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Published: Wednesday, June 26 2013 5:30 p.m. MDT

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poyman
Lincoln City, OR

navel, Apparently you are the only one that doesn't know that Utah was invited to the PAC10 after Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas A&M, and Texas Tech turned down the invitation to solidify the Big 12 or because they prefered a membership in the SEC... Colorado accepted and the conference had to scrample for a 12th member and that's how y'all got invited... Had the Board of Trustees been open minded about Religious Schools, you probably would have had to wait till BYU turned them down.

As far as Utah being considered a more storied program than BYU I simply have to chuckle... Why is it that U-trolls can't deal with reality?...BYU has a larger fan base and a larger following... They have owned Utah over the past 40 years... From 1972 to 1993 Utah lost 18 of 20 games and never had a better season record than BYU... In fact the series since 1972 (when Edwards took over to the present) is BYU 26 Utah 15... And only 8 times in the entire 41 years did Utah have a better record... BYU's program has been rated one of the top 15 programs in the country.

Naval Vet
Philadelphia, PA

nottoosmartforUtes:

"Hey, Naval, I love your revisionist history."

MY "revisionist history"? MINE? YOU'RE the one rewriting the end of the Pac-10's overtures to the Big 12 as "Larry invited Colorado and 5 teams from the Big 12, Colorado accepted and the Texas/Oklahoma types told them what they could do with their invitation."

And that's most definitely NOT how it all went down.

Scott only invited 2 Big 12 teams: CU and Texas. CU said "yes"; Texas said "no". No other Big 12 team was invited, as their invitations were predicated solely on what Texas opted to do. Texas was the "big fish" here. A&M wanted nothing to do with the Pac-10, and Oklahoma was really the only other Big 12 school that the Pac-10 "wanted". Tech and State (who was getting cut out of the deal anyway) were only Texas/Oklahoma coattailers. When OU and OSU reapplied to the Pac-12 a year later, the Pac-12 DECLINED their application. Essentially, "no Texas" = "no other Big 12 team(s)".

And YOU'RE accusing ME of "revisionist history"?

Typical hypocritical coug.

Naval Vet
Philadelphia, PA

MacNasty:

"Saying toosmartfroryou is revising history is astoundingly ironic considering that you are delving into revisionist history. The PAC 10 wanted the Texas teams, but the Texas legislature basically said the PAC takes Baylor or no deal."

Seriously? YOU'RE accusing UU702 of"revising history" with THAT historical revision? The Texas legislature successfully pulled that stunt on the Big 8 when they tried expanding to a 10-team league with Texas and Texas A&M back in 1995, under the direction of the late Gov. Richards and late Lt. Gov. Bullock. But that was the last time it worked. There never WAS any legislation in Texas mandating Baylor follow the Longhorns to the Pac-10. You made that up. You "revised history".

Typical hypocritical coug.

Naval Vet
Philadelphia, PA

anti BCS:

"Sorry, that's complete revisionist history. The original plan was for the entire Big 12 South (Texas, Texas Tech, Texas A&M, Baylor, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma State) to merge with the PAC 10."

Baylor was NEVER part of the original plan! NEVER! You made that up. And YOU'RE calling out UU702 for "revisionist history"? Typical hypocrtitical coug.

The "original" plan was CU and Texas....back in 1995. When that didn't take, the Pac-10 held at 10 teams until flirting with expansion again in discussions 14-yrs later. In those later discussions, the Pac-10 considered CU and Texas as their first choice, but figuring Texas was a long shot, also discussed....UTAH as part of their expansion plans.

Later options included dropping Utah and CU in favor of Texas and Texas A&M, but that was ALSO considered a long shot.

The raid on the Big 12 South (CU, Tx, Tx Tech, Tx A&M, Okla, and OSU) wasn't dreamt up until Scott hired Creative Artists Agency (CAA), but Utah had ALREADY been in discussions for MONTHS!

And by the time the Pac-10 was ready to extend invites, UTAH was in w/ or w/o Texas.

guitarboy
South Jordan, UT

vN,

The Cougars have faced teams from the Pac-12 Conference 16 times under head coach Bronco Mendenhall and have earned a 9-7 record since 2005. See Wednesday's DN article "BYU, USC announce 3-game football series, first BYU home game in 2019."

