Nice deflection, Howard S. Your post, once again, has not addressed any of the
claims that I have made. This thread is about the BYU defense, which has been
stellar... no amount of deflection or spin will change that fact.
@WiscougarfanOk... Here is the deal...I know Cougar fans
love to justify their relevance based on comparative stats...But
comparing BYU stats with Texas, or Oregon, or Alabama is irrelevant...Think about it... Do you think BYU would compare as well if they played an SEC
schedule on a regular basis... or a Big12 schedule... or a regular PAC12
schedule?An objective person would have to say no... BYU would not
compare as well if they played a full BCS schedule...What matters is
wins... and it is well documented that BYU has a losing record against the BCS
teams it plays.And that is because to they lack sufficient first
team talent and depth of talent (defensive and offensive).... characteristic of
RE: Howard S. No, you misread. We were having a discussion about
BYU's DEFENSE. What are your thoughts about any of the claims I actually
made in my posts?
@WiscougarfanThoughts?Giving up a 15-2 turnover margin
against good teams is indicative of a lack of quality talent and depth on
offense...Which is also characteristic of mid-major teams...
Howard S., are we actually having a civil debate? Nice. While I
agree that BYU has struggled against decent to great teams, I can't agree
that it is because of their lack of depth on defense. In 2012 BYU lost to Utah
24-21, #24 Boise St 7-6, #10 Oregon St. 42-24 (it was closer than final score
indicates), #5 Notre Dame 17-14, and San Jose St. 20-14. In those five games
the cougar defense held opponents to an average of 342 yards per game (219
passing 123 rushing). That would have dropped their defensive ranking from #3
to #16 in the country for opponents total yards, #41 for passing yards, and #17
for rushing yards. The real story was the 15-2 turnover edge, but that is the
offense's fault.Now an argument can be made that San Jose and
Utah aren't "big boys" but take them out of the equation and the
statistics are still similar. Take Oregon State out and BYU was hands down the
best defense in the country. There is no way that BYU's struggles against
good teams can be attributed to their lack of depth on defense. Thoughts?
@WiscougarfanOf course BYU has had a good defense in recent years...
but they've been playing mostly other mid-major teams that also lack
quality depth.Against the big boys who have quality depth... BYU has
a losing record... that is simply the fact.
Also, because you failed to show any actual research let me provide what I found
(as an actual fan I like to do research on my team)...Holt (backup
LE) was a 4-star prospect with offers to Florida, Oregon, and several other top
programs. True he was recruited as a tight end but word is that he has
transitioned seamlessly to DE. Marques Johnson (backup NT) was not
as highly recruited as Holt but did have offers to two BCS schools. Taele (backup RE) is just a walk-on, but he beat out Peoples, who is an
under-the-radar prospect that the Utes wanted (and almost got). Not
a lot of experience among the backups but the talent is there. Like I mentioned
in my earlier post, we’ve done o.k. with backups stepping up in recent
years (i.e. Ansah).
Howard S.You're right that the cougars are thin at DL, and
you're right that mid-major programs often have a lack of depth. But you
(of course keeping to the law of the troll) stop short. What you don't
acknowledge is that many BCS programs also have depth issues at certain
positions. Also, BYU has had exceptional defenses in recent years despite their
lack of depth. Feel free to attempt to refute either of those two points.
@Riverton CougarRC, you haven't read my posts very
carefully...I never made comparison between BYU and Utah
d-lines...I simply pointed out that with only 2 established
d-linemen BYU is thin at that position...That is simply
factual...I also noted that a characteristic of mid-major teams is
that they often have pretty good talent on the 1st team... but they lack quality
depth of talent... that appears to be the case with BYU's d-line.No comparison with Utah only observations about BYU...You and your
fellow Cougar commenters almost instinctively respond to any less than glowing
observation about BYU by questioning the credibility of the messenger and/or
drawing comparisons with the Utes.How about telling me how the
Cougars aren't thin at the d-line position... and how it's not a
characteristic of mid-major teams to have limited depth of talent?
