steeleuteSandy, UT"But don't deny that your schedule
has been filled the last 2 years with the bottom feeders of the WAC such Idaho
State, Idaho, and New Mexico State. Even Hawaii was a bottom feeder last
year.""Filled" is the operative term. Notre Dame was
not a bottom feeder. Nor Boise. Utah? U tell me - they were on the schedule.
Are they bottom feeders or not, I'd love to hear. Oregon State?Wait a minute. Oregon State is that same "PAC 12 schedule" that U are
claiming.So here's my interpretation of the facts. Utah has
not yet played a "PAC 12 schedule." This year, U do. BYU's
schedule has admittedly not been as tough as Utah's, but it has been better
than it was before. And before, it was an MWC schedule, not a WAC schedule.Bottom line? Ute fans have said they would rather lose to a tough
schedule. Good thing. That's what the future looks like.BYU
fans are looking forward to playing on national TV at least five of the best
teams in the nation. Can we win? We'll see.
@Marked it DownExcellent points and they just gave more credibility
to the points I made. The average total offense rnaking of the teams utah played
was middle tier to lower and the same for BYU. Playing similar "SOS"
offenses and BYU had VASTLY superior results against similar offenses. This assertion that a teams offense is just automatically better, and
conversely a "tougher" matchup, just because the team is in the pac12 is
hilariously false. I'll guaranty you half the pac12 would have swapped
their offense for SJSU's, Noter Dame's, or Georgia Tech's, last
season because those were all better offenses than they were putting on the
field.The pac12 is funny like that, they have a few teams with
really good offenses but the rest of the teams have bad, and by that I mean very
bad, offenses. wsu and wash were both ranked in the 90's in offense last
year and utah and colorado were both below 100. Now BYU played 5 teams with
offenses ranked in the 90's or 100's as well so that is basically a
wash. The point is BYU was better defensively and it is inarguable.
Aggie253"you only beat one out of those 5 teams in a squeaker at
home."You've obviously forgotten which of BYU's Top 25
opponents BYU beat, and the fact that this article is all about DEFENSE, and
that BYU's defense completely shut down Chuckie Keeton, allowing the Aggies
only 41 passing, 202 rushing, 243 total, and a miniscule THREE points.Three of BYU's four losses to Top 25 opponents were by a total of TEN
points.BYU's defense did its job; if BYU's offensive had
been meerly average, BYU could have easily had an 11- or 12-win, Top 25 season.
@UteanymousIncidentally, you only beat one out of those 5 teams in a
squeaker at home.
gored"One thing that is obviously misleading is the fact that
during the last two years Utah has played a much more difficult schedule than
either BYU or Utah State, resulting in the comparative drop on the
graph."Unfortunately, your whiny "tougher" schedule
excuse doesn't hold any water. Utah's defense also struggled against
the weaklings on their schedule.Versus 1-11 Colorado last year, the
Utes gave up 316 passing, 112 rushing, 418 total, and 35 points, against one of
the worst teams in the country.Against 3-9 California, the Utes gave
up 288 passing, 153 rushing, 441 total, and 27 points.Lowly Colorado
and California scored 15 points more against the Utes (62 points), than four of
BYU's five Top 25 opponents - Notre Dame(17), Boise State(7) Utah State(3),
and San Jose State(20) - COMBINED (47 points).Regardless of how you
slice it, BYU's defense was simply MUCH better than Utah's defense.
steeleute"It will also be nice to see BYU finally play a legit
schedule."You don't think playing FIVE Top 25 teams,
including one of the two teams that played in the NC game, playing a
"legit" schedule?at #4/#3 Notre Dame(12-1)#16/#17 Utah
State(11-2)at #18/#14 Boise St(11-2)#20/#19 Oregon St(9-4)#21/#21 San Jose St(11-2)When have the Utes EVER played FIVE Top
25 teams in the same season? The Utes only played TWO Top 25 teams
last season:#16/#17 Utah State(11-2)#20/#19 Oregon St(9-4)Yes, the bottom half BYU's schedule wasn't much, but the top
half blew away Utah's 2012 schedule. In addition to the ranked teams that
BYU played, BYU also played at ACC division winner Ga Tech(7-7), which easily
handled USC in the Sun Bowl, and BYU played MWC tri-champion SDSU(9-4).
