dr.snow: Mr Card, in his many writings about Ender's game, and i think even
in later revisions of his book, credits Ursala LeGuin for the idea of an
ansible. You may object to the message, which I think is a valid
difference of opinion, but to accuse him of underhanded stealing is ignorant at
best. He's always been forthright about the idea, in fact he
says he named it the same thing as she does because he wanted to pay tribute to
moderator - you are joking right?Given the vitriolic nature of posts
that you routinely allow to be posted here...my comments simply tried to make a
point. There was no personal attack. Perhaps you should just post a series of
comments you want to have posted so we can just choose one? I'm
@coltakashi --"the identifiably gay characters in Card's
stories have been drawn as good people"I guess you haven't
read "Hamlet's Father", then (I have). In that story (written in
2008), Hamlet's father is a pedophile who molests Hamlet's male
friends when they're children, resulting in them "turning" gay or
becoming impotent.His other gay characters have uniformly either
renounced their homosexuality (the Homecoming Saga and IIRC some of the later
sequels to Ender's Game), or have been destroyed in some way by their
homosexuality (Hamlet's Father and Songmaster -- the 15 year old character
in Songmaster could never have sex again, and was groomed to be homosexual by
evil pederasts).So far as I know, he hasn't written a single
gay character who is happy, stable, and comfortable with his sexuality.
It's the old stereotype of the tragic/doomed homosexual, over and over
I concur with jem53's observation that the identifiably gay characters in
Card's stories have been drawn as good people, even exemplary in many ways.
In his personal essays, he has noted that, being a theater major at BYU, and in
the world of science fiction and fantasy publishing since then, he has
associated with people who self-identified as homosexual his entire adult life.
I can't recall him "outing" someone who was secretly gay (unlike
some gay people who want to punish other gays who are not active enough in their
advocacy of gay rights), nor has he sought to injure a gay person in their
careers. Card's fiction has offered the world heroes of every
race and religion in his stories. The message of the Ender's Game novels is
the need to respect those unlike ourselves and honor their value, even including
those who are literally alien. He proposes that we can have integrity in our own
beliefs while having tolerance for those who disagree.
@Tekakaromatagi --"kindly provide an example..."Here's a few very brief excerpts, ranging over the past 20 years:1. "Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition, and any
government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy
that government and bring it down..."-- He didn't say "vote
the bums out of office" or "we'll get em at the next election"
-- He said "DESTROY" that government "AND BRING IT DOWN" -- and
earlier in that passage he also said "BY WHATEVER MEANS is made possible or
necessary".-- That's insurrection, folks.2. Married
gay people: "They steal from me what I treasure most".-- Really??
Are married gay people somehow forcing him to get divorced??3. Gay
people in church: "They are wolves in sheep's clothing, preaching
meekness while attempting to devour the flock."-- Fear-mongering,
much?4. Gay people in general: "those who flagrantly violate
society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as
acceptable, equal citizens within that society."-- Yup, second class
citizenship for gays...You said: "a major cause of poverty are
out of wedlock births."What's your point?? Gay marriage is
about people WANTING to commit to each other.
Contrarius: I've read the same editorials and opinions published by OSC as
you have.You're conflating the "insurrections against the
Government" charge to fit your argument. This use of sophistry simply
doesn't fly, when weighing his response to actual events. Sure,
OSC is passionate about all sorts of things, including culture, restaurants and
movies.Have you read his published opinion about Church Basketball?
He posits that it ruins the young men's program in the LDS church?
