TheSportsAuthority"Funny how Texas A&M's head-to-head
win over Alabama was COMPLETELY IGNORED by every single voter in the final
polls."So if Texas A&M were Utah, and BYU was Alabama, Utah
fans would be claiming that Utah was BETTER than the national champion, even
though BYU finished #1 in the polls, with every single #1 vote in both polls,
and Utah finished #5 in both polls.All based on the fallacious
argument that "All of the irrelevant secondary facts in the world won't
change the only stat that counts: HEAD-TO-HEAD COMPETITION!"
GoRed"All of the irrelevant secondary facts in the world
won't change the only stat that counts: HEAD-TO-HEAD COMPETITION!"If that were true, thenUNLV(2-10) was BETTER than
Utah(9-4)Colorado(3-10) was BETTER than Utah(8-5)andTexas A&M was BETTER than undisputed National Champion Alabama(which, btw, received EVERY 1st-place vote in both the AP and Coaches
polls).Funny how Texas A&M's head-to-head win over Alabama
was COMPLETELY IGNORED by every single voter in the final polls.Despite Utah fans' frantic and emotional attempts to ignore reality,
there's far more to judging which team is BETTER each season, than one
*Yawn*All of the irrelevant secondary facts in the world won't
change the only stat that counts: HEAD-TO-HEAD COMPETITION!That
would be 3 in a row, 4 out of 5, 8 out of 11, and overall 56-34-4.Advantage Utah. Forever.
TheSportsAuthority"Bronco had three very good, 11-win, Top 15
seasons in 2006, 2007, and 2009."Outside of their undefeated
12-0 and 13-0 seasons in 2004 and 2008, the Utes have never had an 11-win
season.Put another way, Bronco had more 11-win seasons in the space
of four years, than the Utes have had in their entire history.During
the same period, Bronco had four straight AP Top 25 finishes; the Utes have
never had more than two AP Top 25 finishes in a row.
Uteology"In the last three years in MWC:"Gotta
laugh at the time snippets you're forced to use to help you sleep at
night.Why not use the last five years in the MWC, giving Bronco a
year to rebuild from Crowton's ashes?Overall Record
(2006-2010)Bronco 50-15Kyle 50-15AP Top 25Bronco
16, 14, 25, 12Kyle 2, 18Coaches Top 25Bronco 15, 15, 21,
12Kyle 4, 18, 23Top 15 FinishesBronco 3Kyle 1Conference ChampionshipsBronco 2Kyle 110+ Win
SeasonsBronco 4Kyle 2Head-to-headBronco 3Kyle 2Conference FinishesBronco 1, 1, 3, 2, 3 - Average
2.0Kyle 3, 3, 1, 3, 2 - Average 2.4Average Sagarin RankingBronco 26Kyle 29---------------------Since then,
Independent/PAC eraBronco 18-8Kyle 13-12Top 25
FinishesBronco 1Kyle 0Bowl WinsBronco 2Kyle
1Average Sagarin RankingBronco 30Kyle 50Kyle
had one great, undefeated, Top 5, flash-in-the-pan season, in 2008.Bronco had three very good, 11-win, Top 15 seasons in 2006, 2007, and 2009.Overall, Bronco > Kyle.
@PAC manYou mean the same flash-in-the-pan 2008 season that you
Quested for? That same flash-in-the-pan season that Bronco is still
Questing" for 6 years later? In the last three years in MWC:1. TCU 36-3 (all 3 loses to AP ranked teams)2. Utah 33-6 (all 6
loses to AP ranked teams)3. BYU 28-11In 2010 BYU finished 5th
overall in a 3 team MWC at 6-6. You started out 2-5 including being exposed by
4-8 Utah State 38-16. Then qualified for a Bowl by beating teams with a combined
record of 9-40 and because of an alum in the replay booth. Beat 6-7 UTEP in New
Mexico and carried Bronco off the field. Since then...1. TCU 18-7 (11-2 MWC 7-6 Big 12)2. BYU 18-8 (Indy)2. Utah 13-12
(PAC-12)AP Rankings: Bronco - 2006 #16, 2007 #14, 2008 #25,
2009 #12Kyle - 2008 #2, 2009 #18 So Bronco has 0 undefeated
teams, 0 BCS wins, 0 top 10, 2 top 15, 4 top 25Kyle has the highest ranked
mid-major team under BCS rules
Spokane UteOne game does not a season make; and one season does not
a career make.I know it bugs U that Bronco has achieved more overall
than Kyle during the Bronco/Kyle era, but that's just the way it is.
Ute4life,Fair enough. I also think the coaching staff is going through a
learning curve as they adjust to playing tougher teams week in and week out. I
just hope the fans are patient with them as they adjust.
@Cougars1:There was no spin. I agree wholeheartedly with U90. It's a
pretty simple concept. And as for your question about the PAC I can honestly
answer that the Utes have entered into a much tougher conference with teams who
have had years to recruit higher caliber players. That coupled with the Utes
trouble at QB and last year on the O line has made the transition difficult.
@clehmanThe article wasn't "proof" of anything, it was
speculation based on some similarities, and yes there are quite a few
similarities. I'm guessing you are one of those guys that takes every
single thing literally and has no concept of sarcasm, generalities, or even
similarities. You are incapable of disseminating the difference between
speculation and statements of fact.The article was SPECULATION based
on similarities. I can see the similarities, I can see the point rock was
making, I can take it for what it is. Of course no one KNOWS how utah's
future will turn out but all we have to guess with is the past and the present
and the past and the present is not very good.
2b"Why don't you list top 5 finishes and head to head vs
the two? Also your bowl record for the Bronco/Kyle era is way off"two words: reading comprehensionThe bowl record listed was
"since" Kyle's flash-in-the-pan 2008 season:Bowl
RecordBronco 4-0Kyle 2-1Kyle gets credit for his one
great flash-in-the-pan season one Top 5 finish, but his overall record still
falls short of Bronco's.Overall, Bronco has three times more
Top 15 finishes, twice as many AP Top 25 finishes, twice as many conference
championships, a better overall record 74-29 versus 70-32, one more bowl, and no
losing seasons.Kyle has a 5-3 advantage head-to-head win.Bronco has a 5-3 advantage in overall records and rankings.btw,
forgot to give Kyle credit for his two losses to 10-loss teams, and his losses
to every bottom dwelling team in the MWC - Wyoming, Colorado State, New Mexico,
and UNLV - teams Bronco never lost to.
