Reasonable Person: If he wants to see the ogden he can go to Provo as that
temple was the same design
@FiloActually it is biblical. I would suggest Matthew 26:7-12,
wherein Christ's disciples were upset with the woman who they claim wasted
a valuable oil by pouring it on Christ's head. They made the same argument
that you are making, i.e. she shouldn't have wasted something so expensive,
but should have sold it and given the money to the poor.Christ's response? "Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a
good work upon me. For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not
always."There are additional corollary principles in teachings
by Christ in the Bible that if those who are hungry and thirsty will turn to
him, they will never again be hungry or thirsty (i.e. spiritually filled).These temples and churches are good works wrought unto God, and they are
designed to provide spiritual sustenance to those who are hungry and thirsty
that they may be filled.i.e. "Biblical"
Snowman, it's not my money not going toward your temples that was the
point. Your temples are beautiful and functionary for your religion. It's that your money isn't going toward preserving or restoring
other historical sites and far needier projects. See the previous posts about
the MMM ancestors, for one example.The second point is that it
isn't Biblical. My LDS family keep trying to point to all their Biblical
observings. This is not one.
@Filo DoughboyWhile the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
does spend much money to help the needy in the world, much of that need is
caused by spiritual poverty. Temples, chapels, and missionary efforts, etc.,
are all part of a great coordinated effort to take "the slums out of the
people" so they can "take themselves out of the slums." (Ezra Taft
Benson quote)Our Church leaders are very sensitive to the need for
balance in our efforts to raise mankind up from all forms of poverty.
Reasonable Person: The Ogden Temple will be different than it was.Filo Doughboy: If you are not a member its not your money so why complain. And
the Church helps all over the world
Why LDS spend so much $ on their buildings when there is so much need in the
world is not a Biblical doctrine.It should embarrass a Christian,
not be a point of pride.
@snowmanThe point made by Most Truthful, was that the interesting
architecture of the Ogden Temple has been destroyed -- and the results will be
"the same design as all the rest".
I'm a bit unsure of the public benefit from converting the structure from a
tabernacle to a temple. The article mentions the public events for which the
tabernacle was used, which was a nice thing for the community. My understanding,
however, is that a temple is closed to the general public and access is limited
to those with a temple recommend. Where's the community benefit there? And
given the number of temples here in Utah and elsewhere, why would LDS members
choose to travel to the one in Provo rather than a local temple when they have
need of services?
I just wasted my time reading bulloney from folks who are clueless about
economic development. I can find countless American cities where the downtown
core is terrible and crime-ridden. Thanks to the LDS Church, downtown Provo now
gets a huge shot in the arm. Time was when old buildings were just bull-dozed
or worse they were just abandoned. Sadly for so many ill-informed folks who
post on these Deseret News sites, you are so blinded by your own ignorance you
have no clue just how this restored (temple) structure will re-vitalize the
central core of the city.
@Most Truthful and PatrioticDid you seriously use Monticello, Utah
as an example of poor economic growth related to temples? You realize it is a
community of only 2,000 people right and it is in the middle of nowhere. Anyone
expecting Monticello to "take off" is out of their mind.Provo on the other hand is quite different with a population over 100,000 with
another another million within 90 minutes. The current Provo Temple is one of
the busiest temples in the world. The new Provo City Center will no doubt be
very busy as well. The advantage it has is that it is downtown next to
shopping, restaurants, etc.. that will drive a lot of traffic for temple-goers.
This will be a destination temple for visitors out of town (graduations,
weddings, tourists, etc...). This is also a historic building and will
definitely see a lot of weddings (which means local restaurants will be hosting
wedding parties). This will be a good deal for downtown Provo without a doubt.
Yes, I know they are redoing the Ogden temple. They've removed the
interesting, mid-century modernism and it will be a clone of the white temples
being built elsewhere.ulvegaardYour recitation of Ogden
history is a bit scrambled. Ogden, not your church, has rebuilt the downtown
twice since the temple was built.
As an LDS person, I still feel it's a little condescending to the non-LDS
community to assume that they will be happy for the changes. I wish the Church
could have built a new venue on some of that land for entertainment and culture
that this tabernacle provided for so many years. It seems presumptuous to say
that a temple can take the place of the old tabernacle and the functions it
provided the community. We are building something that now excludes a portion
of the downtown community - unless I missed something and there is also going to
be such an entertainment venue. I miss those old days enjoying performances at
the old tabernacle. And I have no qualms with putting up another House of the
Lord. It's His House. And maybe the peaceful surroundings might touch
some needy soul. But some of the language we're using to justify saving
it might be a little out of touch.
I'd prefer a tabernacle. The old one served the church and community well.
Ditto, DUP comments about historic preservations. But preserving a
massacre site will not increase any economic or prestige points. It was the
ethical thing to do. Just took almost 140 years to do it properly.Kudos to Pres. Hinckley for aggressively moving to preserve what no presidents
from BYoung forward did. Now I hope those families can get permission to
restore the torn down (repeatedly) Cross on the cairn. That will complete full
restoration of U.S. Maj. Carolton's burial efforts and memorial. Nothing
less is sufficient.
the saddest thing about the Monticello Temple is that it only does 4 sessions
per day 10, 12, 5 and 7 Tuesday thru Friday with there being for more sessions
on Saturday at 8, 10, 12 noon and 2. Makes me wonder how full the session are.
