Don't know if anyone here knows what a Tim Hortons store is. It is like a
Duncan Donuts sort of. Anyways I work at a Tim Hortons and the messes I saw in
the summer were from teenagers and adults!!!!! You can teach children till your
blue in the face but it doesn't mean they will not have their "messy
moments"! I have found that adults make more of a mess sometimes than
children do. To the restaurant owner--hope your children are perfectly clean at
all times! I don't ever want to see them in a restaurant I may be at. They
may make a mess that would offend me! Grow up please and see that with some
children it doesn't matter how you are with them they seem to do what they
will. Right or wrong they do.
I am not sure that it is wrong to expect people to teach their children to be
neat and clean up their messes....when they are cognizant. A one year old and a
three year old are just barely developing awareness of the world, and it's
doubtful they have any idea what a "scone" is yet or why freshly cleaned
carpets matter. Can you blame a child -a small child at that- for making a mess,
being a little grubby, dropping some crumbs on the floor? Really? I make messes
and spill things literally every day and no one ask me to leave my table at the
restaurant when it happens. Because that would be insanely discourteous, and I
would refuse to pay or ever return. Because we recognize that sometimes even
adults have accidents. And all of you people who have your noses stuck up
in the air like you've never tripped over your own shoelaces or let your
dog clean up your spill on the kitchen tile, I hope you never have children
because you are going to traumatize them with your cleanliness.
This mother thinks she is entitled to let her kids do whatever they want, and
the restaurant has to put up with it and the other restaurant patrons should
just put up with it. We had six kids -- we didn't go out to nice
restaurants very often, but our kids knew they had to be on their best behavior.
One way to make them act right is to threaten to leave them home with a
babysitter the next time they misbehave. We certainly couldn't afford to
leave some kids home with a babysitter while the rest of the family goes out:
BUT, you only have to do this once and they will all act better the rest of the
If a restaurant does not allow children, fine. If a restaurant does not made
that distinction, and the folks who work there or run the place proceed to
humiliate a customer with messy children, not fine. It is for the restaurant
owners to make the decision and then honor whatever decision they have made.
gramma b: It wasn't customers complaining it was the owner. The owner
made a much too bigger issue by putting it on the internet. My children and
grandchildren made messes when we went out. We always left a bigger tip than
I have no sympathy for parents who think it is alright for their kids to ruin
the dining experience of other customers.
The woman had every right to take her kids out to eat.
I am deployed and my wife takes our two children to restaurants, but we've
taught them how to behave. They sit at the table during the entire meal. They
speak quietly. We take them out frequently because it is important that our
children know how to behave. It is a question of upbringing and training.
All of these liberal posters are right. Let the kids act any way they wish.
Put in water/spill proof walls, tables, and flooring. Hopefully they will also
install sound proof walls. That way they can just take a power washer to the
area just vacated.No wonder I prefer to eat at home.
Here is my take; I teach my kids to respect people's property, including
eating establishments (being clean ect). Most parents I know don't do this.
It's relative and open to interpretation though. I am a clean freak and one
could argue I don't let me kids just figure out how to eat the right way
more on their own. My approach aside, here is the thing though. If
you are a restaurant that allows kids, then deal with some tables being more
messy than others without shaming and condemning certain customers who provide
you business. It seems common sense to me. Not all kids are the same and
accidents will happen to the best of us. As for sending this family
away, that should hurt business. If you are worried about your carpet you just
cleaned then ditch the carpet. I mean carpet in a restaurant is like carpet in a
bathroom. It's an awful idea. But the worst idea is tearing down a Mom and
her kids (ages 3 and 1) for that tame picture of a so called 'disasterous
mess' posted on facebook. PLEASE!