What is the UofU's record against PAC teams since 1005?

guitarboy
South Jordan, UT

*2005 (correcting typo below)

Cougsndawgs
West Point , UT

Naval Vet:
I actually agree with everything you said until this: "And by the time the Pac-10 was ready to extend invites, UTAH was in w/ or w/o Texas".

It is, in fact true that actual invites were already extended to CU and Texas. But Creative Arts had a much bigger vision, which Scott liked and embraced. It was then thought that going to a Super 16 conference was the ultimate goal, so TT, TAMU, Oklahoma, and OSU were also considered as contingents with Texas. This would have been the 16 teams CAA and Scott wanted. Later in negotiations TAMU balked and openly stated their affinity for the SEC instead (it's still not known whether they would have actually gone with the others had Texas accepted the PAC10...they were on the fence). When TAMU became skittish, Scott visited Kansas to try and evaluate their interest instead. In the end, had Texas accepted and TAMU remained behind, it would have been between Kansas and Utah for the final 16th spot (Kansas is AAU, larger fanbase). When Texas said no, the PAC HAD to invite Utah as their only viable "tier 1" school to hold a CCG.

AZUTE1
Mesa, AZ

anti BCS/guitarboy--

There's an enormous difference in playing against PAC-12 schools in a week-in, week-out grind than it is to play against them in a "hit-and-miss" scenario where they get sandwiched in-between the bottom-feeders typically constituting 2-Star byu's schedule. The former not only requires a higher level of overall-talent but, more importantly, it requires BCS-level depth. These 2 things are precisely what UTAH's currently addressing in their BCS recruiting-classes as they transition into The PAC-12.

Despite this all-important difference, 2-Star byu can still only beat 2 PAC-12 schools which finished at the very bottom of the conference standings in 2011 OSU and 2012 WAZZU and got absolutely brutally curb-stomped at home by the only 2 PAC-12 schools which finished the season with a winning record, 2011 UTAH and 2012 OSU, to the tune of 96-34!

The 5th-game was yet another loss to UTAH, making 2-Star byu 0-2 against UTAH!

UTAH has now won 3 straight over 2-Star byu, 4 of 5, 8 of 11 and owns the overall record by miles and miles, 56-34-4!

guitarboy
South Jordan, UT

AZUTE1, lover of all things vN:

Some of the facts you allege, are true. Some are not.

You are correct that playing within the PAC conference, means playing more PAC teams more often.

You are also correct that Utah is 8-3 against BYU in the past 11 years. That is the main reason why I believe Utah football is, for the past 10 years, better, than BYU football.

That said, things are turning. The last two games at RES were in doubt until after the final play of the game. But there is also something to be said for who is the most recent winner. That is, again, Utah. Therefore, Utah has the better football team until proven otherwise. We'll see you in September. Anyone from either team who expects a win, should temper their words.

You forgot to mention that the MWC had a winning record against the PAC 12 at the date BYU and Utah exited the MWC.

You also evaded and did not answer (perhaps out of insecurity or fear) my question:

What is the UofU's record against PAC teams since 2005?

(continued)

AZUTE1
Mesa, AZ

anti BCS/guitarboy--

[Cont'd]

Although a slight upgrade in strength, not even 2-Star byu's 2013 schedule constitutes a legitimate week-in, week-out grind! This is something entirely foreign to 2-Star byu! 2-Star byu's 2013 schedule is ripe with weeks-off in-between their tougher games! See UTAH's 2013 mid-season 8-game strength for a comparison!

Phil Steele's 2013 SOS has UTAH's ranked precisely at #12 and 2-Star byu's precisely at #49, the latter falling barely inside of the nation's Top-50%!

AZUTE1
Mesa, AZ

guitarboy--

"You also evaded and did not answer (perhaps out of insecurity or fear) my question:

What is the UofU's record against PAC teams since 2005?"

Actually, I answered it head-on in my explanation of the difference in playing PAC-12 schools in a week-in, week-out grind as opposed to just simply playing against them every once in a while, which you evaded me on. Was it out of insecurity or fear?

guitarboy
South Jordan, UT

(continued) AZUTE1 (weewilly), lover of all things vN:

Those who slobber all over themselves trying to convince others Utah football and it's cute little 45,000 seat stadium and 3-point wins over BYU (but the 54-10 debacle in Provo was a definite huge win by Utah), make it far superior to BYU, seems like they protest too much.