Rockwell,I'm not denying anything about Utah's schedule,
they have only beat bad Pac 12 teams so far and need to step it up. They will
certainly have the opportunity to do so this year with the possibility that 5 of
the first 6 teams we play could be ranked. It will also be nice to see BYU
finally play a legit schedule.
@goredActually you are wrong. The offensive rankings of the teams
BYU and utah have played the last two years have been pretty close on average.
If you take the total offense averages of all the opponents both
teams played the last two years the averages of the teams utah played is higher,
but not by very much, and the total offensive averages of the teams both played
are middle to lower end in the NCAA. 2 years ago utah's opponents averaged
in high 40's total offense and last year they averaged in the 60'sBYU's opponents two years ago averaged in the 50's and last
year they averaged in the high 60's.utah did not play either
oregon or stanford the last 2 years, oregon has been ranked in the top 10 for
total offense both of those years and stanford was in the top 10 last year.
BYU's opponent's offensive averages both years has been greatly
dragged down by playing utah who both years has been ranked below 100 in total
offense. BYU's offense on the otherhand has been ranked very close to the
average, although slightly above, of the teams utah has played.
A few obvious facts to be taken from the graphic: Utah has been the most
consistent over the past 10+ years; both BYU and Utah State have improved. One
thing that is obviously misleading is the fact that during the last two years
Utah has played a much more difficult schedule than either BYU or Utah State,
resulting in the comparative drop on the graph. The other two teams have played
a much easier schedule, especially BYU. The Cougars (or the "cougars"
as duckhunter would say) have benefitted by playing 4 to 5 games each year
against the lower half of the pathetic WAC conference. So the last
two years are like comparing apples to oranges. Either way, it really
doesn't matter. Utah fans are happy to be in the PAC 12, USU fans are
happy to be entering the MWC, and hopefully BYU fans (I mean byu "fans")
are enjoying their quest for relevance, I mean independence.
Ignoring the obviously biased comments from a few posters on both sides, there
are some clear concepts that can be taken from this chart. For the entire
period, Utah has had the best defense. In the past 4 years, BYU has improved,
USU has improved, and Utah has regressed.From a fans perspective,
this is pretty impressive for Utah with the majority of seasons resulting in
consistent performance (between 20 and 40) while the other two schools have some
pretty big swings. BYU has clearly had the best defense over the
past two year but part of this is due to a schedule that includes a lot of
cupcakes. Of course part of it is Bronco and a big part of it is Van Noy ...
@stufoo -Frankly I don't believe your comments regarding the
insights of the Ute fan you reference are close to an accurate representation,
except possibly for the reference to Chris B. I travel all over the country and
interact with a number of PAC 12 fans. None of them, repeat none of them
'can't stand' Utah. I never have had to apologize for U fans and
have had numerous season ticket holders from PAC 12 schools tell that the U fans
traveling to away games are great.I would disagree that the comments
are 'important to share' for any reason other than to take another in
your continued jabs at Utah.
steelute"But don't deny that your schedule has been filled
the last 2 years with the bottom feeders of the WAC such Idaho State, Idaho, and
New Mexico State."No more than Utah's schedule has been
filled the last 2 years with No. Colorado(5-6), Colorado(1-11), California(3-9)
and Washington State(3-9). Don't deny it, you've also filled your
schedule with some pretty weak patsies.And let's not forget,
the top of BYU's 2012 schedule included FIVE Top 25 teams; Utah only played
TWO.Sagarin ranked Utah's 2012 SOS at #41; BYU's at #63,
MUCH closer than Sagarin's final team rankings, BYU #26, Utah
I will admit, though, BYU had some impressive defensive games such as Notre
Dame, G-Tech, and Boise State.
Snack PAC:Considering that Utah State was 7 points away from being
undefeated last year, not to mention we all know they should have beat
Wisconsin, I'm not going to take your comment as an insult to Utah. But
don't deny that your schedule has been filled the last 2 years with the
bottom feeders of the WAC such Idaho State, Idaho, and New Mexico State. Even
Hawaii was a bottom feeder last year.
More than a few of you don't think that strength of schedule matters in how
a team's defense ranks at the end of the season.That explains a
These boards are always good for a laugh. thanks guys. :-)
Duh,I like your comment. Cheers.
Blah blah blah....too many speculations. Though I don't like to hear Chris
B and his demeanor, he is right. We can talk all about how good our defense has
been but, until we get the proverbial "U" monkey off our back, the
bragging rights belong to him and he will use it over and over. Beat Utah and
have a great season. It won't make him go away but it will give us the
bragging rights until we meet again.