U90,Have you not read my posts. Until BYU beats Utah, they really have
nothing to brag about as far as the rivalry is concerned. That doesn't mean
that BYU didn't have a better overall year than Utah last year. But yes,
Utah gets the bragging rights.Ute4life,Nice spin. BYU
fans talk about how bad Utah is and will be in the PAC and they immediately
start talking about how they own BYU. Hence, the comments about BYU being
Utah's measuring stick. As in Utah thinks it a successful season if they
beat BYU. After all, that is the first thing Utah fans like to point at when the
subject comes up as to how pathetic Utah is in the PAC. Please explain why Utah
has yet to beat a PAC team with a winning record without mentioning anything
@DHI was using your fallacy as an illustration, not as a point in
any of my own arguments.It's not about whether or not Utah is
literally Arizona or vice versa. The argument simply can't be made that
Utah will end up like Arizona in football because there are a few similarities
between the two. The reason? There are probably far more differences
between the two programs than similarities... which renders the whole article
unreliable as any type of proof.I can't wait till the actual
ball is in the air and the scores are on the board so the BYU trolls will crawl
back under their bridges for another year.
@LonestarrunnerWhy do never include head to head record or BCS
bowls? Do you ever get tired of posting the same biased, slanted stats over, and
over again? It grows old and tiresome.
Cougars1,In most cases Utah fans are not gauging success on
comparisons with BYU. Beating BYU seems rather easy lately. What ends up
happening on these threads is BYU fan will say, "Utah is a doormat".
Then Ute fan responds with, "BYU can't beat that doormat, what does
that say about BYU?' To which the Y fan response, "BYU is your
measuring stick, therefore you must be little brother". It's all pretty foolish, so I'll tell you what, I will agree that
BYU has more national prominence all-time in football, if you will agree that
Utah has owned BYU and has more national prominence over the past 10 years (kind
of the opposite of basketball). Can you agree to that?
@lonestarrunner....If you want to talk relevant, recent history:During the Bronco/Kyle eraTop 25 FinishesBronco 5Kyle
3Top 15 FinishesBronco 3Kyle 1Why don't
you list top 5 finishes and head to head vs the two? Also your bowl record for
the bronco/kyle era is way off
I didn't say you did. I told you that Utah fans use BYU as a measuring
stick to show that Utah is better when responding to a BYU fan.
@clehmanTalk about "fallacious". You try to use washington
st as a point in an argument about utah being compared to arizona while trying
to say you can't make an argument between utah and arizona. Why is it ok to
compare utah to washington st but not arizona? Typical utah "fan" double
standard on display. You are correct, utah IS NOT arizona. utah is a
worse location, with worse weather, and has far less funding than arizona does.
utah is a btter location than washington st, you'll notice I said utah was
in the 2nd worst location, but utah's funding is less than washington
st's so you probably need to do your research there. All in all
utah has the most knocks against it in the conference when you compare all the
factors needed to be good. I showed them pretty well. In fact utah doesn't
have any advantages at all when compared to the remainder of the conference.
They may have one or two advantages over a couple of the other teams that occupy
the bottom of the conference with them but on the whole they trail even those
other bottom feeders.
@clehmanOh I got your "point" just fine, you just were wrong
about it. The point of the article, which you have apparently missed completely,
is that utah appears to be heaed toward the bottom of the conference with no
rose bowl appearances ever, and that is exactly what arizona has been in the pac
10. So no utah cannot litterally be arizona, and you taking it that litterally
is pretty amusing, the point rock made was utah is looking like they'll be
every bit as pathetic as arizona and I would say that appears to be a very apt
comparison on rocks part.
Utefan4LyfLOL at your delusional spin. You can compare
teams based on SOS, but you can't compare teams based on ranking? You do realize, don't you, that SOS is derived by adding up the rankings
of all opponents, and then dividing by the number of opponents to calculate
their average ranking?And, since when does one game in twelve
provide definitive proof of which team is better?Was UNLV(10-2)
BETTER than Utah(9-4) in 2007?Was Colorado(10-3) BETTER than Utah(8-5) in
2011?Was Texas A&M BETTER than Alabama in 2012?BETTER not
just for one game, but BETTER overall for the entire season?It's laughable that Utah fans continue to claim something that they
don't even believe themselves, except when it comes to comparing BYU and
Utah.It simply demonstrates how desperately you'll cling to any
argument, regardless of how ridiculous, as long as it gives you even the tiniest
hope of being better than BYU at something.Higher Ranking = Better
TeamEven you believe that, so stop pretending it's not true.
Ute4,I am not arguing that BYU is better. They need to neat Utah to prove
that. I never said BYU was better. All I am saying is that Utah fans measure the
success of their team based on how they do against BYU. Once again, show me
where I ever said BYU was better.
Cougars1: You are still misinterpreting. I'm not measuring Utah's
overall success, I'm measuring their success against BYU because I'm
responding to a BYU fan and that is only thing that counts. Unless both teams
play the exact same schedule, then the rest doesn't matter. I can get into
SOS and some other stats, but that still doesn't definitely tell us who is
better. Only playing each other does. So, therefore, Utah is better than BYU
because our record against BYU proves it.
Ute4life,My mistake. Hank was comparing players. But there you go
measuring Utah's success based upon their record against BYU. Great, let us
know when Utah will beat a team on the PAC with a winning record.
Did someone on here seriously say that they think that BYU will be competing for
National Championships?! Is that a joke?
