I don't think anybody even thinks about Mormons. Although there are
approximately the same number of Jews and Mormons in the world, Jews are a
people while Mormons are a religion. Jews stand out for their superior
intelligence and accomplishments (winning Nobel prizes, etc.) and are
responsible for much progress in the world. Mormons not so much. Mormons
don't need to worry about acceptance... we are quiet underachievers running
for the most part under the world's radar screen.
1aggie,I agree completely.And the underachievement is
facilitated by overblown membership statistics coupled with an unhealthy
self-obsession verging on paranoia.
it seems to me that the Savior of the world made it clear that acceptance from
"the natural man" isn't something that ranks too high. Do what is
right - let the consequence follow....words to live by.
I think that the comparison to Jewish jokes requires a caveat: they are
overwhelmingly told by Jews in self-deprecation, and invite the
"gentiles" in the audience to join in the laughter. Jewish comedians
have made careers out of this. No one but Mel Brooks could get away with
"Springtime for Hitler". Seinfeld has commentary on this in an episode
where he suspects his dentist has converted to Judaism just so he can tell
Jewish jokes.Context matters tremendously. A Nazi or Klansman tells
the same Jewish jokes, and it's hate speech.Mormons joking
about themselves are one thing, and so is good-natured ribbing from outsiders
(and frankly we could lighten up a great deal when that happens). But many of
the jokes I've heard about Mormons involve polygamy and 'magic
underwear' - they aren't meant to be good-natured, but demean instead.
Whoever came up with this question did not think it through.Just ponder
all the jokes you have heard and all of the people, even those who have ruined
the lives of others, caused pain, injury, death, destruction, etc., who are the
theme of jokes. Anyone ever watched late night prime time TV hosts who
begin their shows with jokes?Again, who did not think this through before
throwing it out in the DN?
So, given Richard and Lynda's hypothesis, Mormons have just been warmly
embraced by A Scientist.
Just because Jewish people have many high profile members of their race/religion
doesn't mean that Mormons are 'low achievers.' Scientist, I would
like you to actually do some scientific research and show me HOW Mormons are
underachievers,how the membership statistics are overblown (members -- whether
active or not -- are counted -- just like any other church), and an example or
two of the 'unhealthy self-obsession verging on paranoia" that you
speak of. Opinions are fine, but I find it ironic that you post under the screen
name "A Scientist.' I agree with Patriot.
Yet another item on a special protected class list. If an act is wrong, it
is wrong and should be prosecuted --- period. If I ever get attacked, I do hope
the DA doesn't ask about my race, religion, culture, dress, or personal
Hmm, I was'nt aware of Eric Holder adding the LDS on a watch list to
protect. Now I do like to have fun with people, and it dos'nt bother me to
have people poke fun, or make offensive comments. But the next time I hear
something offensive I will quote Eric Holder. I just hope I can keep a straight
face.On a serious note, we do not want the world to except us!
Investigators, and new members with a testimony, yes! When were excepted by the
world, that's when were in trouble as a church. Think about it!
Mormons make those with the addicting habits of drinking alcohol and coffee,
smoking tobacco, smoking weed, having pre-marital, extra-marital or same gender
sex, and who do not give their time and money to charitable causes that help the
less fortunate around the world...well it makes them feel intimidated,
uncomfortable and dare I say guilty and therefore Mormons become the butt of
jokes at their beer/coctail parties and barbecues..Also, Mormons
may also be the new symbol of the iconic "miss goody two shoes"?
It is foolish to over-react, but likewise to under-appreciate mocking or to join
in that mocking directed at ourselves and our sacred gospel. We need to be
valiant in fighting and contending for the cause, not against it. There are
sides.We need to be wise when we're being attacked and respond
in a Christlike fashion whether that means with a switch and a sharp tongue
speaking the cutting truth, or with love and compassion alone. A time to every
purpose under heaven.
I always was under the impression Mormons hate sin, but love sinners.
I find it incredible (i.e. hard to believe) the the Eyres have never experienced
harmful prejudice (as opposed to hurtful, i.e. it hurts one's feelings) as
a result of belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint. The
vast majority of people in the world do try to be fair and tolerant, but there
are enough that don't that I think the Eyres are either choosing to
overlooking some incidents or have been very, very, fortunate.Despite that, I think that the overall message of the column is dead on. In
many instances, we can wisely choose not to be offended (sometimes even when
offense was intended).My final words are to point out that there is
a large middle-ground between "over-achieving" and
"under-achieving." Just saying.
aggie,I don't believe Mormons are under-achieving. Mormons are
more likely to be educated and have college degrees, on average, than most other
religions. True, it seems like there are many Jewish doctors and all, but the
Mormon Church is still young. It will come with time. I don't believe in
such things as under-achieving or over-achieving. Succuss is winning the war
with sin in one's life, not in the accumulation of riches or status.
This yearning for acceptance seems disingenuous, as if it's just seeking
the political power of the mainstream, not it's acceptance.
I think most Americans view mormons the way the South Park episode treated it:
mild respect but they laugh at the odd claims.