Cool stats. You know Utah is in REALLY bad shape when USU had a better defense
than Utah. However, USU played one of the top 10 easiest schedules so it's
a bit deceiving. Utah just lost most of its best players from its defense,
which was a lot. I don't know how they'll recover this year. 4 wins
seems likely for them seeing their schedule and will be the worst defense again
this year, playing the likes of Stanford, Oregon, a revamped BYU offense usually
in the top 25 with Anae, and re-energized Washington State and their potential
prolific offense. Don't forget other teams that can score like USC, UCLA,
@ekute @SoonerUteYour points are extremely obvious and self
explanatory. When a team's defense finishes 3rd in the entire nation, and
loses a keystone DE as the #5th pick in the NFL draft, as well as its leading
tackler, they couldn't possibly be expected to repeat the same level of
dominance. Similar analogy---BYU fans saying that Utah peaked in
2008, and it just all goes down hill (that's a quality pun) from
there...you can't do any better than undefeated...I predict they will do
worse in 2009..LOL no duh.Also- @talkinsportsLOL
"cherry-picked stats" criticism immediately preceded by 2010 and 2012
stats..clearly leaving out the 2011 debacle...hypocrisy at its finest. This is
the type of fan nobody wants to see on the comment boards...Ute fans will gladly
smack that comment out of the park that you just teed up for them so nicely.Go Cougs!Go Utes!
The format of the graph makes perfect sense. The better the defense, the higher
the point on the graph. Also- isn't calling BYU "byU"
kind of ignorant to the fact that "byU" and the UoU were both founded by
"by?" Seems kind of disrespectful to the founder of the three biggest
universities in Utah, the University of Utah included. Just food for thought.
Also, national defensive rankings have not been padded by WAC teams
for BYU. BYU's best defensive games since independence have come against
the best teams they've played (sans OSU in the last 9 minutes this past
year of course). Yes, Utah has beaten BYU both years of BYU's independence
(last years trifecta only counts as 1 win, surprisingly enough ;) ), but on a
*yearly* basis---that is, an entire 12 game season, 13 if you make a
bowl---BYU's defense has been the best in the state for the past three
years, as is shown in the graph.Go Cougs!Go Utes!And
thanks to Brigham Young for both of them!
I see the Ute's red line consistently near the top.I see
byu's line peaking every 4 or 5 years then immediately taking a nose
dive.byu peaked last year...
UteologyAs usual, our little friends on the hill are so obsessed
with BYU, that it's impossible for them to see the big picture.One game does not a season make, which is how BYU finished in the Top 25 in
2011, and Utah didn't receive a single vote in either poll, and how BYU
went bowling last season, while the sorry Utes spent the holidays watching bowl
week from the comfort of their couch.
@DuckhunterBYU's defense outplayed utah's last year in
their head to head matchup (less rushing yards, less passing yards, less total
yards, and less points given up)----------Utah defense
has won the last three games:24-21 ... Game winning fumble, 654-10 ... Utah Defense 14 BYU 1017-16 ... Game winning
SportsFan suggests "You misunderstood the explanation. In 2012 - BYU >
USU > Utah"Oh I totally get the chart. It shows that BYU
does not maintain a steady ranking. After peaking in 2003 and 2007, things
headed south. They peaked last year, which means the defense will drop off this
VegasUteThe 2011 BYU-Utah game was a complete anomaly, caused mainly
by a rash of 7 turnovers, the first two of which gave Utah the ball in
BYU's end zone and the second at BYU's 3 yard line. Then late in the
game, Utah capitalized on a tired, disheartened BYU defense to break a several
big scoring plays up the middle.The only other team to even score 30
points against BYU in 2011, was 14th-ranked TCU on the road.In 2012,
BYU's defense only gave up FIVE rushing TD's the entire season, while
playing FIVE Top 25 teams, as well as Georgia Tech, the 2nd best rushing team in
the country.Utah vs BYU 2012Rushing 49Passing 196Total 245Utah vs BYU 2010Rushing 89Passing 207Total 296In two of the last three games versus Utah, BYU has held
the Utes under 100 yards rushing and under 300 years total offense.As was said previously, take off your crimson-colored goggles once in awhile
an examine BYU's complete record against good and bad teams, not just your
@DuckhunterYou're right, Washington, USC, Arizona, UCLA, and Arizona
State are nowhere near as good as the mightly Vandals of Idaho, and those mighty
New Mexico teams who had to recruit cheerleaders just to field a team.
