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Comments about ‘Defending the Faith: Annual FAIR conference set for Aug. 1-2’

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Published: Thursday, July 11 2013 5:00 a.m. MDT

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Ernest T. Bass
Bountiful, UT

When are they going to take an honest, scientific approach to the real issues?

Craig Clark
Boulder, CO

Ernest T. Bass,

"When are they going to take an honest, scientific approach to the real issues?"
______________________________

Remember that it's apologetics. As long they're up front about that, I've no quarrel with them. But the moment they try to pass apologetics off as scholarship, they're fair game.

R JOHNSON
Saint George, UT

Apologetics and scholarship aren't mutually exclusive. Many LDS apologists are very fine scholars, and produce very scholarly information.

OnlytheCross
Bakersfield, CA

Just toss out the fabricated history, the mental gymnastics and be honest, accurate and forthright. It worked for our pioneer ancestors: Why can't it work now?

Coming up with convoluted reasons for why the First Vision is not mentioned anywhere in the first 20 years of the Church's existence, why Masonic oaths were lifted and incorporated, and why there is no outside, non-LDS scholarly acceptance of anything Book of Mormon is a good place to start. Then move to the false prophecies of JS, why BYoung waited 20 years to hand over John D. Lee, and why so many textual changes on the BoM.

That conference would be attended in spades. Period. End of FAIR's financial concerns. Oh, and keep an open Q&A each day...

kvnsmnsn
Springville, UT

Ernest Bass said:

=When are they going to take an honest, scientific approach to the real issues?

The only real issue, as far as I am concerned, is, has God chosen the LDS Church to take God's
message to the world? Ernest, how does one take a scientific approach to that?

timpClimber
Provo, UT

E.T.B. You mean discussing why believers live longer and more satisfying lives than unbelievers or why religious inspired self control can stop the spread of AIDs and STDs?

Craig Clark
Boulder, CO

R JOHNSON,

"Apologetics and scholarship aren't mutually exclusive...."
______________________________

I respect your views but must say that by strict definition, they are mutually exclusive.

Both apologists and antagonists do research to support a predetermined conclusion. Honest scholarship seeks neither to vindicate nor to debunk. It gathers evidence and ventures no more than it can demonstrate with verifiable facts and impeccable logic.

Do prejudices and biases impact their work? Of course they do as an honest scholar should readily admit. But their work is submitted to a process of criticism and peer review from a diverse spectrum.

sharrona
layton, UT

Re: R JOHNSON, Many LDS apologists are very fine scholars, and produce very scholarly information.?
@Defending the Faith [in JS]. The Greek word “apologia” simply means “defense.”

True,i.e.., But sanctify the “*Lord God” in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer=(apologia). (1 Peter 3:15 KJV).

But in your hearts revere “*Christ as Lord”. Always be prepared to give an answer=(apologia). 1Peter 3:15 NIV,ESV,NET,NLT). ). Modern translations are helpful VS KJV only.
“ *Christ as Lord.” is widely supported by excellent and earlier witnesses .

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is LORD=(YHWH)," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.(Romans 10:9) see Joel 2:32.

RE: ..”the topic Charity(agape) Never Faileth”(1Cor 13:8 KJV).Charity, Latin. often mis-used in KJV instead of the original Greek,agape= "love".

An accurate modern translation i.e.. (1 Corinthians 13:8 NET) “Love(agape) never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside….” See The Love chapter,1Cor 13.

kvnsmnsn
Springville, UT

OnlytheCross, I put together an article that responded to everything you said, but it ended up with 292 words, 92 over the software-imposed limit. Your topics were:

fabricated history
mental gymnastics
first vision
masonic oaths
scholarly acceptance
false prophecies
john d lee
textual changes

The only way to fit inside the limit is for you to pick two or three of these and I'll post what I've written on them.

kvnsmnsn
Springville, UT

Craig Clark posted:

=Do prejudices and biases impact their work? Of course they do as an honest
=scholar should readily admit. But their work is submitted to a process of
=criticism and peer review from a diverse spectrum.

I know why I believe in God, and I know why I believe God has chosen the LDS
Church to take God's message to the world. I would love to submit those reasons
"to a process of criticism and peer review from a diverse spectrum."