Compared to the other groups mentioned in the article, we're newbies and
we've put up with a lot in only 183 years. I think our past experience with
violent mob action, unrelenting government harassment, lack of protection under
the law, murder of our young and old missionaries, burning of our sacred text,
and the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, and the attempted murder of many
others. These are hate crimes. A few jokes and vulgar comments do not hurt us.
And what we do best - we Mormons - we move on and on and on.
I forgot to mention the Extermination Order, Mormons having to leave the United
States (Utah wasn't part of the US yet) to have religious freedom - though
many of those early Mormons had fought in the Revolutionary War or were children
of those who did.
@The Economist"Mormons are more likely to be educated and have
college degrees, on average, than most other religions."Sorry
Economist, I've got to call your bluff on that statement. According to a
2009 study by the Pew Forum om Religion and Public Life 18% of Mormons have
graduated college and 10% have attended postgraduate, which mirrors the
population as a whole. Any religion who exceeds the average is going to exceed
the Mormon rate. Please cite your source for that statement you made.It is not so much that we Mormons are underachievers, it is that we are at
best average (in everything) and I am tired of the steady drumbeat of
misinformation implying otherwise.And despite having a monopoly on
truth, we ARE massive underachievers compared to the Jewish population. For
example Jewish Nobel Laureates = 182 Mormon Nobel Laureates = 0. You'd
think with all the truth we have we'd be able to win one measly Nobel
I agree that Mormons are gaining some acceptance and respect...with a big
exception from the Evangelical community though. They would rather cut out their
tongues than say Mormons are Christian. The Evangelical poster boy Kirk Cameron
did 3 episodes on Mormonism in his WAY of the Master series on TBN.
I completely disagree. This article attempts to make the world out
to be this place where LDS members are given a hard time. Nothing could be
further from the truth.The fact is that people could routinely care
less about the LDS Church and its members. Increasing its missionary force to
evangelize, knocking doors aggressively, bothering people on the street, and
going into Internet social media sites in such a calculated and subtle manner
and forcing its message down the throats of good non-LDS is doing more harm than
good. In my view, the problems with being made fun of are not
brought on by others. The LDS Church brings those things upon itself.
Romney would have been president had it not been for his religion. I think they
are more accepted but there is still some bias.
Perhaps the news of Mormon's being added to the hate crimes protected list
could lead to the state finally establishing a hate crimes law.
Growth and popularity are double-edged swords. On the one hand it will lead to
more converts. On the other hand it will lead to more scrutiny. Sometimes this
scrutiny will be good-humored, but more and more frequently it will take the
form of serious intellectual attack on the unique irrational beliefs propagated
by Mormonism. This scrutiny occurs now, and has since the religion's
founding. However, many non-believers ignored or dismissed the scrutiny because
it was relatively meaningless to their lives. The more the Church grows in
popularity and influence, the more it's doctrines and practices will be
scrutinized. This will have a negative impact on recruitment and retention. I
hope and pray that those who take up this serious business will target only
beliefs and doctrine, and not the good people who practice it. History suggests
that a measure of pessimism is in order, and that is why giving Mormons
protection against hate crimes is prudent.
aggie,I said a mistatement. The Pew study you and I were
referencing concluded "Mormons are significantly more likely than the
population overall to have some college education. Six-in-ten Mormons (61%) have
at least some college education, compared with half of the overall population.
However, the proportion of Mormons who graduate from college (18%) or receive
postgraduate education (10%) is similar to the population as a whole (16% and
11%, respectively)." I'm sorry, I had read that Mormons were more
likely to have attended college a while back and assumed that meant that they
graduated more. When I looked up the study, I realized you were correct. I
still don't agree with you that achievement is equated with the number of
Nobel prizes one amasses. I believe achievement is also how well one raises a
family and how well one serves others.
If one makes their life or religion a joke then they are going to be laughed at.
@laggieI think Jews have benefitted scientifically and economically
from their preferred geography---large cities, often with world-leading
universities. . A kid Who grows up in Boston or New York will have a very
different vision of what "success" is than a kid from Springville or
Pocatello. Not saying Mormons should migrate to major metropolitan centers and
judge their success as parents by whether or not their kids got into Ivy League
schools. But geography and accompanying attitudes and social networks are big
@The Economist"I believe achievement is also how well one raises
a family and how well one serves OTHERS (emphasis added on the word
"others")"Me too. And if you google"Jewish
Philanthropists" and then "Mormon Philanthropists" you will see
another stark contrast. We Mormons delude ourselves that we are helping others,
but for the most part we only help our own.
@dell,Much of Jewish distinction is due to their esoteric genes, there is
no special genetics of Mormons.
As a Mormon who was raised in Utah but has spent most of my adult life living
outside the Mormon bubble, being able to view myself through others eyes has
been a must. My friends know i'm a Mormon and they respect that. They
don't offer me coffee or alcohol when we go out to eat are often my biggest
defenders when people do offer.To me there's big difference
between wearing your religion on your sleeve and just living the standards of
the church. The best conversations I've had about the church have been with
people who didn't know what religion I was, but were curious about why I
didn't go drinking with them after work or use foul language. One of the
best laughs i've ever had was on a business trip when some friends invited
me to a strip club, and I declined by telling them the last thing I need to do
is go looking for another wife.I find a lot of people think that
Mormons are very defensive about our religion which begs the question why?