This could be why they area has gone down hill - also there is no clothing
rental or cafeteria service at this temple.
Provo could have a cool college downtown feel like Ann Arbor's Main Street,
where people would actually want to go, if they put in a little effort in and
made the place fun.
LDS Church should change their minds, knock down the walls, and build a new
temple. The basic design of the tabernacle should be kept, but use a marble
exterior instead of the brick.
In all my years in construction I have never seen a burned out building restored
like this. The cost must be astronomical, but I am sure it will be worth it. I
do have to say that I much prefer the white exteriors of most of the temples.
There is something special in a glistening white temple that suggests purity to
Seem to me that if that building was cared about at all. The wiring of it would
of been taken care of why before it was destroyed by bad wires.
Now if someone could please tell me why the Church did not take a wrecking ball
to the Ogden Temple I would greatly appreciate an answer. That
structure was taken down to just a concrete elevator shaft or two and a few
pieces of concrete floor, wall and girders.Saving the Provo
Tabernacle shell was a completely different story, an incredible engineering
fete. Central Bank is completing its new renovation along
University and it will be only a matter of time before more of downtown Provo
will have a facelift.Glad to see all of this happening.
To Most Truthful and Patriotic: New temples, at least in the US, don't
have cafeterias anymore. They have a small snack room for workers to eat their
meals brought from home, unless they're going to eat out or at home. Much
the same as a workplace environment outside the temple.
Most Truthful and Patriotic: They are redoing the Ogden Temple. It's not
going to be the same design
None of my friends in the families of John D. Lee, or any ancestors of the
Fancher-Baker wagon train are impressed with the Church's focus in
preserving their own sites and buildings, to the exclusion of serious help in
preserving the cairn and grave sites at Mountain Meadows, until the last minute.
Had the non-church family organizations not gotten active when they did, those
burial sites would have slipped into utter disrepair.So this
September 11, go visit near Enterprise, UT and appreciate what the mutual
efforts eventually preserved. 1857 was America's first 9/11. And no
property or remuneration was ever given back to the loss of 123 persons, outside
of their 17 children.Having 7th-generation pioneer ties, I know that
back story, as many others here have given their Provo Tab details. The facts
of preserving the MMM site is not a pretty one. But atleast President Hinckley
got on board when he heard what the Lee and Fancher families were doing, and
lent church support and monies to that effort. If you visit the site, note the
porta-potty there compared with the tweleve marble stalls at the Jacob Hamblin
@Most Truthful and Patriotic.The church did not have to revitalize
Ogden twice. When the Ogden temple was first built in the early seventies,
Ogden was a thriving community. But then, civic leaders began to destroy it.
They imposed high costs on developers - driving them into the communities of
Riverside and Roy instead. Then they poured a lot of money into restoring a
street which was once a red light district close to the train station and had
little or no practical value. Customers abandoned the Ogden mall and patronized
the new developments across city boundaries. Downtown Ogden became a dangerous
place to be. This is when the church stepped in, purchased the property and
brought some life back to this forgotten city.Success stories of
Salt Lake and Ogden were cited; while claiming that Monticello was a failure. I
didn't know the church did a major development there - other than building
a temple. The church isn't responsible for how civic leaders and
developers handle their towns. The church tries to create some beauty around
it's temples and church buildings, as much as if feasible.
Gone fishin'Usually there are a couple of things that are
underground in LDS temples. (I'm not an official LDS spokesman, but
I'll try to do my best). We usually have a baptismal font supported by
twelve statues of oxen. The font is underground to bring symbolic attention to
the grave, which is one of the meanings of baptism. We believe Christ was
resurrected, so the coming out of the water is symbolic of that resurrection
(coming out of the grave) and our belief in a future resurrection. We also use white clothing in the temple, and not everyone brings their own
set of clothing, so there are laundry facilities on site.Sometimes
temples have cafeterias so the people who volunteer there don't have to
change in and out of their clothing to eat after working for several hours.Also there is the typical building plant equipment (hot water heaters,
ducts, air conditioning), and perhaps some office space and maybe even the
locker rooms where we change from our street clothing into white clothing.
Since the perimeter is preset with the brick walls, any extra needed space would
have to go down, not out or up.
Having a temple is no economic benefit.Look at Monticello, Utah.There used to be a nice Best Western; now, it's a run-down
"no-name" motel.The new motel is already a low-class Rodeway
Inn.The restaurants? Are there any open in Monticello? Not when we
drive through.IF a Mormon temple benefitted a city economically,
Ogden wouldn't have "redeveloped" its downtown TWICE since the
Ogden temple was built....and now that one is being downgraded from
"interesting architecture" to "same old boring style".There's also the "gentile factor", where half of Utah will stay
away from the area -- and it's my experience that those are the people who
actually spend the money.I understand that there are cafeterias in
temples, and people congregate there while "blessed". That
doesn't help nearby restaurants...and since this isn't a travel
destination (what with another in town), locals will just go home to eat.