U 90Since when did the modern era begin in 2000?If you
want to talk relevant, recent history:During the Bronco/Kyle eraTop 25 FinishesBronco 5Kyle 3Top 15 FinishesBronco 3Kyle 1Conference ChampionshipsBronco 2Kyle 1OverallBronco has finished ahead of Kyle in records
AND rankings in 5 of the last 8 seasons.Since Kyle's
flash-in-the-pan 2008 season:Top 25 WinsBronco 2 - #18/#18 and
#16/#Kyle 1 - ur/#25Top 25 RankingsBronco 2 - #12/#12,
ur/#25Kyle 2 - #18/#18, ur/#23Bowl RecordBronco 4-0Kyle 2-1
@Y>U: How easy is it to determine a win-loss record by taking a subsection
of the entire range? You can see that it can work to anybody's advantage.
Are you saying every win or loss prior to 1963 should just be wiped clean? If
that is the case, I agree with U 90, every loss prior to 2000 should be removed.
After all, we're in a new century. In that case, it will take at least four
years to catch up. Still, good luck with that.
@phoenix"What happened at Arizona is exactly the same thing that
IS happening at Utah."It's like talking to a wall. A few
similarities don't mean anything when there are as many or more differences
between the schools.@DHYour logic is fallacious. You say
that Utah's funding and location are at the bottom of the conference in
your argument that Utah will never be a top team in the conference; yet
Washington State makes less money, has a worse location, and has been to
multiple Rose Bowls.I'm not saying Utah will be a perennial
Rose Bowl team and never have. I'm not one of those Ute fans.I'm just saying that this is a really fallacious argument in total,
because Arizona is not Utah. Period.
U 90@Swoop: "When you look at W-L records shouldn't you
also look at SOS?"Why? The rankings already consider
SOS when they're calculated, so why are Utah fans constantly whining about
SOS?During the last two seasons, with SOS already calculated in the
rankings formula, BYU's average Sagarin ranking has been #30; Utah's
has been #50.A team that's proven that they're capable of
losing to ANYBODY (see UNLV and Colorado), can't be considered a lock to
beat anybody.Playing BYU's schedule, it's a given that
Utah would have lost to Utah State, Oregon State, Notre Dame, Georgia Tech,
Boise State, and San Jose State, so at best, Utah would have finished 6-6, with
a loss to SDSU in the Poinsettia Bowl, to finish 6-7. With an upset loss to any
of BYU's remaining opponents, the Utes would have finished 5-7, just like
they finished against their own slightly tougher schedule.
what was interesting last year is that USU beat Utah, Utah Beat BYU and BYU
barely beat USU on BYU's home turf. USU has the best QB in the state in
Chuckie K. I am glad that Brad Rock agrees with my vision for Utah
football. Utah and Colorado were invited into the Pac10 in order to take the
place of ASU and AZ as non-threats to the PAC12 championship. As USC and Oregon
exchange good seasons for great seasons tainted by cheating Utah will
occasionally be allowed to win the southern division but likely not get to the
rose bud bowl.
@Y>U Step into the really modern era.Since 2000 Utah
leads the head-to-head 8-5More importantly, in top 5 rankings Utah
leads BYU 2-0. In big-time bowl victories Utah is 2 while BYU doesn't even
have an appearance. At BYU's current rate of getting in to a
top level bowl, it will take approximately infinity to match Utah's
@Swoop "5 of the last 8 seasons, BYU has finished with a better record and
higher ranking than Utah"When you look at W-L records
shouldn't you also look at SOS? One team is 5-7 with an SOS on the low
40's, while the other team went 7-5 in the regular season with an SOS in
the high 60's. The 5-7 team then goes on to beat the 7-5 team in the
head-to-head match up. Who's the better team?Utah probably
would have finished 7-5 or better if they would have loaded up their schedule
with Idaho, Hawaii, Weber State and New Mexico State. There's more to the
analysis than just W-L records. That's why a 2 loss SEC team can make it
to the NC game... SOS.
Utefan4LyfStep into the modern era.Since color
television replaced radio and b&w television,BYU is 29-21 versus
Utah.More importantly, in the national rankings, BYU leads Utah 17-5
in AP Top 25 finishes.At Utah's current rate of one AP Top 25
finish every 13 seasons, it'll take the Utes approximately 156 years to
match BYU's current total of 17 AP Top 25 finishes.Of course,
since BYU has averaged one AP Top 25 finish every 2 seasons for the past 36
seasons, by the time Utah reaches SEVENTEEN, BYU will have approximately
NINETY-TWO AP Top 25 finishes!
Hank Pym: Did you pay attention to The HOF game last night? Did you notice that
an undrafted Ute had 2 sacks? Shelby > Ansah.LOL. That's a
laugher. You do realize that was like a JV AAU game and the real players that
actually played hardly even broke a sweat right Hank? Good for Shelby. >
Ansah? That's a good one!
Cougars1: Tell me which individual player I was comparing. I was simply pointing
out the following record: 56-34-4. So, actually, you'll need 23
years of straight victories to be better than us. Until both schools play the
same opponents each year, this is the only record that matters between the two
Ute4life,Once again you compare all things Utah to BYU. You have
just measured Utah's success based on whether a Utah player is better than
a BYU player.
Utefan4Lyf"You have no basis for telling us BYU is better until
the record proves so..."5 of the last 8 seasons, BYU has
finished with a better record and higher ranking than Utah.BYU's record proves that BYU is better.In fact, BYU has
almost as many AP Top 25 finishes in the last 7 years (2006, 2007, 2008, and
2009), as Utah has in their ENTIRE HISTORY.The overall record speaks
for itself; Utah fans simply choose to ignore it - one game does not a season
Cougars1: BYU is Utah's measuring stick when discussing sports with BYU
fans. You have no basis for telling us BYU is better until the record proves so,
and I believe that will take another 20 years of consistent victories. So, good
luck with that.
I'm not sure why it matters whether BYU lost by one point or 20? At the end
of the season all that really matters to most people is whether there is a tick
in the W or L column. As I see it, the Utes are two years into a new future with
some awesome games ahead of us. No Ute fan is delusional enough to think
we're going undefeated; however, each year we'll get better and
increase our talent level. Will we get to the Rose Bowl every year? Most likely
not, but I believe we'll start bowling almost every year. And every year,
whether we bowl or not, I will still enjoy coming onto the board and telling the
Cougar fans who attempt to berate my Utes just what the overall record between
the two teams is. Because that is what matters between rivals. The final score.
re: Cougars1Did you pay attention to The HOF game last night? Did
you notice that an undrafted Ute had 2 sacks? Shelby > Ansah.