@Vegas UteHow quickly things are forgotten. BYU played five top 25
teams last year when they ranked third in the nation for defense. Is this
really a drop in competition from pre-Independence? The only year that BYU
played a tougher schedule was 2004 where they played Utah, Boise and USC, the
three teams that went undefeated. BYU steadily improved on defense, Utah has
done the reverse. Football success does not revolve around the
rivalry game for the Cougars. It never has. BYU's success is measured by
looking at a season as a whole, whether the team finished ranked and won its
bowl game. BYU had a crappy year last year. Utah had a stellar year in the
eyes of its fans. They beat BYU. That victory saw Ute fans storm the field more
than once. That end of game shows what is most important to the fans. It
isn't about winning championships. It is about one thing--beat BYU.
Here's the honest analysis:Urban took over in 2003 and 2004,There was an upward trend as his recruits matured in the program they
topped in 2008 when the last urban recruits were seniors, since 2008
with wittingham recruits there has been a steady trend downward.FOR BYU since Bronco taking over there has been steady upward trend.Conclusion:There will be an Increase of BYU defensive players
making the NFL,and a decrease of Utah defensive players making the
I had the great fortune to spend some close up and personal time this last week
with a Utah fan. A real one, not the trolls on the boards. It reminded me why
I used to like the U.He said something interesting that is important
to share. He said that when he travels, he constantly has to apologize for some
u fans. He stated that many times that u fans don't have much respect for
tradition, legacy, and the great college programs because they were left looking
in in both 2004 and 2008. He knows that most of the PAC 12 can't stand
Utah and it is mostly because the fans feel entitled without earning anything.
He hopes that either Utah starts winning, or the fans learn that they are not
the shining program they think they are and temper their comments and
actions.He also hates chris b. We had a good laugh because we had
something in common. He said chris epitomizes everything that is wrong with Utah
fans.lol that one all day long. I'll mark it down.
@u 90I think the stats speak for themselves. BYU is inarguably on an
upward trend with its defense while utah is inarguably on a downward trend. YOu
can make whatever excuses or reason you want to make for those FACTS but they
are FACTS never the less. BYU's defense outplayed utah's
last year in their head to head matchup (less rushing yards, less passing yards,
less total yards, and less points given up) while also outperforming them for
the season overall.And no I don't think the pac 12 scheduling
of the last 2 years had much to do with it. utah didn't even play the best
2 teams in the pac12 either year and still got lit up by some pretty mediocre
pac 12 teams. In fact utah's first year in the pac 12 the conference was
pretty bad. Last year the pac 12 was improved and utah was even worse. But whiney utah "fan" excuses always humor me so please keep making
Sports Fan,Do you think defensive stats have anything to do with
SOS, quality of opponent, PAC 12 vs. independent scheduling?
TrueBlueBut byU gave up how much at home against Utah in 2011? And
you ignore the Idaho, Idaho State, New Mexico State, Hawaii, etc games! The arcane argument of "colored" lenses goes both ways.Go Utes!!
VegasUteYour opinion that BYU's defense was only good against
some supposedly "weak offenses", completely ignores the fact that
BYU's defense also shut down the offenses of some very good, Top 25 teams,
as well as the rushing offense of Georgia Tech, one of the best rushing teams in
the country.Take off your crimson-colored goggles once in awhile.
@talkinsportsIt is sad and it is only one "fan"base that has
those "fans". Granted they only amount to a few but they only exist on
one side of this thing. Absolutely classless.
nwcoug"In the Mendenhall/Whittingham eras, BYU has had a higher ranked
defense in 5 of the 8 years."Nice spin - but the results
head-to-head are opposite. And two of those years are in the
"Independence" scheduling, where Utah was 2-0 heas to head. Just think
of where byU could have ranked in 2011 without 54-10!talkinsports"It's sad that any fan has to be so giddy with joy every time a
player from an opposing team is seriously injured."I
couldn't agree with you more. Nobody should take delight in the injuries
of these kids. Injuries ALWAYS come on to bite every team. Gloating over
injuries will come back to bite you. Chris B promised that if byU
beats Utah this year, he will go away. If byU does beat Utah, let's hope
he stays true to his word.Go Utes!!