It's scathing. I gave it to an LDS friend, thinking it was powerful and
even funny, because OSC's essay was so completely uncompromising--and in
many respects--right on the money--and my friend surprised me at how angry after
reading it.A good writer evokes passion.In the era in
which he wrote those comments, revolution was a legitimate concern, because
people didn't know how it would even be feasible. Now that the debate is
over, has he advocated that? Of course not, because it was rhetoric,
it was a fear of the most extreme response that never actually happened--end of
story.All scifi writers guess at what might be... in this, he
@Contrarius:"I HAVE read OSC extensively. I have **also**, however,
read many of his virulently anti-gay editorial rants, AND I have heard him speak
against gays in person as well (in Utah, as it happens)."Could
you kindly provide an example of one of his "virulently anti-gay editorial
rants" so that we can make up our minds for ourselves.Traditional marriage is a powerful tool for fighting poverty because a major
cause of poverty are out of wedlock births. For 50 years we have had a war on
poverty and it is has failed. OSC and the National Organization for Marriage
advocating strengthening marriage rather than redefining it. Good for them. I
would expect a writer of science fiction to question and to run counter to the
official political dogma. Good for OSC.
Orson S. Card and all associated with Ender's Game would hereby
enthusiastically thank the LGwhatevers for organizing this boycott to bring
millions of $$$ of free publicity to tis movie. Like most silly boycotts, they
backfire and bring out far more people to a product or event than would have
ever known of it. I don't care how you spell my name, just so you say it
and say it and say it.
How many more people will lose their livelihood because they believe there is
something special about the marriage of a man and a woman?
Card is going to have a naturally sympathetic audience among the Mormon
community. And they are perfectly within their rights to ridicule the LGBT
community for their contempt for Card's anti-gay comments. Remember one
thing: Card is a prominent member of the National Organization for Marriage
which the Southern Poverty Law Center has listed as one of this country's
major hate groups. I have never liked Ender's Game, but for literary (and
philosophical) reasons. I have never believed that six year-olds can speak with
the wisdom of 50 year-olds. I also believe that Card stole the ansible from
Ursula K. Le Guin (it's called intellectual property theft). The novel,
though, turns so-called innocent children into killers. Card cleverly blames
society, but it left me with a bad taste. So that's what it comes to:
taste. You either like his work or you don't. Most in SLC do. I don't
like him personally (I went to school with him), and I don't like his
writing. Just sayin'.
It goes both ways. I know a woman who boycotted The Broadway theater because
they showed Brokeback Mountain. She will never see a movie there again.Let's not pretend that there are no consequences for fighting civil
I think that it is funny how the pro gay community seems to forget that the gay
community was not exactly acting like angels during this whole Prop 8 thing.I boycott a certain man who said something that I found truly offensive
but I DON"T put it through the ringer like a lot of these people do.If you don't want to see the movie - then don't! Just do it
attention Tim BehendYou don't know much about LDS church history do
you?Maybe you should learn more about it before making statements such as
the one you did.
@Coach Biff --"I see. OSC needs to apologize at the foot of some
LBGT priest in order to be absolved of his sin of having an opinion. "He didn't just have an opinion, Biff -- he actually advocated
insurrection against the United States government, and he spent years actively
trying to deny equal rights to US citizens.If a devoted white
supremacist made a public statement saying "I still believe in white
supremacy, but the laws are already against me so you anti-racists
shouldn't attack us any more", would that actually mean anything?
I see. OSC needs to apologize at the foot of some LBGT priest in order to be
absolved of his sin of having an opinion. The absurdity of the LGBT community
knows no bounds, apparently.
@coltakashi --"The people behind the boycott are demonstrating
the sheer intolerance of some people in the "gay" community, who cannot
stand that anyone disagrees with them."The National Organization
for Marriage is currently officially sponsoring TWO boycotts against companies
with pro-gay policies. Will you now accuse them of self-righteousness and
intolerance as well?I didn't think so.@raybies
--"OSC issued a statement stating that since the supreme court
has decided this issue, he considers further debate on the topic to be moot, and
he resigned his position with the National Marriage group that originally got
some homopoliticos up-in-arms. "So what? Since when does he get
to dictate the terms of the discussion?Card has made a step in the
right direction. But that doesn't absolve him of all his past words and
Hollywood is having a catastrophic summer. The standard fare that film makers
have relied upon is going down the drain in the mega budget movies. I am going
to enjoy Enders Game. I will also take delight that the better movies of the
year will have LDS writers.
re: TimBehrendOh yeah, that's right because the Mormons'
boycotting the highly offensive to Mormons Broadway Musical "The Book of
Mormon" was such a big event. Only....they didn't. Instead they paid
significant $$$ to advertise in the play program with their "You've
seen the movie, now read the book" ad!!!