Utah is, for now, a better football team than BYU, primarily due to the recent won-loss record: Utah is 4-1 of the last five, and the last three in a row.

But that does not mean Utah is 4-star and BYU 2-star. If BYU is 2-star, why does BYU have a multi-million dollar contract with EPSN, and a better record over 16 games against PAC teams than Utah since 2005?

BYU is 9-7 against PAC teams record since 2005. See Wednesday's DN article "BYU, USC announce 3-game football series, first BYU home game in 2019." What is Utah's record against PAC teams since 2005? Or 2005-2010/11 (if you want to exclude Utah's PAC years, since you seem to think that is too hard). Are you afraid to answer?

AZUTE1
Mesa, AZ

guitarboy--

"That said, things are turning."

How do you figure? The gap is widening rapidly in recruiting [19 of 2-Star byu's 28 commits in 2013 were rated 2-Stars by Scout, for instance, and 2014 is headed into the same, exact direction] and it was only 2 years ago that UTAH annihilated 2-Star byu on their homefield, 54-10! Even with numerous key-starters out last season, UTAH still had a commanding lead in the 4th-QTR of the game, 24-7, before taking their foot off the pedal and committing unforced-errors, which allowed 2-Star byu to stay in the game longer!

This is not a debate 2-Star byu fan is even remotely capable of winning!

AZUTE1
Mesa, AZ

guitarboy--

"BYU is 9-7 against PAC teams record since 2005. See Wednesday's DN article "BYU, USC announce 3-game football series, first BYU home game in 2019." What is Utah's record against PAC teams since 2005? Or 2005-2010/11 (if you want to exclude Utah's PAC years, since you seem to think that is too hard). Are you afraid to answer?"

Again, I answered you directly, yet you refuse to acknowledge it. Are you afraid to acknowledge it?

AZUTE1
Mesa, AZ

guitarboy--

I'm curious to know why you feel 2005 is the "appropriate" cut-off point? Why not go back to 2003? Or, how about covering all 15 BCS Era seasons? Why stop at 2005? What's so special about 2005?

How about listing, while you're at it, the names of each school beat and their final records/each season you reference?

guitarboy
South Jordan, UT

BYU is 9-7 against PAC teams since 2005. See Wednesday's DN article "BYU, USC announce 3-game football series, first BYU home game in 2019."

BYU will see Utah in September, and then we will see how well placed AZUTE1's evasiveness is.

Let the record reflect that AZUTE1 (weewilly), lover of all things vN, refuses to tell us what Utah's record is against PAC teams since 2005, or even from 2005-2010/11 (i.e. excluding Utah's PAC years in a weak PAC division, which AZUTE seems to think that is too hard).

AZUTE1
Mesa, AZ

guitarboy--

"Let the record reflect that AZUTE1 (weewilly), lover of all things vN, refuses to tell us what Utah's record is against PAC teams since 2005, or even from 2005-2010/11 (i.e. excluding Utah's PAC years in a weak PAC division, which AZUTE seems to think that is too hard)."

Let the record reflect, guitarboy has refused to acknowledge my direct-response to his question refuses to acknowledge any/all of what I've stated in relation to it!

AZUTE1
Mesa, AZ

Correction--

"....my direct-response to his question AND refuses...."

Naval Vet
Philadelphia, PA

Cougsndawgs:

"When TAMU became skittish, Scott visited Kansas to try and evaluate their interest instead. In the end, had Texas accepted and TAMU remained behind, it would have been between Kansas and Utah for the final 16th spot (Kansas is AAU, larger fanbase)."

Between Utah and Kansas, it isn't known who would have taken the 16th spot, but that fact of the matter is nothing more than immaterial splitting of hairs. Had Kansas been the 16th team, Utah would have been the 15th. Had Utah been the 16th team, then Kansas would have been the 15th.

CU took the 1st spot, so had Texas accepted, they would have taken the 2nd. Spots 3 and 4 would have gone to Oklahoma and Tx. Tech. Oklahoma St. wasn't getting an invite, so Utah and Kansas would taken the 5th and 6th.

NightOwlAmerica
SALEM, OR

There was never an original plan to invite Baylor to the PAC. That started with crying politicians with ties to the school attempting to ride the coattails of Texas in the move.

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