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Comments about ‘Panelists discuss leaving and returning to the LDS Church at FAIR conference’

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Published: Friday, Aug. 9 2013 12:10 p.m. MDT

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Mountanman
Hayden, ID

@ J.D. To answer your questions;
#1: I don't read the Watchtower because it is not scripture to me.
#2: For me, yes I do need my religion to follow Christ because He is my religion. Otherwise, where would I go? "one faith, one Lord, one baptism".

1.96 Standard Deviations
OREM, UT

The Scientist:

Here are some basic scriptures why church members use the word “lost” when someone leaves the church:

1 Nephi 8:23 – "And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost."

(Lehi’s dream has a few references to how people get lost and how it relates to the gospel)

Luke 15:4,6 – "What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?" … "And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost."

(Christ sometimes referred to people as sheep, and the importance of all of them hearing His voice and having one fold and one shepherd)

sharrona
layton, UT

RE: Mountanman. “one Lord.” The title Lord is the translation of the Greek term kurios, is one of Paul’s favorite names for Jesus. Since the Septuagint, which the apostle often quotes, renders the covenant name of God Yahweh as kurios, Paul’s frequent use of the same title for Christ, it indicates that he had a high Christology, a doctrine of Christ that equates Him with the one true God and covenant Lord of Israel. Paul viewed Jesus as God Himself. As there is only one Lord, salvation rests in Him alone (John 14:6), and people experience true unity one with another only upon this ultimate foundation.

Resting on Christ alone, we also share one baptism (Eph. 4:5) — the one baptism of the Spirit by which we are ingrafted into Christ Jesus when we first believe. This invisible baptism is related to water baptism, yet it is not identical to it. Still, just as we are baptized by the Spirit into Christ only one time, so too should we have only one experience of the sacrament that signifies this ingrafting — water baptism into the name of the triune God.

Bill Reel
Sandusky, OH

I am Bill Reel, the same mentioned in the article. Two thoughts. One - I never left the Church. While the other three left I handled my faith crisis while active in the faith.
2nd My podcast is designed to specifically help people in a faith crisis "lead with faith" but also validating their journey. We so often are in such a rush to defend the church and give answers that we often do so at the risk of adding hurt and anguish to the person with doubts. There is a better way. For those here who want to check out the podcast, it is found at mormondiscussion dot podbean dot com. I interview average everyday people who want to share their faith journey, experts on an issue, and thoughts on gospel principles

Brahmabull
sandy, ut

I recently left the church, less than a year ago. I can tell you that I have never felt better about where I am and who I am. I would much rather be honest with myself and my family that I don't believe it then pretend that I believe just to please everybody. I honestly don't believe and it would be dishonest of me to say otherwise. I think many others are in a difficult position like I was because the tradition in Utah families is to be mormon and stay mormon. It is hard for people to break the news to families for fear of backlash and personal rebuke. It is well worth it to live your own life with your own beliefs. It isn't fun to live in somebody else's beliefs if you don't believe them.

Moontan
Roanoke, VA

I wish I understood why people who leave the church continue to visit here and offer their contrary opinions. I am not being disrespectful. Not at all. I truly wonder why or how someone could leave an organization, yet not really leave one of its gathering places. A very real mystery to me, that is.

Craig Clark
Boulder, CO

sharonna,

"....Paul’s frequent use of the same title for Christ, it indicates that he had a high Christology...."
__________

That's putting it conservatively. Paul was the primary inventor of Christology.

********************

"....Paul viewed Jesus as God Himself...."
__________

And I still don't know where he got that notion. The closest Jesus himself comes to suggesting anything that grand is in his claim to know the “Father” like no one else does with a special relationship to him. From that point to reaching the conclusion that Jesus himself must be God is a very big leap.

sharrona
layton, UT

RE:Craig Clark, Jesus himself must be God,is a very big leap.

By accepting worship, Jesus shows Himself to be the Lord God Almighty:
Mt 2:11: … and they fell down and worshiped him. Mt 4:33: And those in the boat worshiped him… Luke 24:52 .. And they worshiped him….

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word(Jesus) was God, The Word became flesh..(John 1:1,14).

No one has ever seen God. The only one(monogenes), himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known(John 1:18 NET)

God said unto Moses,” I am HE *WHO IS=“(the BEING): and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, HE *WHO IS hath sent me unto you. (LXX Ex 3:14)
.
Jesus,*WHO IS=(The one Being)occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5.

Hereby perceive we the love of God, because He laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.(1John 3:16 KJV)God on the Cross.

Moontan
Roanoke, VA

Sharrona ... God is omniscient. Christ was not omniscient ('only my Father in Heaven knows' when the end would come). Christ was not God Himself. He is presently at the right hand of the Father. Not at the right hand of himself, but of His Father.

When people quote John 1:1, there ought to be a law that says they are required to add the very next sentence, which would be John 1:2. "He was with God in the beginning."

That is two beings.