I completely agree with the idea that a boycott is a useful weapon in the war of
ideas that is our democracy. I personally boycott things that are made by
people whose agendas I disagree with. For example, I refuse to buy things made
by the creative team responsible for "Hairspray" because of what they
did to a friend of mine who supported Prop 8. If GeeksOUT ever produced
anything, I would boycott it.I know it might seem facetious, but I
am completely serious: I support the use of boycotts.For a number
of reasons (personal, political, and artistic), I hope the boycott of
"Ender's Game" fails, but I applaud the use of boycotts for
political reasons. I intend to continue to boycott people and products I
I get a kick out of the LGBT community response to anything they deem as
offensive. They make it very hard to be sympathetic to their cause.
It amazes me that this group wants to boycott Card's work because he's
a member of NOM. Defense of traditional marriage is homophobic and bigoted? I
To our friend JSB -- Wagner died six years before the monster Hitler was born.
But your point is well taken. I find Barbra Streisands politics absurd but she
sings great (although I do draw a line at listening to this patently
anti-Christian singing "O Holy Night", but I'm not silly enough to
boycott -- I just don't chose to listen to the supersillious
juxtapostion).But on Card, the heterophobes are certainly out in
full force. Once again hysterically but illogically making their lack of
case.Harrison Ford's opinions were certainly accurate.
Great art and morality go together. Sin is playing only one key on the piano:
boring and dull. Play all 88 keys and life is better. Hollywood is boring
It is sad that boycotters don't get a taste of their own medicine. Using
their logic,it is unlikely that I could go to the movies again. If I don't
see a movie because I dislike the personal views of one of its key actors,
writers, or directors, that pretty much excludes me from all movies. However, I
am tolerant enough and smart enough to restrict my movie critiques to the
content of the movie and not to the views of the cast. Boycotters should take a
reality check on what they expect from society. When they are intolerant of
other points of view, why should they expect tolerance for their own views?
While the rights of a minority may need to be protected, so do the rights of a
majority. Point to note: This movie, no doubt, has many actors and staff who
sympathize with gay rights. Those people are being damaged as well. So it sounds
like a case of "cutting off your nose to spite your face." Damaging one
person is causing damage to hundreds of other people.
@jem53 --"Any one that has read Orson Scott Card extensively
knows that he is anything but homophobic."Baloney.I
HAVE read OSC extensively. I have **also**, however, read many of his virulently
anti-gay editorial rants, AND I have heard him speak against gays in person as
well (in Utah, as it happens).Remember -- OSC has actually advocated
**insurrection against the Federal government** if gay marriage becomes legal.
IMHO, the "Geeks Out" boycott has done a good thing, because
it forced more people to publicly confront the issue of homophobia. OTOH, it's also obvious that the majority of people who will profit from
the movie are NOT homophobic, and in fact are generally firm supporters of gay
rights. In fact, Lionsgate is an exemplary supporter of gay rights itself, and
will be hosting a benefit in support of gay causes.So by all means,
go see the movie. Support Lionsgate and all the other people involved in the
movie, almost all of whom are enthusiastic supporters of gay rights. Sure,
there's some sting to supporting Card -- but he is only one man, while
Lionsgate and the rest of the industry represents thousands who disagree with
I wonder how many LDS would choose silence if it were Mormons who were the
objects of naked castigation by politicians and religious leaders? Who were
widely denied rights available to every other group? About whom misinformation
and hatred were regularly disseminated? The fact that you personally dislike the
notion of normalised homosexuality shouldn't affect your support of
fundamental principles of fairness and equality.
I will not go see the movie because I have known Card's personal disgust of
gays for years. I will not spend time advocating others do the same. I just
don't care to read his books or now see movies from which he profits. The
word is now out on him to a greater degree and I think that is a good thing.
