better.

BYU is better. PERIOD.

Better as a school.
Better as a place to go to school.
Better basketball.
Better other sports.
Better fans.
Better situation.

...and on the 21st, we'll be a better football team.

I don't need to go to a ute article and post there to know it.

But what's even better is when u fans come to BYU articles to tell BYU fans that they are arrogant and self righteous.

(see the problem yet uties?)

If I had moved on, I wouldn't ever read another BYU article let alone comment on one.

I don't care what is going on at the u. I can't name one player (now that Star is gone), and I don't know who they play this year.

If it weren't for ute trolls coming to BYU articles to pound their chests, I would think what half the country thinks and wouldn't know u had a football team at all.

Y's little brother
Sandy, UT

spokaneute

"If you actually think that a 13-0 run wouldn't get Utah into a playoff, I have some Ocean front property here in Spokane that you might be interested in."

If you think that the Utes are capable of running the table playing five conference teams that actually finish in the AP Top 25, I have some ocean front property here in west Box Elder county that you might be interested in.

The truth is, pre-season Top 25 rankings are meaningless. USC was pre-season AP #1 last year, and finished 7-6, and unranked, after getting stomped in the Sun Bowl by a team that BYU dominated on their home turf.

With a gift-wrapped PAC 12 South there for the taking in 2011, U couldn't get past 10-loss Colorado on your home field.

Wake up and smell the coffee. After two seasons in the PAC, you still haven't beaten a conference foe with a winning record, let alone a ranked PAC opponent... sheeesh!

Steven S Jarvis
Orem, UT

Top Ten Wins of the Mendenhall Era (My opinion)

#1 at #3 Oklahoma 2009 17-16
#2 Beat #18 Oregon State 44-20, 2009 Las Vegas Bowl
#3 59-0 UCLA 2008
#4 OT Win vs. #21 Utah 26-23 2009
#5 31-17 @TCU 2006
#6 33-31 @Utah 2006
#7 38-8 Oregon at Las Vegas Bowl 2006
#8 17-10 Utah 2007
#9 27-22 TCU 2007
#10 6-3 Utah State 2012

I would consider the Mendenhall era recent. BYU beat three ranked teams in 2009, the best year probably for Bronco. Last year they beat USU which ended ranked and barely out of a BCS game (Northern Ill. was barely ahead).

I think the PAC as a league is once again overrated just as they were last year. If they start winning more than half their bowl games consistently instead of their embarrassment last year, that perception should change.

WACPaddingOurSchedule
pocatello, ID

LonestarRunner
Salt Lake City, UT
WACpaddled

What are you talking about?

There are lots of good players who choose to play at BYU overall schools from the PAC, including Utah.

Which school had the highest ranked draftee in the most recent NFL draft?

Utah's recent success in the NFL draft is dwarved by BYU's long-term success in the NFL draft.

Arizona and ASU may have won national championships in multiple sport since 1979, but so has BYU, including a football national championship, which Arizona and ASU have never even sniffed.

If you don't want to be slammed for citing BYU's irrelevant all-time record versus Colorado, then why post it?

Utah also has losing record versus Colorado, but unlike BYU, Utah's most recent loss to Colorado wasn't over 60 years ago, it was only 2 years ago.

BYU's all-time record versus Colorado is about as relevant as Utah's all-time record versus the YMCA, 1-7.

_________

Sigh. Another BYU fan with tunnel vision. Perhaps you should ask the OTHER BYU fan about that in a previous post.
Long term success? Utah has more drafted players than BYU going back decades, according to pro-football-reference.

Uteology
East Salt Lake City, Utah

@Uteanymous
During the Bronco/Kyle era (which is when TCU entered the MWC), Utah had one good year, and little else.

-----------

Wrong!

Your same old stats, which tries to equate 2 top 25 finishes is equal to two undefeated top 5 finishes with BCS wins. Nice spin!

AP Top 25 in MWC:

Utah (4):
2009 18 10-3
2008 2 13-0
2004 4 12-0
2003 21 10-2

BYU (5):
2009 12 11-2
2008 25 10-3
2007 14 11-2
2006 16 11-2
2001 2512-2

MWC Tiles:
1. TCU 5 (Rose)
2. Utah 4 (Fiesta and Sugar)
3. BYU 4 (Vegas)

Last 3 years in the MWC:
1. TCU 36-3 (lost to #@2 Utah, #7 Boise, #5 Oklahoma)
2. Utah 33-6 (lost to @#6 TCU, @#12 BYU, @#11 Oregon, #2 TCU, #9 Boise, @#26 ND)
3. BYU 28-11 (lost to Arizona (8-5), FSU (7-6), @USU (4-8), @AFA, Nevada, etc.)