We would have been in the Rose bowl a bunch by now. We make it to ROse bowl most
UteologyIt must be so frustrating, having such an embarrassment of
talent, and still not be good enough to be ranked in the Top 25 or qualify for a
bowl game.During the Independent/PAC eraTop 25
FinishesBYU 1Utah 0Bowl GamesBYU 2Utah 1Average Sagarin RankingBYU 30Utah 50Of course,
you'll trying to spin Utah's sorry performance as simply a result of
playing a stronger schedule, but the truth is, rankings are based on record
versus schedule.How else do you explain #13 Ohio
State(12-0) #60 SOS, finishing higher in the Sagarin rankings than #19
USU(11-2) #97 SOS, #26 BYU(8-5) #64 SOS, and#61 Utah(5-7) #41 SOS?
clehmanWhat happened at Arizona is exactly the same thing that IS
happening at Utah. A sometimes WAC conference contender, reduced to
frequent PAC conference bottom dweller. After 35 years in the PAC, the Wildcats
have only had FIVE AP Top 25 finishes, the last in 1998, a decade and a half
ago.Unfortunately for U, the Utes aren't even as good as
Arizona. At least the Wildcats are competitive in other sports.
Uteology"Lets look at talent by the numbers:..."Who cares? None of those former Utah players now playing in the NFL can help U
anymore than BYU's greats of the past can help BYU.With all
that talent, the Utes still haven't beaten a single PAC 12 team with a
winning record. It obviously takes more than talent to win a football game.
@DHAgain, you miss the point completely.What has
happened at Arizona and what will happen at Utah are two completely separate
things. Utah is not Arizona. Similarities prove squat. Only time will tell how
good (or bad) the Utes will be in the conference.
GoRed,"And yet they still continue to beat BYU. What does that
say for your cougars?"And once again, thank you for reinforcing
my point that BYU is still Utah's measuring stick.
@cougars1"With all that talent it would appear that Utah has
really laid an egg."And yet they still continue to beat BYU.
What does that say for your cougars?
Personally I thought Utah would do a little better than they have done so far in
the Pac12, but I knew that things would be very different no matter what. As far
as being the new Arizona, I wish I could see into the future, but I can not. It
doesn't matter that much to me if they are a great team right now, I
can't see not liking Utah for struggling. I know coach Whitt has done
fantastic things and probably will again, it's just a game and it's
fun to watch. Go Utes!
Uteology,"Here’s a look at the talent by the numbers:NFL Talent:USC 53Oregon 39Stanford 32Utah
31Arizona 20Colorado 15BYU 13Washington State 11Recruiting Talent (PAC-12 rankings over 3 years):#1 USC#3
Washington#7 Utah#9 Arizona#12 Washington State Just for kicks let’s look at BYU: 2013: #63 ... equal to #12 P12
Colorado overall 692012: #60 ... equal to #12 P12 - Washington State
overall 502011: #66 ... equal to #12 P12 - Arizona overall 70So numbers seem to suggest BYU would be ranked near "Rock" bottom in
PAC-12 talent."Once again proving that BYU is your measure of
success. With all that talent it would appear that Utah has really laid an egg.
Uteology."Here's more verifiable evidence that was left out
in that statement. BYU was also ONE play from going 7-6:"The
Aggies (4-2) had a chance to tie the game with 7:47 left but Josh Thompson
pulled a 38-yard field goal attempt wide left. The Aggies also are six points
from being undefeated, having lost by two on the road to Wisconsin and now by
three to the Cougars."Yet BYU fans are here accusing Utah fans
of making "excuses and whining". How ironic."The irony
is that you are trying to make BYU fans apologize for a comment by the D-news. A
comment which was in fact true. You can come up with all the scenarios you want
to but the fact remains that BYU was only a few plays from a 12-1 season. Was
BYU one play from a 7-6 season? Absolutely. But that doesn't make the
comment by the D-news false.
@clehmanNor has utah ever been much of a football program. utah
"fans" act as if two years makes a program, it doesn't. utah's
other season's have been average or slightly above average the last decade
and they have little history of being anything outside of those 10 mostly ok
years.I'd really like to know why utah "fans" think
utah will ever be more than what arizona has been, a middle to bottom of the pac
program. I understand utah "fans" want them to be better than that, I
understand utah "fans" hope they are better than that, but what evidence
is there to think they actually will be? There really is none.Recruiting? Bottom half. Location? Bottom 2. Weather? Bottom 2. Budget? Dead
last. Past accomplishments? Dead last. There just isn't any real reason to
think otherwise.Once again I understand you hope they will be
better. I understand you want them to be better. But of course your hopes and
desires really don't mean anything, that is all they are. Actual rational
thought tells us they'll be far less than your hopes and desires.
Yawn, Utah still doesn't have the wins. Neither does BYU.Neither one has any room to brag and neither is making the State Of Utah look
good in the national picture. The Arizona of the PAC 12?? More like
the Wash St. And BYU is basically La Tech in their realm.
Here’s a look at the talent by the numbers:NFL Talent:USC 53Oregon 39Stanford 32Utah 31Arizona 20Colorado 15BYU 13Washington State 11Recruiting Talent
(PAC-12 rankings over 3 years):#1 USC#3 Washington#7 Utah#9 Arizona#12 Washington State Just for kicks let’s
look at BYU: 2013: #63 ... equal to #12 P12 Colorado overall 692012:
#60 ... equal to #12 P12 - Washington State overall 502011: #66 ... equal
to #12 P12 - Arizona overall 70So numbers seem to suggest BYU would
be ranked near "Rock" bottom in PAC-12 talent.
"Could Utah football be the new Arizona?"There's
certainly no evidence to suggest otherwise.