A sign of growing acceptance? Not hardly, it is religious bigotry no matter how
you sugar coat it. But it is a sign of increasing awareness of the growing
power and influence, political and otherwise of the LDS Church, as well as more
complete knowledge of its complex and often difficult history and religious
Poking fun at Mormons is a backhanded way of saying "you're OK,
dude." It shows far more respect than feeling that Mormons have to handled
with kid gloves.
1aggie -- You need to do more research on the many ways the L.D.S. Church offers
help to people who are not Mormon. Look up L.D.S. Humanitarian Services, from
which I quote: . . . the welfare efforts of the LDS Church have expanded to help
people around the world regardless of religion, race, or nationality. LDS
Humanitarian Services was created to coordinate these efforts in partnership
with government and other nonprofit agencies around the world. The top
humanitarian initiatives include clean water, vision treatment, wheelchair
provision, neonatal resuscitation, and disaster relief. Other initiatives
include immunizations, family enrichment programs, and family food production.
In 2008, LDS Humanitarian Services provided aid to 3.3 million people in 122
countries, and since 1985 help has been given to 23 million people in 163
nations. All of these initiatives, as well as support and advice on personal and
community preparation for disasters can be found on the LDS Church’s
Provident Living website.All of the funding for LDS Humanitarian
Services comes from the philanthropic support of the LDS Church’s members
and other donors. Donations to the Humanitarian Fund are collected through local
bishops and through LDS Philanthropies."
@TWfromALIt has been my observation that the only group that is
consistently guilty of true hate speech regarding Mormons, is, ironically, our
evangelical "Christian" brethren. I have heard and read some
extraordinarily hateful and ignorant things coming from certain segments of this
@Aggie,I acknowledge our church's support of LDS Humanitarian
Services and know members of our church have been the first one on the scene to
help out the public after disasters, even responding to as many as two disasters
a day on average as reported in a recent General Conference. That being said, I
have noticed in our Ward that our Elders' Quorum, for example, doesn't
talk about helping out in the community. Instead, we talk about doing our Home
Teaching and helping our families, essentially "taking care of our own."
Our church's Welfare Program is built to serve peope who receive a
Bishop's Order, not the general public. We believe we're serving
others by doing temple ordinances for them, but outside the church, there is
nothing tangible to show for our efforts. So I do believe much of the church is
focused on taking care of our own. Of course, there are exceptions. In a
previous Ward, the Relief Society, for example, volunteered for the Meals on
Wheels program and I have volunteered my time and money to help in the
The Eyres obviously haven't lived in the south. Jokes are just a precursor
to spit, gnashing of teeth, and a call for exorcism.
Humor at another's expense says a lot about the person who spoke it, and
not much of favorable. And it says a lot about the people who seek to hear it.
re: Res NovaeExactly. How many LDS Comedians are there?Case in point, Jerry Seinfeld, Groucho Marx, Lewis Black, Mel Brooks, the 3
Stooges to name a scant few.
@1aggieYou've got your head in the sand - you quote one statistic
about education and leap to the conclusion that Mormons are under achievers. A
quick google search on mormon statistics will gain you a whole host of reasons
for mormon exceptionalism. To speak directly to your point on education, Mormons
easily out-pace Catholics and Protestants. Frankly I'm quite tired of
people like you pretending you have the corner on knowledge, grudgingly (with a
sigh) accepting your role as one who has to set the rest of us straight.
Sometimes it is those who claim that there is no bias against Mormons and/or
that the Mormons bring it on themselves who are guilty of putting Mormons down
and exhibiting negative attitudes towards the L.D.S. Church. It can be so easy
to deny the problem while also denying one's own participation in
promulgating it. This way, the prejudice just 'doesn't exist'
--as if anyone who harbors negative feelings about the L.D.S. Church would be
aware of the extent of it, anyway.
RE: iron&clay, Mormons may also be the new symbol of the iconic "miss
goody two shoes"?True,We can pray the best, preach the best, and
sing the best. We are the best looking and finest set of people on the face of
the earth…They may make sharp their two-edged swords, and I will turn out
the Elders of Israel with greased feathers, and whip them to death. We are not
to be beat. We expect to be stumbling block to the world, and a rock of offence
to them.” – Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City,
November 9, 1856 by Brigham Young
The hate that is being spoken in these comments just astounds me. Why does
everything come down to hate. Simple dialogue is what was needed here and maybe
some discussion instead Satan poked his little head ( or for those not believing
in Satan then jealousy or envy or greed you can change the name as you wish) in
and Pride took over and now it is all hate speech. Christ taught to show love
to your enemies, love those that revile you, love those that cause you harm, it
is the only way to stop this cycle of Hate. Try it, it actually works, lower
your voices and open your ears. Thank