Since TCU joined? So what? BYU also finished #5 in MWC during the period, Utah never finished lower than 3rd.

utahcountyute
Cedar Hills, UT

But I thought byU was already in the nation's Elite? They actually have to win? lol

Not gonna happen this year.

Gus Tunkle
Pleasant Grove, UT

I think that the BYU Cougars are super cool. If I could I would grow another mouth to cheer twice as loud!! Go Cougars!! :)

TrueBlue
Orem, UT

Uteology/utahcountyute

Utah fans are forced to concentrate on minutia, like head-to-head versus BYU, and cherry-picked wins over supposedly good power conference teams, because the Utes simply aren't good enough to ranked at the end of the season.

Regardless of how U spin it, these facts remain:

AP Top 25 Finishes Lifetime
BYU 17
Utah 5

AP Top 25 Finishes Bronco/Kyle era
Bronco 4
Kyle 2

The sad truth for U is this:

IF the Utes were even half as good as Utah fans pretend they are, the Utes would have finished in the AP Top 25 more than FIVE times in their entire history.

The record speaks for itself:

BYU ranked in 22% of all 1054 AP polls - 11 (Preseason), 17 (Final), 236 Weeks (Total)
Utah ranked in 7% of all 1054 AP polls - 2 (Preseason), 5 (Final), 77 Weeks (Total)

SportsFan
Orem, UT

WACpaddled:

"Long term success? Utah has more drafted players than BYU going back decades, according to pro-football-reference."

Remind us how many Utah players have been NFL and Super Bowl MVPs.

-------------

Uteology

"BYU also finished #5 in MWC during the period, Utah never finished lower than 3rd."

NOPE! Unfortunately for U, it was BYU that never finished lower than 3rd, and the Utes that finished 4th in 2005.

The real results:

BYU finished in a 3-way tie for 3rd in 2010, losing to Air Force, but beating SDSU.
TCU 8-0
Utah 7-1
AFA 5-3
BYU 5-3
SDSU 5-3

Utah(4-4) finished 4th in 2005, behind BYU(5-3) 2nd.

Overall during the Bronco/Kyle:

Bronco's average MWC finish: 2.0 (2, 1, 1, 3, 2, 3)
Kyle's average MWC finish: 2.7 (4, 3, 3, 1, 3, 2)

Uteology
East Salt Lake City, Utah

@SportsFan

Utah(4-4) finished 4th in 2005, behind BYU(5-3) 2nd.

--------------

Great but how did we do overall and head to head? In 2005, BYU was clearly not the better team:

* Utah finished 7-5 ahead of 6-6 BYU and CSU
* Beat BYU @LES
* Beat #24 Georgia Tech in a bowl game

Remember you also defined 8-5 and 5-7 as a bottom feeder.

So in 2010 why are you defining a 7-5 team as 3rd best team when TCU 11-1, Utah 10-3, AFA 9-4, and SDSU 9-4 were clearly much better teams.

Marked it Down
Park City, UT

Uteology

"So in 2010 why are you defining a 7-5 team as 3rd best team when TCU 11-1, Utah 10-3, AFA 9-4, and SDSU 9-4 were clearly much better teams."

Nice dodge, but the discussion was about conference finish, not who was better.

In 2005, BYU tied with AFA and SDSU, and split with them head-to-head, losing to AFA, but beating SDSU, so in conference standings, the three remained tied.

If SDSU was clearly better, how did BYU beat the Aztecs head-to-head? Doesn't that fly in the face of the argument Utah fans are constantly making that head-to-head trumps all?

Utah didn't beat #24 Georgia Tech, Utah beat unranked Georgia Tech, a team that only garnered 1 vote in the final AP poll (tied with Utah and 3 other teams at 38th), and only 5 votes in the final Coaches poll (34th).

BYU, on the other hand, lost a close game to #25/#25 California(8-4), a team that was obviously MUCH better than the bowl opponent Utah faced.

Better team doesn't always equate to conference/overall record.

Average MWC finish
Bronco = 2.0
Kyle = 2.7

Spokane Ute
Spokane, WA

Y's Little Brother

News Flash, neither has BYU. Did I say Utah had beaten conference foe with a winning record? NO. Did I say it's time for Utah to start beating the better teams in the conference? Yes. You are trying to pick an arguement, and you don't even know what to argue about, nice.

Snack Pack

Again, BYU hasn't beaten a top 25 team either. Where are the elite PAC 12 schools? Why look in the top 25, and the top 5 for that matter. Last year the PAC 12 finished with #2, #5 and #19. The conference was ranked #2 or #3 in every ranking system. Look at the conferences non-conference winning %. If you can't admit that the PAC 12 is a premier conference you either hate Utah, or don't know college football. I believe it's a combination of the two; that's quite apparent. Isn't it snack time yet guy?