Church member
North Salt Lake, UT

To: kvnsmnsn

The only problem with your argument is, every religion "knows" that they are the true church. You "know" that God chose your church to spread his message. But billions of people around the world know that their church is God's favorite.

So maybe, just maybe, using your emotions and feelings is not the best way to find truth.

Maybe research and facts can be useful to help investigate a church.

Justin
Orem, Ut

"One panel (made up of Kris Frederickson, Valerie Hudson, Neylan McBain and Wendy Ulrich) will be devoted to the topic 'Charity Never Faileth: Healing the Distrust among LDS Women with Different Perspectives on Feminism.'"

There's actually a fifth member of the panel: V.H. Cassler.

skeptic
Phoenix, AZ

FAIR is one of the world's all time best managed and funded propaganda organizations.

G L W8
SPRINGVILLE, UT

Earnest T. Bass: An honest, scientific approach? Get real. Science has limitations, imposed by the empirical method. Craig Clark talks about bias impacting scientist's work. I would state it more strongly: some scientists are notorious for taking a discovery of a specific empirical study and extrapolating its results into areas where it does not even fit. Then, in a short period of time, theories thus developed become stated facts! Fortunately, there are scientists who recognize that conclusions can be open-ended and do further research. But we as a general public must be wary of those spouting "scientific truth" as if it were their religion.
Yes, there are those who exercise more faith in science--wonderful as it is--without admitting to its limitations. And here I thought "faith" was a matter of belief in God!

maclouie
Falconer, NY

OnlytheCross,

"First Vision is not mentioned anywhere in the first 20 years of the Church's existence" - WRONG
"Masonic oaths were lifted and incorporated" - WRONG (I just looked it up)
"why there is no outside, non-LDS scholarly acceptance of anything Book of Mormon" - WRONG
"false prophecies of JS" - WRONG
"why BYoung waited 20 years to hand over John D. Lee" - INACCURATE but who cares?
"why so many textual changes on the BoM" - EXPLAINED

I've studied all the above.

Items like those above are promoted by anti-Mormon websites and at best become "he said,she said" issues. Between the two sides I find the LDS Church to be the most forthright , truthful, and honest compared to the anti's which promote many untruth's. Until the other side shapes up there is no need to listen to the anti's. If they lie about one thing, which I have seen them do on many websites, then what else are they lying about?

kvnsmnsn
Springville, UT

Church member posted:

=Maybe research and facts can be useful to help investigate a church.

The only relevant question is, has God chosen the LDS Church to spread His message? How would "research and facts" help in determining whether God has chosen the LDS Church for that purpose?

=The only problem with your argument is, every religion "knows" that they are
=the true church. You "know" that God chose your church to spread his message.
=But billions of people around the world know that their church is God's
=favorite.
=
=So maybe, just maybe, using your emotions and feelings is not the best way to
=find truth.

You seem to know a lot about "every religion," Church member. As a Latter-day Saint I was taught that the way to find out if the LDS Church is true is to ask God a question, completely ready for either a yes or no answer, ready to base the whole rest of my life on whatever answer God gave me, and wait for God's response. Is that the way each member of "every religion" discovers whether or not her/his religion is true? Why should I believe that?

coltakashi
Richland, WA

I have attended several of the FAIR conferences and always found them to be both intellectually forthright and presented in a spirit of love for all mankind. Make no mistake, FAIR is designed to tackle the most complex questions raised by critics of the.LDS Church, and it does so effectively by drawing upon the real expertise of scholars in every academic discipline. I loved the opportunity to ask questions if the speakers, both during the sessions and during the breaks. It was a great opportunity to meet many of my favorite authors, such as Terryl Givens. No one should miss the opportunity to watch.via streaming video over the internet. It is worth taking time off from work to watch it. It us also a great opportunity to buy books on LDS doctrine and history at a discount from the bookstore operated at the conference.

Brahmabull
sandy, ut

maclouie

If you think the church is the most forthright, honest, and truthful regarding its history I really don't believe that you have looked into it much.

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@kvnsmsn
"Ernest, how does one take a scientific approach to that?"

Produce evidence for the claims that are made to the extent that is possible (obviously evidence for whether or not Joseph had a particular vision isn't exactly producable), something like having evidence of the language allegedly used on the plates appearing anywhere else in North or South America might be the most useful thing.

Verdad
Orem, UT

V. H. Cassler and Valerie Hudson are one and the same person.

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