I had such hopes for this article. Very interesting graph, which is a living
and evolving graph, which could read very differently after this year for all
teams.The postings started out very well, with objective posts from
all sides of the rivalries. But it quickly deteriorated into the usual battle
between Chris B and the trollers. The things that I take most from
the graph are Utah's consistency and USU's climb out of nowhere.
Utah's average rank, 29 - byU's 41. MWC years - Utah 28, byU 46.
Whitt's average higher than Bronco's, even including
PAC-12/Independence years.The year before Utah joined the PAC 12,
Utah and byU were basically the same. byU climbed during their two years of
independence, which should be expected with their drop in competition. Utah
dropped with the increase in difficulty, but to still respectable level. The
telling year will be 20013 where byU's schedule strength is higher, where
USU also jumps in schedule strength, and where Utah's schedule gets even
tougher and they continue to adjust to PAC-12 speed. If byU and USU stay at
these ranking levels, they will accomplish something noteworthy and important.
It's sad that any fan has to be so giddy with joy every time a player from
an opposing team is seriously injured.
In the Mendenhall/Whittingham eras, BYU has had a higher ranked defense in 5 of
the 8 years.
While the defenses for BYU and Utah continue to improve, don't be surprised
to see Utah's defense drop even further this year.chrispy has
her numbers right, just in the wrong orderUtah 4-8, no bowlMark it down!
@SportsFan,You mean that byu defesne had better stats against a half
WAC schedule than Utah had against a Pac 12 schedule right?All I
know is our offense and our defense is better than you offense and your
defense.3 years in a row.LOL!
Upside-down graph???bwaahaha!!In their desperate attempt
at spin, our friends on the hill have once again misread the results.Closer to the top of the graph = better defense.BYU and Utah State
have both surpassed the Utes who are once again forced to go into their whiny
SOS excuse making mode.
christy"I wonder if playing a WAC schedule vs. a Pac 12 schedule
impacts the results any?"It's laughable that a team that
couldn't even beat the only WAC team on their schedule last season, to
qualify for a bowl, should be demeaning playing a WAC schedule.U
can't even beat the little boys - see 10-loss UNLV and 10-loss Colorado -
let alone the big boys.How many PAC teams with winning records have
you beaten since joining the PAC?* crickets *
SoonerUteYou misunderstood the explanation. While #1 is technically
LOWER than #2, it's still better to be #1 than #2.The chart
correctly represents the relative strength of each defense:In 2012 -
BYU > USU > Utah
The 2004 and 2008 Utah defenses were ridiculous. Between the two defenses there
was a total of 12 players between the teams that went on to play in the NFL and
several are still on active rosters. 7 alone from 2008: Paul Kruger, Koa Misi,
Derrick Shelby, Sean Smith, Brice McCain, Robert Johnson, and RJ Stanford.
Chris BOn closer inspection you'll notice that Utah has been in
steady decline since 2008, while BYU and USU have been steadily improving.Both BYU and USU now have better defenses than Utah.
Interesting. Over the next week I would also like to see infographics showing
offensive ranking, strength of schedule and year end ranking.
Since 2008 Utah has been on the decline defensively while USU and BYU have gone
up. Hopefully Utah can get back in defensive shape that they used to be.
@SoonerUte - good call. The system I used to produce this was sort of tricky.
But I was able to flip it upside down. Just had to think outside the box a
little. I'm glad y'all like it so far.
I wonder if playing a WAC schedule vs. a Pac 12 schedule impacts the results
any?LOLI'll take playing with the big boys over
beating up on nobodies(including your former rival) anyday!
"Take note! Because these are rankings, being high on the chart is not a
good thing."Couldn't you have flipped the chart around? If you
have to explain the infographic, its not a very good infographic.
Wow, cool graphic. It's cool to see that BYU has seen some pretty steady
improvement in recent years, and that Utah has consistently ranked pretty high.
Most encouraging though is to see the progress that USU made in the last two
seasons, they're really turning things around up there in Logan. Here's hoping for another top 5 season for the defense. Go Cougs!
Utah has been much more steady over this time period. BYU jumping up and down. I
do love the trend in recent years for BYU's defense - glad Mendenhall took
back the D reins. The problem the last few years has been the offense which is
probably a mirror image of the defensive stats. Hopefuly Anae can reverse that
trend and the defense can keep it together.