Dennis
Harwich, MA

I've been "lost" for going on 15+ years now.
I'm a very nice man and am no way looking to be "found".
The missionaries came by my place of employment looking to "find" me recently. Having spent 55 years in the Church, numerous positions held from a mission in Scotland to the High Council, I had plenty of life experience to share with these two young men and we laughed for a good 2 hours. When they left they understood two thing. I am not lost and I love life.
My experiences with others over the years have defined "lost" differently. Many of those that leave (going to Church on a weekly basis) come back because they miss the culture. It's the culture that binds the Church together not the doctrine. It's always been that way.

sharrona
layton, UT

@ “John 1:2 That is two beings”. True, and the Holy Spirit; these three are one=(heis, 1 God ) these three agree as one( in unity=*en,preposition). (1John 5:7,8 KJV translation & JST). 3 persons one God. "one in substance”. Express image of his person(substance, 5287).Hebrews 1:3

God *created everything through him, and *nothing was created except through him. John 1:2-4) The Word(Jesus) gave life to everything that was created. A clear statement of creation ex nihlio.
“came into existence (*ginomai, Grk).” Or ; “nothing came into existence(*ginomai, Grk)
RE: Moontan, “God is omniscient. Christ was not omniscient.”

Hypostatic Union, two natures (Divine and human) Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8). He is fully God and fully man (Col. 2:9); he has two natures: God and man. He is 100% God and 100% man. He never lost his divinity. He continued to exist as God when he became a man and added human nature to Himself (Phil. 2:5-11) see, Kenosis doctrine.

Brahmabull
sandy, ut

Moontan

I can answer that. I read the newspaper, online. When I see an article I want to read, I read it. And if I want to comment then I do. You will see my comments on other articles too. I don't play for the jazz, I don't live in Salt Lake county but I can still comment and give my opinion just as you can. Is that easy enough?

Moontan
Roanoke, VA

Sharonna ... you can't make one being from two without teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. It cannot be done. Sorry, but Christ is sitting by his Father today.

Brahmabull ... let's not pull the 'rights' card here, please. Of course you can, and I've enjoyed many of your comments, honestly. The question was why. I think those who say they've left the Church yet still come here haven't gone as far as they think. These folk don't invite themselves other places with which they've nothing in common. Why here? I think its an attempt to reassure oneself that things really are different now, I've really left the Church. That, and a need for many critics and skeptics and ex's to just throw insults to make oneself feel justified in their ex status.

I might be wrong, yes. I admit it. But I don't think so.

Brahmabull
sandy, ut

Moontan

I wasn't pulling the rights card, per se. I was only saying that I and others comment on a number of different articles on different subjects. I am frequently commenting on other religious articles as well, not just mormon. You may be right... maybe some do come here to make themselves feel better. I doubt that is the norm though. Maybe they want to identify with others who don't believe anymore. I guess because I was mormon for over 25 years and have a pioneer heritage and am a direct descendant to the 3rd prophet (John Taylor) I will always be linked to mormonism. My heritage is mormon so that will never change. So while I don't believe the doctrinal aspect of the church, I am still very involved in the culture because of where I live and my family ties. Plus, it is nice to read others who have had similiar experiences as I have with leaving the church etc. Also, wouldn't you get extremely bored if it was only believers commenting on these stories? That would get boring... (sarcastic)

Moontan
Roanoke, VA

Like I said, I may be wrong. Perhaps I generalized when I shouldn't have. Now I think on it, maybe the distinguishing characteristic between ex's whose presence here is legit vs those with ulterior motives is the absence of insults in one group, and an abundance in the other.

You should indeed be proud of your heritage, whatever you believe or don't. Good on you. I taught my kids that they didn't have to believe what I believe, but they did have to give a cogent reason for whatever they believe. Two of the three do not believe. But they are still mine and I could not love them less, and I'll have words with any critic who comes their way.

Its the insults flying in comment sections that bother me. From both sides, believers and non. Vicious at times, tho not so much on DN. Check out the Christian Post, though. And at times I've found myself trading insult for insult.

No more. If I can't reflect the love of Christ hereabouts, I just need to shut up.

let's roll
LEHI, UT

Like Sister Eyring, I've found some deluded, simple minded and self-righteous folks inside the Church, just as I've found folks like that outside the Church.

Membership in the Church doesn't exempt you from those characteristics, nor does being an "active" member. Applying Gospel principles will help.

That said, I note that you can be an honest, moral person of integrity without having the Gospel and many people are. If you consider the Gospel in its fullness, you'll realize it is likely that the majority of God's children who will dwell in the Celestial Kingdom, will not have been Mormons.

My attempt to achieve honesty, morality and integrity has been facilitated by the Gospel, with the additional benefit of feeling of the unconditional love of my Heavenly Father and the grace resulting from the atoning sacrifice of his Son.

My experience is that we are often far too quick to characterize people--for good or ill. For example, I've never found the characterization of someone as an "active" member (i.e. comes to Church regularly) to be very helpful in understanding the state of their spiritual health

The Caravan Moves On
Enid, OK

The Church is true. I'm sorry when some in it leave and glad when they return.

What more can be said?

Those that constantly criticize the LDS church are not "fair", or "balanced" in their approach. They see no good within Mormonism because they want to see no good in Mormonism. They scream "objectivity" when they close their eyes to most of what they see.

I have a dear friend who has left the Church and I am very, very grateful that he speaks of the Church's encouragement of strong family ties and emphasis on work and personal responsibility. As long as he refrains from offering 100% criticism and condemnation of Latter-day Saints, there is hope....

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