Jeanie, good for you and your delightful family. I am sure if I ever got a
chance to witness your family it would be a delight to behold indeed. In fact, I feel like I have missed something in my life not witnessing your
delightful family. My kids are raised. I go to restaraunts sometimes
by myself to read. I like it quiet when I read.But you know
something? The world ain't all about me. And the world ain't a kid
free zone. If I wanted no kids around I would stay at home. Parents have every
right to go out with their kids. But a restaraunt is a place where people talk
and socialize. Sometimes loudly. A restaraunt sometimes (all the time) has food
spilled on the floor. Deal with it if you are the owner of a diner. The picture showed hardly any food on the floor. Deal with it. And
yes, parents should teach their kids manners. But sometimes kids just act up.
Especially when they are ONE and THREE. You know what I do when I
see kids "acting up". Smile at 'em and say hi. Get over
Mark,You've never had the pleasure of sitting next to a young
family that is well behaved - because they were trained with restaurant manners
and managed by their parents? It's deligtful to see. Our kids
would make a bit of a mess, but I we'd clean it up as it happened rather
than let it build up to look like a war zone. When they would get figidgity we
would play rhyming or guessing games to keep them distracted and quiet. We would
include them in the conversation instead of ignoring them while we ate. It was
possible to manage the normal behavior of kids as long as they understood the
expectations and we stayed engaged with them. We lived in California
at the time, not Utah, making our little tribe even more of a novelty.
The owner might consider posting a sign: "No children under 5
allowed."If you are a restaurant owner, you must expect to have spills
on your floor. But you don't have toput up with rude patrons,
screaming children, or children running around your restaurant.When your
kids are that young, PLEASE don't take them to restaurants where other
patronsgo there expecting a certain amount of quiet and cleanliness.Now before you jump on me, I might add that after 10 children, 35
grandchildren and 15 great-grandchildren, I know of where I speak.
"Of course, that was in the 1950's. Society expected parents to
discipline their children and no one thought to call child protective services
if the parent gave the child a pop on the hind end to drive home the point.
"Ah yes, DGDENTON from Texas, the glorious 50"s. When no one
thought to call child protective services when a parent popped a child on the
rear. Of course, was there even a child protective service in the 50's? Somehow I don't think so. But, even more so, no one
would think to interfere in the 50s if a parent beat their children. If a father
or mother decided to discipline a child by beating them (you know, really
beating them) no one was going to interfere in a family situation. Including the
law, the police. In fact if a person decided to beat their spouse no one was
going to step in. Or if a husband raped their wife (of course there wasn't
even a law that made that illegal) or molest their children, again, no one was
going to say a thing. Ah yes, the glorious 50s.
I don't think there was any saracsm involved. This is an issue of respect
- or lack thereof. The mother should have been paying more attention to what
her children were doing. I don't like having these kinds of people in my
home, why should a restaurant owner want them in her restaurant?? It isn't
about whether they were paying customers - it's about respect.
Wow. It is amazing how many perfect parents with perfect kids who never make a
peep and sit perfectly quiet with perfect table manners (even at one and three
years of age) we have commenting on this board. It is even more amazing how many
of these comments from these perfect parents with perfect kids with perfect
manners and perfectly quiet dispositions are from Utah. It's
amazing we have coments from people with huge families, with cousins too
numerous to count, and every single child is well behaved and an example that
all others should learn from. Every child a perfect model of what should be
expected of all other children. Never a cranky or bored or ants in the pants (as
my grandmother, very patient grandmother, used to say) child to be seen. All
children being raised by perfect parents. And we have comments from Fathers
whose perfect children never ever (Never! I tell you! Tah Dah!) made a mess.
Never! And we have parents here who always remove their children the second they
make a peep; their children never, ever, bothering others. It's
pleasant being among such perfect people.
When my single Mom saw unruly children in public, she would say "No one
loves those children enough to teach them right from wrong". I agree. Of
course, that was in the 1950's. Society expected parents to discipline
their children and no one thought to call child protective services if the
parent gave the child a pop on the hind end to drive home the point. Our
obsession with tolerating uncivil behavior has resulted in vulgar language and
crudeness in our society. We have no one to blame, but ourselves.
Self-discipline is taught just like anything else with practice and correction.
