Comments about ‘LDS, Catholic and other religious leaders react to DOMA, Prop 8 Supreme Court rulings’

Return to article »

Published: Wednesday, June 26 2013 12:20 p.m. MDT

Comments
  • Oldest first
  • Newest first
  • Most recommended
Rand
Ogden, UT

Bill in Nebraska,
You could live 100,000 years and never see the scenario you presented. Regardless, I feel sorry for those who live their whole lives in fear of the retribution of a god who claims to simultaneously love his children and threaten to destroy them for not following a set of archaic instructions. Perhaps it gives you comfort to believe that those who disagree with you will be "utterly destroyed", but for many of us that seems rather depraved. And for those homosexual couples who simply wanted secular marriage rights, I'm sure they don't share the same lust for your destruction. Something to keep in mind.

Gregg Weber
SEATTLE, WA

I saw a reference to a bakery not selling a cake to a wedding for religious reasons.
What if that was reversed? What if there was a cake saying [Now I want to get this OK'ed so I can only say that the cake wording is for one religious belief and against another (like Islam or Atheism) and the progressive owner rejected the sale?
Shouldn't the owner be able to sell who whomever s/he wants and take the consequences of the sale going to some competition?

OutsideUT
Lilburn, GA

@Really ???

"They cannot..choose their clientele"

And therein lies the problem. You are correct, state law requires a person to do something, in this case support gay marriage, against their will.

In the case of the florist, the couple could have simply respected her decision not to support their marriage and used someone else. However, they are now using a law that was started with good intentions to destroy a woman over her personal beliefs.

Legal? Yes. Moral? No.

Yet, I'm told that I shouldn't worry because no gay couple would ever sue because a church won't perform a gay marriage. Except church's are also public places, and now this is a discrimination issue, and it already has happened to the UMC.

Personally, I think in the end this will be nothing more than an inconvenience, and churches will likely stop performing "weddings" and instead perform non-public rituals after a couple gets "married" at the courthouse, same as other countries.

But it's sad to see good intentioned laws, such as the civil rights acts, twisted to take away the rights of the majority, without adding any benefit to the minority.

Lightbearer
Brigham City, UT

Mark 12:31 says: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Matthew 5:44 says: "Love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you."

Matthew 7:12 says: "In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you, for this fulfills the law and the prophets."

If you go to a business, how do you want to be treated? Do you want to be refused service because the owner doesn't like your race, gender, weight, hair color, sexual orientation, religion, etc.?

I doubt it.

Then why would you want to refuse service to those who come into your business? Is that how you demonstrate your love for your neighbor (or your enemy)? Is that treating others as you would want them to treat you?

Capn Crunch
Ogden, UT

Please explain to me exactly how shooting down DOMA changed the definition of marriage? According to Merriam-Webster Marriage is "(1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage." Seems the same to me. There are actually some states where you can marry your horse. How is that okay to people, but those same people think gay marriage is a sin? There is no place for religious bigotry in our laws. This country was not founded on religion. This country was founded by secularists who left their homeland where many were being persecuted because of their religion. They didn't want religion to cause the same issues here so they made it important to emphasize that this country was not founded on religion and should not be ran with religion in mind; it will be ran for the people. I really wish people would stop saying this country was founded on "biblical principles". IT WASN'T.

amazondoc
USA, TN

@Bill --

"For those who say this will not destroy this country: Here is proof that it will"

Bill, you do understand that less than 2% of the US population believes in the Book of Mormon -- right?

Try these on for size instead:

"If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world." John 12:47

"Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22:37-40

"For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other." Galatians 5:14-15

"There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?" James 4:12

kaysvillecougar
KAYSVILLE, UT

It's interesting that so many of you in the gay community are so intolerant of religious people exercising their constitutional rights of free speech. I would think there would be greater tolerance and understanding, but the shrill comments noted on this and many other articles sadly shows the lack of tolerance that you desire from others.

Hamath
Omaha, NE

@ Dan O,

Read up on the Civil Rights Movement and how the National Guard was used there. Perhaps it was appropriate then or perhaps it wasn't. You should chose. However, there is history of the National Guard being used to force people to adhere to others beliefs.

@ Ranch
I'm talking about marriage as a religious ceremony. As far as the law goes, I see your point. Marriage was originally a religious ceremony and the gov't got involved for record keeping and tax purposes. So all sorts of ramifications are associated with it now. That doesn't change the fact that the ceremony is religious/moral to many people, priests and bishops, etc. Should they be forced to perform a marriage that they fundamentally don't believe it and believe is wrong?

@ Happy Heretic...Since I wrote my post, I read about a church being sued and losing because they wouldn't allow a gay marriage on their property. Is that good for your point of view? It's wrong to the core. You church must not believe what you do because I disagree with you and I will force you to do otherwise.

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

@Blue AZ Cougar;

I'm sorry, but please explain to me how it is "respectful" to denigrate an entire group of decent Americans by claiming you must "protect" the children from them?

That isn't "respectful" in my book.

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

@OutsideUT;

Why should people have to choose a different florist than their favorite (the florist in question had been selling flowers to that particular gay couple for years) or choose a different baker than their favorite?

Who is a better Christian, the gay couple who treats others the way they want to be treated or the "Christian" who REFUSES to follow the commandment Jesus himself gave them: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? I'd wager the gay couple are the better Christians.

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

@kaysvillecougar;

Denying LGBT couples the right to marry the person of their choice isn't "tolerance" or free speech, it's tyranny.