SportsFanOrem, UTUteologyThe outcomes of lots of
games are decided on a single play or two.You're the one who
claimed that following statement is false..."The Cougars are
coming off a great defensive year and a disappointing offensive year. It is hard
to believe with all of the disappointment that the team was four plays away from
a 12-1 season."Uteanymous proved that the statement is true with
specific, verifiable evidence.Nothing in your rebuttal proved
otherwise.Live with it!-------------Here's more verifiable evidence that was left out in that statement. BYU
was also ONE play from going 7-6:"The Aggies (4-2) had a chance
to tie the game with 7:47 left but Josh Thompson pulled a 38-yard field goal
attempt wide left. The Aggies also are six points from being undefeated, having
lost by two on the road to Wisconsin and now by three to the Cougars."Yet BYU fans are here accusing Utah fans of making "excuses and
whining". How ironic.
Anyone with any amount of objectivity in looking at Utah's football future
(and all sports for that matter) recognizes that the comparison with Arizona is
spot on. I supported Utah 100% in their BCS bowls because it made the MWC and
the state of Utah look good. It would be great if Utah could get to a Rose Bowl
in the foreseeable future but the likelihood of that happening is slim to none.
I can't come up with any scenario that would make me believe that Utah has
any chance of beating out the top teams in the PAC 12 any time soon. If someone
else out there has a logical and rational thesis on how Utah gets to the top of
the PAC 12, I'd love to hear it.
Lets look at talent by the numbers:NFL Talent:USC 53Oregon 39Stanford 32Utah 31
DuckhunterYou forgot... Utah will always be a notch above Arizona
because of the Trax and FrontRunner options. duh!
clehman"How the Arizona football program's lack of great
success projects anything about the U of U football program's future
success is something that hasn't been remotely proven by Mr. Rock."And, how Utah's MWC football success projects anything about
Utah's future PAC success is also something that hasn't been remotely
proven by of the hill dwellers.What we do know is a Utah program
that had dominated the Rocky Mountain and Skyline conferences (winning 20
championships in 51 seasons), virtually dropped of the map when they joined a
more competitive conference (only winning 2 conference championships in 37
seasons).gotta love how a simple question has sent Ute nation into a
near panic attack of denial.Utah is much more "like" Arizona
than the Utes are willing to admit. Unfortunately for U, that "likeness"
isn't the pretty picture Utah fans have been painting with their rosy
predictions of the Utes being an instant Rose Bowl contenders.
UteologyThe outcomes of lots of games are decided on a single play
or two.You're the one who claimed that following statement is
false..."The Cougars are coming off a great defensive year and a
disappointing offensive year. It is hard to believe with all of the
disappointment that the team was four plays away from a 12-1 season."Uteanymous proved that the statement is true with specific, verifiable
evidence.Nothing in your rebuttal proved otherwise.Live
@Duckhunter"why utah will be any more than arizona has been?
What advantages does utah have over arizona that should make us believe they
will more successful than arizona has been?"Because Arizona was
never more than a mediocre football program even before they entered the Pac 10.
Also, Arizona is not Utah. Who cares what took place at the U of A football
program since 1978? Seriously. For various reasons, they just
haven't gotten it done. A football season is not played in a vacuum...
meaning, that there are too many external factors to discuss over a 35 year
period to explain Arizona's mediocrity in football. Some schools just never
have good football teams.How the Arizona football program's
lack of great success projects anything about the U of U football program's
future success is something that hasn't been remotely proven by Mr. Rock. A
list of similarities doesn't prove anything. It's just
another article written by a smug journalist knowing that he'll get a
thousand BYU trolls crowing and cuckling. By October, that crowing will be
non-existent. If you want to mark Chris B.'s words on that, do so.
UteanymousSalt Lake City, UtahUteology"Speaking SPIN, why didn't you call this out:"The
Cougars are coming off a great defensive year and a disappointing offensive
year. It is hard to believe with all of the disappointment that the team was
four plays away from a 12-1 season."No need to call it out,
it's true.Without one bad snap, scoop and score, BYU beats Utah
21 to 17.---------Without a turnover by the punting team
on our own 14 late in the 4th... the MUSS has no need to storm the field: Utah
14 BYU 10Spin away, spin master.
To DuckhunterNo victim mode from me. Just a simple & accurate
observation.Don't believe me? Go back and research prior
stories from outlets that aren't KSL or the DN.
[From the article] "Will those additions put the Utes in the Rose Bowl?Right now they’d be happy to return to anyone’s
bowl."This empitimizes what the fans of the little school on the
hill are feeling the last 9 months. Big brother went bowling, and little
brother stayed home. Envy anyone?
2bOne game does not a season make. Most fans and poll voters are
smart enough to figure out that BYU's 7-turnover meltdown against Utah,
especially coming as it did so early in the season, was not a true indicator of
the relative strength/weakness of either team.As the season played
out, it became obvious to everybody not living under that crimson bubble on the
hill that BYU was MUCH better than their early September meltdown against Utah,
and, that Utah wasn't nearly as good as their September win might have
indicated.Following their BYU win, the Utes lost 3 of their next 4
games, in ugly fashion, suffered that humiliating home loss to one of the worst
teams in the country, and didn't beat another team with a winning record
until their bowl game, which the Utes barely won in overtime.
Are DuckHunter and Chris B. the same person? They sure sound like the same
person bagging on the Cougars or the Utes in the same fashion. Perhaps it is
time that DNews follows what many online papers do by requiring posters to be
connected to Facebook and identifiable. If I am not mistaken, teams
like Washington State, Arizona State, Oregon State, Cal and Arizona (Half the
original PAC12) have only played in the Rose Bowl one or two times apiece over
the last forty years. The measuring stick of a successful year going forward for
the Utes should be bowl eligibility, not winning the conference title. The Utes
missed a bowl last year, and with the schedules going forward for the next four
years are going to have a tremendous challenge getting six wins.