Too many adults today don't have enough self- discipline to hold down a
menial job. And we wonder why we have self-centred adults who don't know
how to parent. I'm taking the side of the restaurant owner. If the
military wife had not gone to the media, she would not have been embarrassed.
She is the responsible party in this scenario. She better start learning how to
parent now. The consequences for unruly behavior won't be so easy to
resolve when these boys are 16 and 14 years old.
Both parties are at fault here:*Yes, kids make a mess. But just
because you're PAYING (as several of you are fond of saying), it
doesn't give you RIGHTS to do whatever you want. Even as a (temporarily)
single mom, Poole should still teach her children (especially at age 3 - at
least a 1-year-old has an excuse).* McDuff is self-proclaimed
"sarcastic and snarky." What in the world is she doing with a job in a
service industry??? I may have snarky moments, but as a Customer Service
manager, I would *NEVER* put it that way to a paying guest - and I would
*definitely* not post it on social media!!! McDuff needs to find a quiet office
job where she doesn't have to deal with the public.
Sitting at a Panera Bread patio, soft breeze and music. Sweet young family
eating across from us. Newborn in tow, 2 year old eating quietly and happily...
It can be done.
CB said it all! Everyone w/be happy with the fee/deposit concept, except the
abusers. Problem solved. When you open up a business, let us know!
@AmericanMan --- Where were you when your kids were oh say about 6 months to 3
years of age? You apparently missed the spills and the joyous partying when
*some* of the food actually got into the mouth. Yes, teaching
manners and proper behavior is good --- but there is not a whole lot that you
can do about fine motor control development, other than allowing/ encouraging
CS Lewis commented that every generation 'Barbarians" come into the
world and need to be civilized. In any public place, restaurants,
churches, concerts, movies, etc. children thatare being unruly should be
removed by the parent and dealt with.Restaurants are held to certain
health codes that need to be maintained. In other place, silence is required for
others to enjoy what they have, in some cases, paid to attend.Going to a
restaurant was a special treat for our 5 children but also living in a home that
was clean and orderly was too. Children wild at home, will be so
elsewhere.Renters are required to pay fee to ensure that when they leave
their rental, it will be in the same condition it was when they moved in.If a restaurant added a fee for each child, to be refunded if it was left
reasonably clean when they leave, perhaps parents would be more responsible for
their children behavior. (that fee should go to those who have to clean up after
them.) In the end, those unwilling to abide with good behavior in a
business, should be invited not to return, for the sake of paying customers.
Might've given her time to clean up and leave a tip before condemning her.
I'm sure the Mona Lisa didn't look all that great before it was
I haven't read the comments on this article BUT back in the day . . .
Children need to be taught to respect the property of others! Eating out is a
privilege NOT a RIGHT. Mothers who do not teach AND let children clean up after
themselves will have bigger messes later. Guaranteed. Shame on the whiners!
My thoughts are if the cafe owner's intolerant attitude is soooo excessive
she should post a sign that indicates adults only(or extremely factious adults
only!). I'm "over the hill" and headed up the other side of the
mountain and (TRY as hard as I do) I STILL drop some things! I would be nervous
to eat there after reading this article. I DO feel that many parents in the
younger generation really do need to take more care with manners at home and in
public. If the children WERE stomping on the crumbs and jumping up and down as
mentioned then she should have quietly whispered to the mom(or at least talked
softly) to please keep the kids a bit calmer. She has to be extreme in that she
was completely intolerant and excessive with the posting of the pic and the way
she handled it. As far as the Timothy Clemmer comment: Doesn't sound
like an adult comment. Sounds a bit like a spoiled brat not grown up!