Fwiw, OSC issued a statement stating that since the supreme court has decided
this issue, he considers further debate on the topic to be moot, and he resigned
his position with the National Marriage group that originally got some
homopoliticos up-in-arms. It's clear the only group that
doesn't want this issue to be resolved in a positive way is anyone still
calling for a boycott.
Any one that has read Orson Scott Card extensively knows that he is anything but
homophobic. Several of his books have gay characters that he treats
sympathetically. In fact, I have been surprised at how openly gay some of his
characters have been given his stance on gay marriage. He obvisouly
doesn't hold any animus for gay people, but is simply opposed to legalizing
gay marriage. The movie, Ender's Game, should be allowed to be judged on
it's own merits, not on the personal beliefs of it's author.
The story of Ender's Game was originally published in a magazine in 1977.
It has nothing to do with sex of any kind, let alone homosexuals or same sex
marriage. The people behind the boycott are demonstrating the sheer intolerance
of some people in the "gay" community, who cannot stand that anyone
disagrees with them. They share an attitude of self-righteousness justifying
harm to others that has, in other societies, been cloaked with the term
"jihad". And in states where same sex marriage has become law, they are
using it as a weapon against dissenters.
Boycotts are a complete waste of time and rarely effective. If some LGBT
activists want to organize a boycott of Enders Game good luck. I suspect most
of them will say they are boycotting the movie and then sneak off to see it when
their friends aren't looking.This whole thing is a tempest in a
teapot which the media is trying to inflate into something bigger than it is.
Basically they are saying we don't have to be tolerant of you, you only
have to be tolerant of us.Same old, same old from that group.I can't wait to see this movie. One of my all time favorite books.
It will be a big hit and this boycott will be a complete failure.
I have been waiting for this movie since reading the book 20 years ago. Card
could publish an article entitled "'Floyd Johnson' is a Cod
Fish" and I would still be the first guy in line.
Richard Wagner was a Nazi sympathizer but he also wrote beautiful music. Should
I avoid listening to Wagner because some of his personal beliefs are repugnant
to me? I suspect that those who are protesting "Ender's Game" think
of themselves as being broad-minded liberals. But if someone refuses to watch a
film, go to the opera, read a book, listen to good music, etc. because someone
involved in the work of art has an opinion different from their's they are
really displaying their narrow minded bigotry.
I used to live a very different life. I didn't obey, but I was rebellious
in most things. I knew the church was true, but I just wasn't living the
way I should and I wasn't sure how I felt about the doctrines regarding
Family within the LDS Church. I ignored all this and kept living the life I
lived.Eventually it catches up with you. All of us have to make a
choice. We all learn at some point whether the choices we're making make us
truly happy or not.I made my choice. I'm happy. I'm not
perfect. We all make mistakes so I don't have any expectations of
perfection from anyone. All I can do is hope for others. I hope others can see
the happiness that others are finding through returning to the gospel and
keeping the commandments. It isn't an easy decision. For me it took many
years to get my life back in order. I wish I had earlier but the time is
lost.See the movie or not, but a boycott doesn't make you any
more right or any more happy. The gospel will.
@ md: Really? I don't see your free speech being infringed upon. (Oh,
and in case you think it is - "free speech" means the government
won't censor it or throw you in jail - it doesn't mean other people
won't use their free speech to express disagreement with you.)And, FYI, as Henry Drummond points out, those who oppose gay marriage have
engaged in boycotts, too. As a matter of fact, those who oppose gay
marriage and rights for same-sex couples still have the upper hand. Don't
believe me? Try to adopt or foster in Utah as a same-sex couple - see how far
Ugh. Free speech is excellent, as long as you don't disagree with the gay
Dustin Black said it perfectly. This is the wrong fight against the wrong
Industry. Ten years ago, before it became more fashionable to support Gay
Rights, Disney Corporation faced down the Southern Baptist Convention and the
American Family Association who initiated a boycott of their films because they
were offering Domestic Partner Benefits to their employees. At the end of the
day, is a boycott against Ender's Game any different?I'm
happy to oppose Orson Scott Card's ideas in the political sphere, but I see
no reason to do it at the Movie Theater when the Film has absolutely nothing to
do with his political views.