Uteology"Speaking SPIN, why didn't you call this out:"The Cougars are coming off a great defensive year and a
disappointing offensive year. It is hard to believe with all of the
disappointment that the team was four plays away from a 12-1 season."No need to call it out, it's true.Without one bad snap,
scoop and score, BYU beats Utah 21 to 17.With one made block and a
completed pass on the 2-point conversion, BYU beats BSU 8-7.With one
well-throw ball to a wide open Hoffman with nothing but green grass in front of
him, BYU beats Notre Dame 21-17.With one completed 6-yard pass on 2nd, 3rd
or 4th down midway through the 4th quarter, BYU beats San Jose State 21-20.BYU was literally 4 plays away from a 12-1 season and a legitimate shot
at a BCS game in 2012.Obviously, it didn't happen, but
it's also obvious, that it was very possible.----------Meanwhile, 5 of Utah's 7 losses were by double-digits, and U only
beat pathetic 11-loss Colorado by a touchdown.
@kitsutsuki...."many more knowledgeable fans have pointed out that AZ and
ASU have been members since the 70's - and how many Rose Bowl appearances
do they have between them?""For Utah fans to expect anything
else is laughable."How many Rose bowl or any BCS bowl
appearances for that matter does the Y have? Not sure what
you're trying to point out here? For the Y to expect anymore then the kraft
fight nobody cares bowl is laughable.
Utah should be so lucky to think they would be the next Arizona. Arizona at
least is in the middle of the PAC. Utah will continue in their new role as the
bottom feeders for many years to come. They may get a minor bowl invite every
so often in the event the happen to get 6 wins again.I love my
silent stalkerI guess it is time to remind the Utah faithful that
one game does not a season make. Utah's big win over BYU was negated by
Utah's ugly home loss to a 10-loss team that hadn't won a road game in
four years. Meanwhile, BYU finished with another 10-win season and
another Top 25 ranking. A down season for BYU was better than all but 7 seasons
in Utah history.Bottom line:#25/#26/#34 BYU(10-3) BETTER
THAN unranked/#39 Utah(8-5)U finished the season beating the #56
team in overtime. BYU finished the season beating the #35 team in regulation, a
team ranked HIGHER than Utah.--------WACpaddledBaby steps:Beat ranked teams. Not just one every so often.Remind us how many ranked team the Utes have beaten in the last four
years.-----------goredRock is simply saying
what many BYU fans have been saying for years, that it was far more likely that
the Utes would end up more like Arizona (30 years in the conference and still no
Rose Bowl), than like one of the big boys.
@ducky..."But please tell us, and try to do so rationally if possible, why
utah will be any more than arizona has been? What advantages does utah have over
arizona that should make us believe they will more successful than arizona has
been?"Please tell us why you care? As badly as the U dominates
the Y if the cat's are equal to the utes that would mean their far greater
than the Y. So I'm not sure why you care who's better out of Arizona
and the Utes?
@talkinsports..."LOL at the spin. U had a gift-wrapped PAC south there for
the taking and U were dominated at home in the first half by a 10-loss team that
hadn't won a road game in four years."LOL at the spin the Y
was dominated by a team that was dominated by 10 loss team in the first half 54
- 10 on their home field. Sad you have to ride the coat tails of a
10 loss team because your team couldnt come within 44 points on their home
A couple of comments from a dyed-in-the-wool Cougar: #1) Yes, most Cougar fans
would love to be invited to a major conference - but we haven't and
possibly never will be. So we did the next best thing, which few schools could
ever do, and went independent. It was the second best option and we jumped on
it, and #2) Utah has "owned" BYU over the past decade or so. No
argument from this Cougar fan.Neither of these facts have anything
to do with the topic at hand, however. My take on Utah is that they have bitten
off a huge chunk by joining the PAC 12 and it will take them years and years, if
ever, to be competitive on a regular basis. From the standpoint of geography
alone, most football players would rather play in the warm weather of AZ or on
the coast in CA, OR, or WA.Utah, you got what you asked for so stop
with the excuses, the "what-ifs", the whining, and the deflection of the
topic at hand to a BYU hate-fest. If you can't handle the heat then
don't read the articles.
Brad Rock: Could Utah football be the new Arizona?That caption is
Doesn't this article simply state the obvious? Ever since Utah was invited
to the PAC11+u and Utah fans have been shooting their mouths off, many more
knowledgeable fans have pointed out that AZ and ASU have been members since the
70's - and how many Rose Bowl appearances do they have between them?For Utah fans to expect anything else is laughable.
Uteology,I too think the sample size is too small to come to any
kind of a conclusion. Just as it is with BYU and Independence.However, this is a critical year for both programs. If they struggle, then you
will see a trend start that could spin out of control quickly. The newness of
the PAC will wear off quickly for recruits if the losing continues. Which is
exactly why Arizona has struggled.When the water starts swirling
down the drain, sometimes it is very hard to stop. I hope Utah and BYU can stop
it before it even starts. It will be harder for Utah though because of that SOS
that Utah fans like to point to so often.
Utes: What do you think the chances are of a guy like you and a girl like me...
ending up together?Rose Bowl: Well, Lloyd, that's difficult to say. I
mean, we don't really... Utes: Hit me with it! Just give it to me
straight! I came a long way just to see you, Pasadena. The least you can do is
level with me. What are my chances? Rose Bowl: Not good. Utes: You
mean, not good like one out of a hundred? Rose Bowl: I'd say more
like one out of a million. [pause] Utes: So you're telling me
there's a chance... *YEAH!*
@duckyInteresting how byu "fans" like yourself are quick to
jump onto any article that might disparage the Utes. But that is the intent of
Rock's argument, so I guess he succeeded.As for your comment
of "critical analysis of (the Utes') team and their prospects," it
is NOT a critical analysis. It is merely a slanted opinion, similar to yours.
For that matter, the article could compare byu with Army, a similar independent
team, and rail against them and their very slim chances of ever making it into a
BCS bowl, basing the argument that because Army hasn't been to a BCS bowl,
then neither will byu.Hopefully you see the fallacies in Rock's
and your argument.