I think a one year old child should not be taken into a restaurant. A child of
that age cannot be expected not to fuss or not to make a mess, so give them a
few years to learn some language so you are able to instruct them in basic
social behavior such as not throwing food or screaming. The mess pictured was
not so bad but it seems there were other issues.It is ridiculous to
expect everyone to put up with any and all behavior by little people and a
restaurant owner has a right to eject a customer in the interest of other
customers.It is a symptom of a much bigger problem. Older children
are often out of control and certain parents do not check them and expect others
to tolerate it. Some people think they are being protective of children to not
permit anyone to complain about unruly behavior in those old enough to know
better. You cannot even say anything "negative" about children as this
is reckoned by extremists to be detrimental to a child's "self
image"; you do children, and their "self images", no favors by this
Carpet in a cafe seems to be a bad idea to me. If my kids misbehaved in public
we left. We always left a larger tip if we had our kids with us. I certainly
hope the carpets were cleaned. In fact I would hope for healths sake they are
cleaned regularly and often. Seems to me a little common sense on both ladies
part would have gone a long way towards preventing this incident. No carpet and
kids taken out by parent if they are misbehaving/creating a horrible mess. (I
have seen lots worse messes by adults) Dont forget a little Christian charity to
others from both sides.
I think some parents kind of forget they are responsible for the mess their kids
make. I don't see a problem with refusing service.
When my kids were little, if they made a mess, the adults cleaned it up. As
parents, our test was if we wouldn't leave our own kitchen table like this
then we wouldn't leave a restaurant like this. Funny story: there was
five years between my kids so when my son was one or two and we would go to a
restaurant, his 5 year old big sister would pick up any mess he made. Good big
Any establishment, especially an informal restaurant, must carefully weigh the
consequences of expelling a customer. Having seen my share of misbehaving kids
in restaurants, I can only imagine what was going on. Maybe mom should
reevaluate her child rearing and disciplinary standards. Oh yes, they did
accept her money, but they have perfect right to refund her money and expel her
NOW, or NOT to do business with her in the future. That is their right.
I have a feeling that we are not getting the full story here. Most likely both
sides have been embellished. I have witnessed unruly children in restaurants
myself. I also have witnessed very well behaved children. I have on occasion
asked to be moved because of unruly, noisy, and obnoxious children. I have left
restaurants where the management or owner did not care what children were
allowed to do. We all have choices, sometimes we just have to move on. Perhaps
it is time for this mother and restaurant to both move on.
ImaUteFan, then I'll say it. ALL kids make messes. ALL kids. American Man I guarantee if you ask your wife she will say the kids made
messes growing up. For those saying parents should not take kids
into this restaraunt: the place is a diner, fer crying out loud, it ain't
no five star restaraunt. And the kids are one and three? And
that's ALL the mess they made?! That's it? A few crumbs on the floor?
Heck, I make a bigger mess then that! I hope that owner's
business fails, and fast. To go on Facebook and post about your costumers like
that? Truly a business owner that doesn't want to be in business. If I
lived in that area I would go into that restaraunt exactly one time: to tell the
owner I will never set foot in her business again. Life is too short to give
money to childish business owners.
I have witnessed out of control kids at restaurants. More often than not, it is
not due to the child's age but rather to poor parenting. If you are a
guest at a restaurant, then you should keep your children under control. You
are paying for a meal, not to make a mess and disrupt the meals of other
patrons. If this woman was embarrassed, it should be by her own poor parenting,
not because she was asked to leave!
I say congrats to Rainy! She's my kinda owner. Put a BIG sign out front
and save all polite customers and future business:"All considerate
customers welcome. The rest of y'all, visit next door." Then all the
inconsiderate, whiners, easily offended are free to dine together.I'm a mother of 5, oldest of 6, lost count of all the cousins on both
sides of our huge, loving family. Family reunions are glorious, with chilluns
running everywhere and we all have a fab time. No one corrects other children
because we were all raised to be courteous. We excuse the toddlers and lovingly
help the growing ones learn responsibility. Had any (yes, read "any")
of my relatives' kids made that mess, they would have cleaned it up and/or
gone to the management and apologized.Same rules apply at family
camp outs. Those more inclined to messiness naturally realize that the other
sites are more fun when clean and organized, and they soon adjust. They
don't need to be belittled.My sign would read:
"Cleanliness is next to You know Who. Be careful. He may visit any
The customers who were not a part of the messy family paid a price just in being
there. The owner had to choose between tolerance of one customer-set verses the
ambience for the rest of the customers. The restaurant owner sided with the
Come on people, this was a cafe, not a 4-star place. If they just paid for a
carpet cleaning then they must have been dirty in the first place. If you have
to clean the carpet all the time, why don't you get a nice tile ir wood
floor? I think this place just lost a bunch of business.