STuFOO
Korea, AE

Love how u fans feel that the past ten years means more than the previous 40.

The only thing that matters is last year, and the last game.

Yes, you beat us, but we did better overall.

This year we will beat you and still do better overall.

U fans, take a close look at your current situation. It isn't new. u have been in decline since 2008. u aren't picked to do well this year either. Next year you will probably be the same. The year after u will have a new coach, but that doesn't mean u'll be any better.

The only people who don't get it is u. This is u'r new normal.

#1 SLC Sports Fan
Salt Lake City, UT

Uteanymous

Drive up to Rexburg, Idaho sometime and see what an LDS Church university should really look like and behave like. Disagree or not this is what some in senior LDS Church leadership want for BYU.

Rockwell
Baltimore, MD

Spokane Ute

"Again, BYU hasn't beaten a top 25 team either."

Newsflash:

BYU beat #16/#17 Utah State last year; whether U want to acknowledge it or not, BYU beat a Top 25 team in 2012 (which, if you do the math, was last season).

BYU also beat #18/#18 Utah in 2009. Are you really going to argue that Utah wasn't a Top 25 team in 2009?

That's TWO Top 25 teams BYU has beaten since Utah's Sugar Bowl win over Alabama.

In the mean time, Utah hasn't beaten a single AP Top 25 team in the last four seasons.

It doesn't matter where the PAC 12 finished last season, since Utah didn't play #2 Oregon or #5 Stanford, and there's no guarantee that any PAC 12 team Utah faces in the future will be ranked. Every season is different. Pre-season, Utah was projected to play #1 USC last year. The Utes ended up playing a 7-6, unranked USC team.

As they say, don't count your chickns, er SOS, before the end of the season. Pre-season rankings are meaningless. Final rankings are the ONLY rankings that count.

Spokane Ute
Spokane, WA

@Rockwell

You are right, I stand corrected. Utah has beaten BYU three years in row though, right? That's a stat that never comes up in these discussions by BYU fans. Now that's curious?

Let's get this season started, we both need some new amunition. Both schools need to start beating the good schools on there schedule, consistently. I think we can both agree to that.

BlueCoug
Orem, UT

#1 SLC Sports Fan

You obviously never attended a football or basketball game at Ricks before the school dropped intercollegiate athletics - Ricks College fans were just as passionate about their teams as BYU fans are about theirs, in fact, many of those former Ricks College fans are now BYU fans, including three of my children who earned Associates Degrees from Ricks/BYU-I and then earned their Bachelors Degrees from BYU.

There is a special spirit at BYU-I, but that same spirit, in many respects, can also be found at BYU.

btw, I see many in senior LDS Church leadership attending football and basketball games at BYU, and for the most part, they're very pleased with the overall positive influence BYU athletics have had in advancing the mission of the church.

Uteology
East Salt Lake City, Utah

@Marked it Down

Nope, that wasn't no my original comment. I said the pace horse for the WAC was BYU.

I said the pace horses for MWC was clearly Utah and TCU based on NFL talent, BCS games, and "more importantly" BCS wins (aka big wins). Which was the same argument made in the article to support BYU.

Only in Provo is 7-5 team better than a 9-4 team playing a similar SOS.

Only in Provo is getting beat at home by your rival then losing to a #31 ranked team in a bowl game proves that you are better:

2005: Utah (7-5) 41 @BYU (6-6) 31

Utah 38 GTech 10 (pre bowl AP #24 - post bowl AP unranked)

BYU 28 Cal 35 (pre bowl AP #31 - post bowl AP #25)

TrueBlue
Orem, UT

Uteology

Since when are you the authority to decide what criteria is used to determine the "pace horse(s)" for the MWC.

Bowl games are only one criteria. Conference championships and Top 25 rankings are equally, if not more, important.

It's laughable that you insist on using pre-bowl and pre-season rankings for opponents, but choose to completely ignore final rankings.

Based on AP Top 25 finishes from 2005 to 2010, while BYU, TCU and, Utah were all in the MWC, Utah was clearly only the 3rd best team in the conference:
TCU 6
BYU 4
Utah 2

Based on conference championships:
TCU 4
BYU 2
Utah 1

Utah had one great year with their BCS bowl winning team and a Top 5 finish, but BYU had three very good years with 11-2 seasons and three Top 15 finishes.

You can claim that 11-2 isn't all that great, but to put an 11-win season into perspective, aside from Utah's 2004 and 2008 undefeated seasons, Utah has never had another 11-win season.

In the final Sagarin ratings for 2005
#51 Utah(7-5) #76 SOS
#55 BYU(6-6) #65 SOS

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