Duckhunter"I like how a single article asking legitimate
questions sends utah "fans" into victim mode. LOL!"Yeah,
and we certainly never see you and your cougar brethren do this. Laughing
to CougFaninTXWhat Erickson will bring is simplification. The Utes
w/ substandard QB play were trying to run the WCO, spread option, & pro
style.The Utes O will have the Joe Gibbs Redskins personnel with the
capability for the zone read option i.e. Seahawks
to ThomasJeffersonIf you are a Husker fan why do you care? Taylor
Martinez < Scott Frost.A more apt comparison would be U to UNC
(not UAz) as BYU is to Duke. Hint... close proximity, snobby private school,
What does ESPN think about the current Utah program? Could Utah football be the
new Arizona? According to ESPN and not some BYU homer:If this were
a five-year projection, I think the Utes would be higher. But I also think they
need to go through at least a full class cycle before they can really start
climbing the Pac-12 hierarchy. Our preseason hype last season was
misguided, and the Utes' lack of depth was exposed. It takes time to build
not only a starting lineup that can win in the Pac-12, but also the depth behind
those starters. The facility upgrades are a good step in the right direction.
talkinsportschristy"Our FIRST year in the league we
were one field goal away from the PAC 12 tilt game with rose bowl on the
line."LOL at the spin.------------------Speaking SPIN, why didn't you call this out:"The Cougars
are coming off a great defensive year and a disappointing offensive year. It is
hard to believe with all of the disappointment that the team was four plays away
from a 12-1 season." -- Deseret NewsActually, BYU while
trailing the entire game was one missed field goal AND an overtime away from
CougFaninTX "will Erickson bring innovation"The bigger question
is "will Whittingham bring innovation"? The knock on Whitt is he is a
local coach who doesn't know a lot of coaches outside of Utah. For Utah to
compete in the long run they may have to replace Whittingham, which is a shame
because few programs show dedication to coaches anymore."I'm glad so many Ute commenters define a successful season as a win
against BYU".I've never seen a Ute fan make that comment. I
don't consider the BYU game an indication of success. It is fun to watch,
but nonconference has little bearing on Utah's season. As Utah improves in
recruiting, Utah should beat BYU more often than not.For BYU, the
Utah game is a gauge for "are we getting better?" They go to the same
bowl game if they're 6-6 or 11-1. Rankings mean nothing if you're not
in the top 10 at the end of the regular season. BYU plays different teams every
year, so you're left with the Utah game, and BYU hasn't beaten them
since going independent. That worries Cougar fans, because it shows they
aren't getting better.
Could Utah football be the new Arizona?Arizona was 5-7 and 6-5-1
with Fiesta Bowl (11-12-1 45%) in their first 2 seasons in PAC-10 and Utah 8-5
and 5-7 (13-12 52%) with Sun Bowl.According to Scots Utah’s
average class rank is #7 in the PAC-12, Arizona is #9. Overall class rankings
Utah was 39, 33, 54 and Arizona 70, 46, 27. And this with only 3 seasons of BCS
level recruiting compared to 35 years for Arizona.Arizona has 20
players in the NFL? So what? Oregon has 39 players and Utah has 31 players
mostly MWC talent. Conclusion, sample size is too small in order to
determine any correlation between Utah to Arizona.
@wally westI like how a single article asking legitimate questions
sends utah "fans" into victim mode. LOL!
re: GoRedAgreed. Though, the Utes have never been thought of highly
by the SLC sports media (notice I did not say journalists) which is full of byu
homers & jazz apologists.
@clehmanIf you mean an article asking legitimate questions then
sure. What a strange mindset utah "fans" have, never wanting to study
the issues, never wanting to face reality, never wanting to think about the
truth. You know it isn't all wine and roses, especially not the roses part.
I wonder if utah "fans" can handle what's to come emotionally if
an article that ask's legitimate questions is more than they can handle.
Congratulations, Brad. You served up an article tailor made for the BYU trolls.
@goredInteresting how utah "fans" like yourself to not like
reading critical analysis of their team and its prospects. Rock makes some
really good comparisons here and asks some legitimate questions. But
please tell us, and try to do so rationally if possible, why utah will be any
more than arizona has been? What advantages does utah have over arizona that
should make us believe they will more successful than arizona has been?
I'm pretty sure the reason for this article was to stir the pot a little
and ruffle some feathers and promote readers...you know, something a good
columnist like Brad Rock knows how to do. In the end, his assessment
is spot on...and even though I'm a Cougar fan, I really wish it wasn't
the case that Utah is similar to AZ, Wazzu, and Colorado. I would actually like
to see Utah rise to the top with the likes of USC, UCLA, Oregon, Stanford, etc.
but despite Chris Bs Alice in Wonderland view of things, how likely is it that
Utah becomes a premier program in the PAC? Utah will get very similar talent and
recruits to what AZ gets. They will get very similar coaching talent, with
similar revenue and facilities. A realistic ute fan knows all this,
and understands the trade-off of being in a power conference...the wins,
championships, and big bowl games will be much fewer and further between. Is
that a fair trade off for great games against great opponents, and a 20 mil
payday? Only ute fans can answer that question...Utah administrators already
have when they decided to join.
What kept Arizona out of the Rose Bowl several times was that they choked in
their final game against ASU; their longtime old WAC rival. This had nothing to
do with being in the PAC.Utah will be just fine and that will be
recognized starting this season. Not having a stable QB situation for four
years would derail any program. I don't see that happening again.
I think recruiting the same level of talent as all other PAC12 programs is more
than relative. Just because every program recruits the same kind of talent
doesn't mean the coaches can get the most out of the players they recruit.
Utah has shown they are able to maximize the skills of the players they are able
to recruit. Just look at Texas and the top 5 classes they bring in every year,
but they continually have disappointing seasons.
talkinsportsGilbert, AZWACPaddledTwo years "in",
and you're not even capable of beating the only WAC team on your schedule
to qualify for a bowl.Baby steps:Before beating your
chest about "potential" Rose Bowl berths, or even winning the PAC south,
U might want to start by beating your first PAC foe with a winning record.______talkinwithoutfacts, please show me where I said
anything about a Rose Bowl berth.Baby steps:Beat ranked
teams. Not just one every so often. BYU might want to start by giving a better
impression on ESPN. Otherwise they will become more of a TV slot filler than
they are now.