Kids are not the problem. It is parents who seem to refuse to impose any kind of
discipline. They let them run wild without any admonishment at all. I see this
far too often. When I was a kid, I don't recall ever seeing this kind of
Nothing I have read justifies any behavior by the restaurant owner. 1. Unless you are a private club that bars children, suck it up.2.
Adults make messes too, suck it up3. The restaurant business is full of
messes, suck it up4. Posting about it on social media is bad form and
shows lack of class, suck it up5. Embarrassing the woman in front of other
customers is bad form, suck it up.
This looks like a case of lack of respect and insight on both parties'
accounts. The shop owner could certainly have found a more sensitive way of
informing her patrons of their misbehavior. At the same time, the mother, as all
parents who decide to take their small children out to public places, has a
responsibility to train her children to behave courteously so embarrassing
incidents like this one can be avoided. I have six kids, who I am
extremely proud of. They have to become adults sooner or later. My wife and I
work hard to make sure they know how they should behave in public. And for that
reason I take serious issue with anyone who demands that my children be kept
from the public eye simply because they are kids. Moreover I would encourage
parents of small children everywhere to get out with the kids in public and have
positive experiences outside the home. But for everyone's sake, train them!
If you don't train your children at home, someone would do it outside. I
hope that mom start the training now.
Two points:1. When we took our large group of little kids out to eat we
made sure they understood our expectations of their behavior and we made sure to
kept the baby entertained. We knew others were paying money to have a nice
dinner and deserved to enjoy it. There were many times as we would walk in to a
restaurant with our crew and received despairing looks from other childless
patrons only to have them stop by our table and compliment our kids on their
good manners. It is not polite to assume your children are more important than
everyone else in a restaurant. A restaurant is not your home. 2. Our
sons have been bus boys. Yes they are paid, but not much and they are often
understaffed and very busy. A really messy table is inconsiderate and the tip
money goes mostly to to waitress, not the poor kid that cleans up your
^Are kids are used to eating out (not used to making messes lol). Worried about
my wording. :)
I still don't understand why any restaurant has carpet on their floor.
That's gross. Do you have carpet in your dining room at home? You can't except a 1 year old to be neat and tidy when they eat. They
don't have the coordination. A 3 year old might be a little messy, but not
too bad. There was one time where we ate at a Chinese food restaurant that DID
have carpeted floors (yuck btw) and I DID clean up the big mess on the floor
that my 1 year old made. But if we were at Chilis where they have tile floors I
would have just tipped well and let them sweep it up. Part of the
reason we go out to eat is that there are waiters and waitresses to wait on us,
and people to bus the tables. I would include sweeping under the table as part
of that. Our kids are used to it and are RARELY disruptive. When they are we
If you have a cafe or restaurant, expect spills, because it happens at every
eating establishment! You paid $50 to get the spill cleaned on the carpet.
Clean it yourself! Wipe it, or get a spot remover at Home Depot and clean it.
It's not difficult!
If you can't take the heat, get out of the food business. It is a pic of
some crumbs, suck it up restaurant owner.
Shame on you who suggested that parents should take kids to
"Wendy's". Come on, people - we, parents, have the right to go
anywhere we want. WE ARE PAYING! If you don't pay my bill, don't tell
me where I should go with my kids. I believe it is true that there are more kids
friendly environments - still I also believe I should spend my whole life just
taking my family to certain fast-food places.Indeed, the bottom line
here that some parents do not teach their children to clean after themselves. I
worked for many restaurants before, including at Temple Square Hospitality, and
have noticed that many parents actually make more mess than their children.That lady does have the right to refuse service to anyone she wants, but
she was rude, especially because she probably didn't even clean it, someone
who works for her did.