I'm so grateful they saved the tabernacle. Sensitivity toward the feelings
of those of us who have loved it and used it all our lives is important. It
will also revitalize downtown Provo and bring lots of businesses in. That's
not too hard to understand. They are taking something wonderful and making it
even more wonderful. Thanks President Monson.
I am not seeing how a temple provides any apparent economic value to the
downtown area. The only thing it seems to do is add another building that
drives up the cost to purchase property to start new businesses in the area,
reduce or make parking more difficult, and create safety issues within those
areas. Higher costs, less parking, and more safety hazards. I do
not see how those increase economic value, particularly at a time when we need
to reduce the cost of property and make it easier for startup businesses to
invest in downtown Provo. My view is that when we get religions and
churches involved, they usually end up creating more problems than they solve.
(City Creek Center and Ogden seemed to be exceptions here).The LDS
Church may be good for helping with social and poverty issues, but this whole
situation is proving that churches do not do a good job with economic and
political community involvement.
I am very happy the building could be saved. What is going on with the 2 floors
under ground? Food storage, bomb shelter?
I remember when downtown Provo had a single lane of parking and two rows of cars
could travel in each direction; half the block parked from going east, the other
half parked from going west. Then they got the bright idea to make two rows of
parking and a single lane of traffic. They also planted saplings. Immediately
Center Street became a slog, bogged down street and people started avoiding it
if they have to be somewhere before next Tuesday. Then the University Mall came
in, and WHAM---the bus service that picked up university students without cars
but had money to shop, went first to the mall in Orem, then back to downtown
Prove, then to the university. The money got off the bus in Orem. Thirdly,
downtown Provo didn't have for decades any exciting places, buildings,
things to want to do while there, etc. including City Hall, so large it was put
in by a shoe horn. The library relocated, too.Provo can chalk up
it's misery to one thing: poor planning. A 2nd item....try reactionary
response to anything exciting downtown.Provo---a boring place. They
certainly need a vision of the future.
I am glad the building will be salvaged.The photograph is
fascinating. Given an older brick structure, seeing it virtually suspended in
air on steel beams (where the foundation will be) is rather surprising.
Too bad they can't do this with Detroit.
People tend to be drawn towards nice looking things -- whether that be beautiful
people in the movies, flowers vs. weeds, and well planned city areas vs. slums.
The fact that money is being poured into this project by an entity with a
reputation for doing things up nice, it will attract people who will come to
shop, to eat, to rest and invest. That is called economic growth.Cultures which no longer invest their time and their resources into creating
beauty become content with the mundane, content with mediocrity and eventually
begin to rot and decay. Granted, many don't see a direct correlation
between a new, well built building - such as a temple, civic center, etc., and
community economic growth --- which is part of the problem with society today.
BU52,The Church probably would've liked to do the same thing. They
weren't allowed to knock it down since it was considered a historical
structure. In the end they did the most with what they could. I look forward to
Graduation Day for me 30 years ago was in the Tabernacle. Spending money for
eating out and buying odds and ends was in downtown. With the soon to be temple
there, many LDS temple patrons will be frequent patrons also of the food
facilities close by. Our daughter used to sing at one of the venues downtown and
it was a hot spot for the college students in the evening. Provo used to have a
motto back in the day, "Got IT? Get IT!" Hopefully now that the city GOT
IT, they will GET IT too.
Personally, as a long time community member and tithe payer, I think they should
have knocked the thing down, built a new, better, cheaper structure, and used a
few of the old bricks on the entryway. But that's just me.
Ok, i'm dumb. I missed the second page of the article. If Provo is
assuming(or knows but isn't saying) that the LDS church will develop areas
around the temple sure I can see an economic impact. But putting a temple there
and not doing anything else I still don't see where there is a positive
Provo's downtown is not particularly vibrant but it's a far cry from
Ok, So it's a good looking building, so I understand why it would be
aesthetically pleasing. If your LDS I understand why a temple is a spiritual
blessing. What I don't understand is why it would be an economic blessing.
It's not a direct economic blessing, and if they are buying up property
around the building it's a negative economic situation, because the
properties bought up by the LDS church are no longer paying property taxes. I
guess they think that there will be a large increase in traffic to the area? I
don't really have skin in the game(considering I live in SLC) it just seems
to me that this positive economic impact should be explained in the article.
Being older than dirt I can recall downtown Provo before the Orem Mall and of
course the Provo Town Center Mall. The City of Provo chose to abandon downtown
to focus on development south of the train tracks. Any redevelopment of what is
left of downtown Provo should rest on the shoulders of Provo.With
some enlightened leadership and fortitude the city could have had the mall where
it was originally intended - right off the Center Street exit ramp at 500 West.
They fumbled and Orem got the mall, Provo got a blighted downtown.I
hope to frequent the temple when open, and I do enjoy the restaurants on, and
close to Center Street. I hope the downtown does improve.