Anybody want to add to the flaming pyre of Ute sports by talking Utey
basketball... at least Arizona can carry a conversation on the court.
I guess it is time to remind the BYU faithful that the same year Utah lost to
Colorado they also curb kicked BYU 54-10 at BYU. The Utes have owned BYU and
still do, the green eyed jealousy of BYU fans is showing again in their attacks
upon the Utes. Everyone knows that BYU was not wanted by the PAC for various
reasons and they are still smarting from the snub. It now seems that no other
conference wants anything to do with them also.
"Could Utah football be the new Arizona?"Um, yeah, it will.
It already is. And many of us correctly predicted this back in 2010.And I love the revisionist history here, trying to portray Arizona as a patsy
in football. In reality, Arizona and Arizona State dominated the WAC in the
mid-1970s, finishing 1-2 in the conference three times. Which is why they got
invited to the big party in the first place.(Speaking of Arizona
State, they have only been to two Rose Bowls during their history. That's
two Rose Bowls out of 70 total years in the PAC-10 between the two schools.)Oh, and for the statement "Utah will never be that bad", Utah
ALREADY has been that bad. During the '70s and '80s they usually
finished in the bottom half of the conference -- right where they are now. The
past decade of Utah football has been an anomaly compared to the previous 40
years; now that Utah doesn't have a steady diet of UNLVs and Wyomings to
pad their schedule, they have returned to their accustomed position in the
Utah is my 3rd favorite school behind BYU and USU.However, I think
this article is spot on. Hopefully a few of the commenters will quit looking at
their team through Rose colored glasses. Utah has a tough schedule
and will struggle to be bowl eligible. I think the biggest question is, will
Erickson bring innovation, and progress to the offensive side of the ball like
he did at Washington State and Oregon State. Or are his last few years at
Arizona State a sign of things to come? Every coach in the PAC knows his
system, so the offense will not surprise anyone.I'm glad so
many Ute commenters define a successful season as a win against BYU, but the
season is 12 games long, not one. Hopefully U can get it turned around a get
back to your winning ways. And hopefully BYU can get back to beating Utah.
“Going to the Pac-12, we knew it was going to be a transition and a
process, and a work in progress, I guess you could say,” Whittingham
recently said."But that's not what Ute fans were saying 2
and 3 years ago!It's interesting to see and hear how the
message has been morphing into excuses since last season. LOL
Let's talk about the Sun Bowl, and the Sugar Bowl; shall we?
Hmmm, slow sports day. Let's write an article questioning the Utes'
ability to compete in the challenging PAC 12 in order to please the BYU-friendly
Deseret News readers. Let's create controversy any way we can, right?
Especially if it's at Utah's expense.Lame, Rock.
@big brother byu. Byu playing for national championships? What makes byu fans
WACPaddledTwo years "in", and you're not even capable
of beating the only WAC team on your schedule to qualify for a bowl.Baby steps:Before beating your chest about "potential"
Rose Bowl berths, or even winning the PAC south, U might want to start by
beating your first PAC foe with a winning record.
christy"Our FIRST year in the league we were one field goal away
from the PAC 12 tilt game with rose bowl on the line."LOL at the
spin. U had a gift-wrapped PAC south there for the taking and U were dominated
at home in the first half by a 10-loss team that hadn't won a road game in
Good luck to the U - their success is critical for the reputation of the other
schools in UT and the Rockies in general.
Hahaha, this is great. While we're playing for national championships, U
will be, uh, not playing for the Rose Bowl. BYU is true.
Utah will not be Arizona.Arizona was as awful football school when I
lived in Tucson just over a decade ago. They only fielded a football team
because that was expected. They had two or three years in a row not winning a
single conference game. Utah will never be that bad.Utah should
make it to a bowl every couple of years even at the worst of times because they
play in the easier of the two divisions. They are typically better than Cal,
Colorado, Washington State and can beat the middle of the pack teams as well
depending on when the games land on the schedule. It will all really depend on
what kind of teams they play out of conference. If they play teams like Utah
State and BYU, Utah even if they win those games is not likely to come out of
the game healthy enough to play in conference. That is what happened last year.
Utah beat BYU and had practically nothing left in the tank for conference play.
They lost a few games where had they not played BYU, would have won.
The race is on!What will occur first?Utah in a Rose
Bowl, or our national debt being paid off?
Two years in and Cougar fans say its a failure and look for comparisons. Hey its
not working for AZ football.Well Brad start writing the next
article: Could BYU football be the new Idaho? After all, they are both in the
same conference of independents.ThomasJefferson, your comment about
Maryland is interesting. Many schools would like to be them, especially after
being invited to join the Big 10. I think several BYU fans would jump all over
an invite like that.
And six years after joining the PAC 10 Arizona was nominated to and joined the
prestigious academic group AAU which was really their goal when they left the
WAC since they had no football history in the WAC to speak of. Utah will
achieve both goals in the PAC 12, membership in AAU and a Rose Bowl game
appearance in six years. Mark it down.
Thomas Jefferson,How does it feel knowing the Maryland of the PAC 12
seniors are about to complete the career 4-0 sweep over your team?Van noy and Hoffman are supposed to be stars, and yet they will be 0-4 against
"Maryland"Never beat them!Lol!As
"bad" as we are, you lost 54-10 to that bad team!
To all who mock Utah: you only wish the PAC 12 or another bcs league wanted
you,But they don't!
No. Whittingham knows how to have undefeated top 5 seasonsSo does Erickson We will be in a rose bowl within 5-10 years max
Our FIRST year in the league we were one field goal away from the
PAC 12 tilt game with rose bowl on the line. Only 5 years ago we
were a top 5 team Recruiting has improved the past several years Which is why we are handling byu easily but still struggling against PAC
12 teams who also have great recruiting I am not worried in the
least. I think this year we will be in the title hunt within the
last game or two of the season Mark that down! I will remind you all
I was r