True that we lost some great players (three of which are on NFL rosters), but I
don’t believe the third best defense in the country in 2012 got there by
“being thin” as Howard S. suggests, and on paper 2013 is better than
2012. The defensive unit has at least four players that were ranked top 20 in
their positions out of HS (Holt #5, Kaufusi #19, Bills #15, KVN #11) and there
are more 4-star recruits on the two deep than 2-star. We have a youngish line
but the talent is certainly there. Remember that one of our thinner positions
last season was defensive end, and fans (and critics) were quite concerned when
our starter went down in the fourth game of the season. Fortunately the back-up
was able to step up. I don't think our back-ups will become top 5 nfl
picks this season, but they should be o.k.
"I observe that the Cougars are thin at the D-line position with no depth
and that this is characteristic of mid- major teams...The Cougar
commenters immediately begin to challenge the Utes... and my
credibility..."You reap what you sow, Howard. You refer to BYU
as a "mid-major" and refer to Utah as a "power school", making a
comparison. Then you say that BYU has a thin D-line. Well, guess what?
BYU's D was ranked in the top 3 in the nation last year, well above your
beloved Utes. We all know that BYU's D wasn't ranked so high because
of the secondary, so logically it follows that the D-line isn't as thin as
you suggest.Besides, IF it is true that thin D-lines are a
characteristic of mid-major teams, and if BYU is a mid-major team with a thin
D-line, then since Utah's D was worse than BYU's D this last year,
logically Utah must have a thinner D-line than BYU (otherwise it would be
better), and therefore fits the characteristic of a mid-major team more than BYU
@Cougar NationI observe that the Cougars are thin at the D-line
position with no depth and that this is characteristic of mid- major teams...The Cougar commenters immediately begin to challenge the Utes... and my
credibility...That response must be because they can't really
dispute the veracity of my initial observation.
With all due respect Howard S. (and seriously there is no respect due to you)
for you to be referring to BYU as a mid major in the arrogant way that and your
buddies frequently do is rather comical. Why do you guys (ute fans
with an axe to grind) like to shame yourselves so much by bleating about BYU
being a mid major when the full irony is that the utes are a mid major adopted
into a BCS conference; but has shown little-to-nothing that it belongs? Yes, you will say "but we beat BYU the last three years". That
may be true. But as soon as the BYU game is over the wheels come flying off the
utemobile. And BYU tends to recover.And it isn't all SOS.
"Talking about the Utes again?Why do Cougars always want to talk
about the Utes when the article doesn't even mention the Utes once?"Says the Ute fan on the comment board of an article that doesn't
even mention the Utes once.
Howie said,"Talking about the Utes again?Why do
Cougars always want to talk about the Utes when the article doesn't even
mention the Utes once?"Because Howie, coming from an extremely
weak position, which you need to be reminded of constantly, gives zero
credibility to your comments.Tell you what, why don't you leave
the BYU articles alone with your negative/critical comments and I won't
have to point out that you are a Ute troll.Try this, comment
positively on BYU football and I will congratulate you, but until then....
Howard S."Why do Cougars always want to talk about the Utes when
the article doesn't even mention the Utes once?"What?!
Isn't this your entire M.O.?
@MacNastyTalking about the Utes again?Why do Cougars
always want to talk about the Utes when the article doesn't even mention
the Utes once?
Howie said"I didn't realize BYU was so thin at the DL
position...but that's the nature of mid-major teams...they may have pretty decent 1st string players... but no depth"Howie, your knowledge of with mid-major football is infinitely more than ours
since your PAC-thetic Utes, except for 2 seasons, have been the quintessential
mid-major.37 years in the WAC and only 2 championships. Face it
Howie, Utah was chosen by the PAC 12 as a place holder and nothing more. LOL
I didn't realize BYU was so thin at the DL position... but
that's the nature of mid-major teams... they may have pretty
decent 1st string players... but no depth.
Striker - unfortunately, I'm afraid you are correct about special teams. If
Sorensen can get back to the level he played at as a freshman, I will be happy -
and hope we can get a good punter. I'm less worried about kick returns,
This defense will still be just as good. I don't think they'll be #3,
but will probably remain in the top 15. Jordan Johnson, Eathyn, and Van Noy are
just some of the studs on the defense. They have solid leadership led by a
defensive minded coach. The offense will be spectacular with their coach who
has put 20 WRs in the NFL, Anae and his top 25 offense, and other staff. Personally, the only weakness I see on this team is special teams.