Happy Valley Heretic
Orem, UT

Hamath "@ Happy Heretic...Since I wrote my post, I read about a church being sued and losing because they wouldn't allow a gay marriage on their property. Is that good for your point of view? "

Telling half a story changes ones point of view. I see you used the word "property" it's a rental property open to the public as in a "Business." The church leaders were not "Forced" to marry anyone as you also eluded to with "allow a gay marriage." and now you know the rest of the story.

Your still free to voice your hatred, because I agree with free speech, I'm just more persuaded by the truth instead of clever editing.

RFLASH
Salt Lake City, UT

It is an issue about religious freedom, but maybe somebody should take into consideration the fact that gay people worship God also! They try and define us as evil and whatever else suits them, but they never consider our beliefs in God! Are we so stupid that we understand nothing?I have a right to believe that God created me the way I am. I have a right to relationships that help me live a better life! I have a right to stand up to any lie that is put out there concerning my life! He is our God as well as yours! I can not speak for all of you, but this has never been some joy ride or joke. This has been harder than people will ever know and I know that God is aware of all of it! All of it! What you do is wrong! What it does to others is something you can only know if you live it, but never in my wildest dreams did I ever think that LDS people would do these things. My beliefs in God are just as important! I have tried for years, but Mormons never listen!

Blue AZ Cougar
,

@RanchHand

I was trying to have a candid conversation about what my concerns are. I wasn't being facetious and I certainly wasn't denigrating anybody. I didn't, or at least wasn't trying, to use any hateful words. It seems to me that because you do not have the same concerns I do, somehow I'm not allowed to voice mine. Somehow my concerns are not important simply because you don't share the same view.

Can you pause for just a second and consider that I disagree with same-sex marriage on moral grounds? And based on that, and based on how I would like to raise my kids, I find it a little concerning that they might be taught that same-sex marriage is OK despite the fact that I disagree with it on moral and religious grounds.

I realize some people think that "moral and religious grounds" have no merit, but I believe they do. As I said in my original comment, I have the responsibility as a parent to teach my kids respect for all people, regardless of their orientation. I also have the right, though, to teach my kids about morals and religion.

Steve C. Warren
WEST VALLEY CITY, UT

For those who feel the so-called rights of the majority were trampled in the Supreme Court's decision on Prop. 8, a few thoughts: 1. If Prop. 8 were on the ballot today, it would almost certainly be defeated. 2. The governor and attorney general who decided not to defend Prop. 8 were also elected by majority vote. 3. Under the U.S. Constitution, we have individual rights--not rights of the majority. Otherwise, we'd end up with Southern States depriving minorities of rights and "Christian" voters forcing businesses to close on Sunday. (Oh, wait. That last thing does happen in Highland, Utah.)

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@Blue AZ Cougar – “I realize some people think that "moral and religious grounds" have no merit, but I believe they do.”

You’re confusing the issue by implying that people who view this differently than you have no morals, when in fact they simply have a different moral standard.

You chose to base your moral view on your religious views (e.g., a few obscure passages in the Bible) whereas other folks have a different moral basis – which by the way might be just as religious as yours (e.g., compassion, love your neighbor, tolerance of differences that cause me no harm, etc…).

Perhaps something to think about – assuming your views are based on the Bible, why are you picking and choosing what passages to follow? Since it is one the “Big Ten” why aren’t you championing laws to close all businesses on Sunday or perhaps even throwing stones at your neighbor when he mows his lawn on a Sunday?

Also, we should note that the Federal government is explicitly forbidden from championing your moral standards (that are religiously based) over others.

hpr
Salt Lake City, UT

@Bill in Nebraska: The Supreme Court makes sure people follow the laws and the constitution. For those of you that I saw whining on television who said that every vote should count and the majority of people in California voted for Prop 8, I say, the peoples' votes should count unless they are voting in favor or against something that is in essence illegal/a violation of the constitutional rights. If you don't want to have your wishes overturned then don't try to pass a law that violates those rights. And if I hear one more person refer to God and his wishes or refer to marriage being between and man and a woman and God, I think I will scream. Are you trying to say that Atheists do not have the right to marry? Are you saying that Agnostics do not have the right to marry? What gives you the right to make those decisions and say who can or can't marry? What if suddenly someone had a revelation that we all had to love the same sex?

Blue AZ Cougar
,

@Tyler D

I see your point about a different moral standard, that's a good point. However, I never said I based my moral views on a narrow interpretation of the Bible -- that was your assumption. In fact, I haven't quoted any scripture thus far, so I'm surprised you know what my views of the Bible are.

I'm not sure you read my last comment in its entirety. I clearly said I have a responsibility to teach my kids respect for all people, regardless of their orientation. I believe that is in line with the passages of scripture you cited (e.g. compassion, love your neighbor, etc). That doesn't mean I have to agree with what that lifestyle or what everyone does, or throw a party when someone wants to trample on my religious views.

Don't you think people who support same-sex marriage, who also claim to be religious, are picking and choosing only certain passages of scripture by which to live? Perhaps they haven't read Deuteronomy 23:17, Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, Isaiah 3:9, Romans 1:27, or Jude 1:7.

TRUTH
Salt Lake City, UT

Get ready...NAMBLA and polygamy are going to ride the coat tails of this ruling!! And Rightly so!

They are no different than GLBTers!

TNChristopher
Kingsport, TN

For those who keep harping on the churches that voiced their opinions in the Prop 8 vote, may I remind you that no church hss a vote but they certainly have the right to voice their views. Only individuals can step into that voting booth and vote according to their conscience. And their vote is secret...they are not beholden to how a church or any other organization says they should vote.

Apparently the courts don't respect the right of individual citizens to vote.

to comment

DeseretNews.com encourages a civil dialogue among its readers. We welcome your thoughtful comments.
About comments