I listened to an interview with this lady on the Dori Monson show in Seattle and
she seemed quite reasonable. These kids weren't just dropping crumbs on the
floor and screaming, they were stomping around and squashing the crumbs into the
floor. And she was in the middle of a business meeting in the back when it had
all started so she had to cut her meeting short because of it. Plus, nobody
would have even known who the customer was if she hadn't gone blabbing to
the media. This is just another example of someone expecting to be able to do
whatever she wants regardless of how it affects other people and then playing
the victim card when they fight back. I feel no sympathy for her at all. I do,
however, feel sympathy for her kids that they are quite likely going to grow up
not learning the importance of personal accountability. Such a shame.
@ImaUteFan: I am sorry, but you did say "All kids make messes". Go back
and read your first comment. Messes are done by throwing food on the floor. My
kids never did that.
Wow, our society is now anti-children. We expect sterile, clean surfaces
everywhere and if a "contaminated" child enters a restaurant where the
"adult" people are eating, then we must now kick the kids out.I can't believe this. We have some serious problems as a society and its
not the kids.How about this: if you are an adult that doesn't
like kids being noisy or messy, stay home in your quiet, clean house! If you are like this manager in the coffee shop, get a different job where you
won't have to interact with children. Maybe a liquor store or something
would be better suited for you.
1 and 3 year olds, I'm surprised that there are not more crumbs on the
floor. I don't see that they made such a mess. The owner may have been
particularly sensitive since she had recently paid to have the carpet cleaned.
I suppose this is why most restaurants have linoleum or tile flooring, food gets
@AmericanMan - you misquoted me. I did not say "ALL kids make messes."
I agree with Melanna. At some point in their lives, one of your
kids made a mess. To say otherwise is simply denial.
The fact that her husband is deployed has nothing to do with this... That is
unless it has been shown that children with deployed fathers are poorly
disciplined and out of control, which I doubt. Some parents just get
so used to the inappropriate behavior of their children (even in public) that
they are surprised when they are actually called out on it.Bottom
line: Deployed husband has nothing to do with it, dine at wendy's.
Teach your kids to behave in public and respect those around them. I don't
think that is too much to ask. This lady has a difficult time as an essentially
single mom but I have a widowed daughter with five children and I have never
seen them behave this poorly in a public place.I is also
disrespectful of the other restaurant guests to have this kind of behavior from
children. They are paying for a meal, good service, and an pleasant eating
environment. Your children don't trump that fact.
Parents let kids get away with deplorable behaviour in public. I'd love to
see more of 'em punted.
My child (and myself, on occasion) has made messes at restaurants and in other
public places. It happens - especially when children are small.My
child would help clean up the table and floor before we left and I would always
leave extra in the tip to make up for the extra work. If you
don't want people to make a mess in your place of business, don't own
a restaurant.@ American man: Really? Your children never, ever,
ever made a mess? Not anywhere? Would your wife agree with that assessment?
@ ImaUteFan: I take exception to your remark That "All kids make
messes". My wife and I raiser three Happy kids and they didn't make
messes. We taught them good manners and expected them to conform.
Bottom line: If your kids are prone to be messy and throw food around, go to a
kid-friendly restaurant like McDonalds or Wendys. I feel for the restaurant
owner. She has a right to expect courteous customers even if the woman's
husband was deployed. I appreciate his service. Please give the same
appreciation to businesses who require good manners and civilly for each and
every one of us.
To Timothy Clemmer who was quoted in the article: I suppose you
were born an adult, right? Before you made your hateful comment about children,
did you happen to think that anyone ever changed your diaper, wiped your nose or
cleaned up the messes YOU made as a child?What a selfish, ridiculous
comment to make. Kids make messes, deal with it.