The headline is overly optimistic. With questions over who will man the third
spot, a more appropriate headline would have been, "Defensive Line Anchored
by Manumaleuna and Kafusi Has Potential to Be Strong."
Well, we obviously don't know for sure how the season will play out - given
that it is still July. However, I feel the pessimists are whistling in the dark
a little. The talent is there as much as last year - it's just different.
Keep in mind that Ziggy didn't start until a few games had passed and that
he never was able to play a full game - he had to come out frequently to catch
his breath. Even without the J.C. transfers, the two-deep looks as good as ever.
Besides, all this defense demands of the line is to fill the gaps so
that the linebackers can make plays. I really don't see a huge drop-off in
the linebackers for this year.
@kaysvillecougarThey've been using the 2-5-4 for a while now (or at
least a 2-4-5 nickel). I dont know what coverages they use out of it, but
they'll have KVN and another olb (sometimes Ziggy last year) line up
basically as 4-3 DEs. This is also a great way to get Alani Fua on the field
more@byufanmanTrent Trammell was the best jc transfer but he
blew out his knee in spring practice. Sam Lee is another that might take his
spot at corner. I dont remember any others--Most of the jc guys were o-lineman.
But while we're on the subject, BYU has a shot at Nick Kurtz, a 4-star jc
WR for next year..
BYU still won't beat Boise State.
"Queue up the 12 angry, obsessed with BYU ute "fans" in 3, 2,
I agree with other fans who think this article is too optimistic. I think that
the D-line is going to be thin this year even if everyone stays healthy, which
is very unlikely. I think where this will be most apparent is in defending the
run. Look for the D-line to get worn down in the 2nd half against teams with
dominant O-lines. Losing Ogletree and Kaveinga who were both very good at
stuffing the run will also hurt. Hope I am wrong though.
It's hard to lose the 5th overall pick in the NFL draft and say that the
position will be improved but it would appear BYU will be just fine, if not
extremely good still, on the defensive line. With Manumaleuna and Kaufusi at 2
of the spots that is pretty good and some of the other guys are really good
prospects. I thought Peck and Kanuch were both excellent in HS when I saw them
play. I bet dline turns out to be a strength on defense.
Can anyone update me on our JC transfers on the d-side of the ball?
Ethyn coming back will be huge for the BYU D line. Along with Bronson Kafusi
and Jaronhym People coming in, this 3013 D line is going to be great! Remember when J. People's got a scholarship offer from Utah, after
already committing to BYU? Although he wavered for a day, he ended up turning
down Utah for BYU. Go Cougs!
Claws - I don't see the lack of depth with Eathyn, Kaufusi, Peck, Johnson,
Kanuch and Holt. Even though it could be a slight drop in talent with a couple
of these guys, they will provide all the relief necessary for Eathyn and
Kaufusi. I have no worries at all in the D front seven.
The D-line showed some vulnerability against Oregon State and Notre Dame last
year. I am hoping that Bronco has a fix for that. Realistically, I think our
defense will be OK this year, but not as good as last year. I think the
D-backfield will be a huge question mark.I think the offense will be
considerably better than last year mostly due to a big upgrade at QB.
I agree with Felis and Cougarclaws. Way to optimistic and I'm a big cougar
fan. No way will the D - line be as good as last year. The coaches are obviously
concerned enough to entertain a 2 - 5 - 4 defense. Part of the reason for that
is because we're so deep at linebacker. Hope I'm wrong, but the
dreams of a #3 defense are optimistic. My guess is top 10 - 20. That would be
fantastic considering the schedule and presuming an improved offense.
Great article! Queue up the 12 angry, obsessed with BYU ute "fans" in
3, 2, 1...
It's also important to remember that BYU likes to morph into a 2-5-4 quite
often in the base 3-4, which will give our DL some needed rest. This defense is,
and it seems will always be, anchored by great LB play, and this year is no
The defensive line will be okay, but I worry about BYU wearing down against the
run late in games because of the lack of depth. That could prove costly if a
team is trying to ice away a close game late. The talent is there, though so
hopefully the bench guys are ready by the time the season starts.
Nice article, but it's way too optimistic.BYU's defensive
line will be better than most think, but it's not going to be as good as
last year's. One big loss no one seems to talk about is Russell Tialavea,
who while not spectacular was steady as a rock. He will be missed this season.