Comments about ‘Man accused of dressing as woman and taking pictures in female dorm rooms’

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Published: Tuesday, June 25 2013 9:55 a.m. MDT

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Chris B
Salt Lake City, UT

As this was a students only area there is another "level" he broke, but consider for a moment this was a man posing as a female, entering a women's only area such as restroom or gym locker room.

Who is to say he's a man and not a woman?

I thought each person got to decide for themselves whether they were a man or a woman?

My current understanding from liberals is that it is impossible to tell by looking at someone or even by their anatomy whether someone is male or female.

NedGrimley
Brigham City, UT

Wait a minute! Isn't California right in the middle of "Gender Liberation" legislation that allows you to choose what you are and show up in whatever bathroom or dressing room you want to? Obviously this guy has made a choice. Shouldn't he be "liberated" so he can pursue his true path in life?

Random
Redlands, CA

And we in California were told, and are being told, this wouldn't happen. There are some sane, rational thinkers in California; unfortunately, most politicians aren't in that class.

Eliot
Santaquin, UT

I think you all missed the part of the story where he was arrested for assault because he tried to run over a security guard with his vehicle. There is no mention of impending charges for voyeurism or trespassing.

Christopher B
Ogden, UT

Eliot,

Although there is no mention of these charges does not mean they are out outstanding.

Additionally, if there was not some concern of a "man" being in a women's area it is doubtful authorities ever would have been called.

Yes, he was in a student area, but assuming it was a female in an all female student area it is likely many people would have had no idea "she" was not a student.

Apparently someone thought it was "not ok" for man to be in a woman's area, thus making a call to authorities in the first place.

The argument still holds.

Phranc
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

It seems to me all the posters above are the same ones that argue against gun laws when a violent gun act happens because "criminals don't follow the law anyway, etc etc etc... Do any of you same people really think laws restricting the rights of actual transgender people would really stop a criminal like this?

NedGrimley
Brigham City, UT

Actually, Phranc, it seems the posters here just see the irony of the story, given the recent events in California and the whole idea of being "liberated" from those old, stodgy stereotypes.

Maybe a better question would be: "When the law facilitates this kind of activity, (even promotes it) what will it take to realize the line has been drawn a little to far to the left?"

Kalindra
Salt Lake City, Utah

A guy dresses as a woman to commit a series of crimes - and this is being used as an argument to limit the rights of transgender and transsexual individuals.

People dress as clowns to commit crimes. Should we limit the right of people to be clowns?

People dress as war heroes to commit crime. Should we ban people from joining the military?

What about priests? Presidents? Airline pilots? Scout leaders? Pregnant women?

How many people's rights should be limited because criminals use fake identities to commit crimes?

Christopher B
Ogden, UT

phrank,

"Do any of you same people really think laws restricting the rights of actual transgender people would really stop a criminal like this?"

No one is suggesting giving "transgender" people what they want will stop this.

Not even close.

Not sure where you got that idea?

We are suggesting that if liberals get what they want - that is - deciding that every person has the right to decide which gender they "are" on any given day, there will soon be no way to prevent any man from going into a women's locker room.

We are suggesting there will be MORE issues in the future, not the prevention of some.

Pretty soon who will have the right to tell any individual whether they can go into a woman's locker room?

Each person can decide what they are right?

Phranc
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

@nedgrimmley

I could make the same argument for gun control if I wanted to be (rightly)blasted for trying to take away honest gun owners rights.

"When the the laws and lack of laws facilitates gun violence, (even promotes it) what will it take to realize the line has been drawn a little to far to the right?"

As kalindra points out you could apply the same failed logic to any group or behavior since criminals will ignore or exploit any limits or freedoms we create.

Do we just say nobody gets to have any freedoms because some criminal is going to commit a crime if we do?

paintandestroy
Richmond/Cache, UT

So by gender equality logic can a gay man enter a womans dressing area for example or just a gay man who has had an operation to appear female? Can someone who appears male (as a result of surgery) but was born female enter a womans dressing area? This not meant out of disrespect toward anyone-I believe in kindness toward all- but how do we respect the gender of someone who doesn't recognize birth gender when it violates the privacy of everyone else?

Phranc
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

@Chris B
So then you think transgender people should have the right to go into a women bathroom and locker room as long as they meet some kind of criteria?

otherwise, I am afraid you are looking for a distinction without a difference.

Tolstoy
salt lake, UT

@paintanddistroy

first you may not be aware their is a difference between a gay man and a transgender individuals? Someone that has undergone surgery is transgender but most often not gay. I know it is confusing but let me see if I can explain. Someone that goes through surgery does so because they truly believe they are trapped in the wrong body. So if they have surgery to lets say go from male to female, they already view themselves as female so the fact that they are attracted to men to them makes them straight not gay. Transgender people really do view themselves as in the wrong body and believe their body has betrayed them. So building understanding and therefore hopefully building respect for their basic human dignity to be who they truly believe they are can begin to lower unfounded fear about privacy.

Kalindra
Salt Lake City, Utah

@ Chris B: Your comments show a deep misunderstanding of what it means to be transgender or transsexual. They also reveal a deep fear of something you don't understand.

Transgender and transsexual individuals don't change their identity daily anymore than anyone else does.

The best solution is gender-neutral restrooms and locker rooms with individual stalls that afford privacy to all. No one should have to perform bodily functions in public nor should they have to dress or undress in front of perfect strangers.

Christopher B
Ogden, UT

toystory,

"Transgender people really do view themselves as in the wrong body and believe their body has betrayed them"

I don't doubt that's what they THINK.

But I'm talking about what they ARE.

If I THINK I'm a dinosaur that doesn't make it so.

Doesn't matter if I paint my skin, have surgery, attach claws. I'm still a human. Not a dinosaur.

Encouraging make belief is fine for 2 year olds.

But at some people reality needs to be faced.

With very REAL consqeuences.

As a society we all agree men should be in men's locker rooms and women in women's locker rooms.

Unless we use the same definition of "men" and "women" as has been used for millions of years, there can be no preventing ever of someone who wants to go in either locker room correct?

Who are you to say the "man" in this story isnt a female?

If so - he should be allowed in the locker room no questions asked right?

And if you want to bring up the straw man of talking pictures, fine. Bring it up.

And then answer it assuming he wasn't.

Chris B
Salt Lake City, UT

Kalindra,

I applaud you or at least providing an answer to the issues I bring up. Typically liberals dance around the issue without providing an answer to very real situations.

I still feel your proposal is short sighted.

So you propose 3 restrooms/locker rooms everywhere?

Again I ask who gets to decide who enters which? Or is anyone free to enter any of them? Again liberals say each person is the only one who decides which gender they are right?

The time will come when these questions have to be answered.

I would love if you dare to provide an answer to all these issues, and not dance around it.

What types of locker rooms/restrooms will be required by law?
Who get to decide who can enter each one?

Tolstoy
salt lake, UT

@chris b

"Toy story?" Very mature, it does however illustrate why you struggle to follow such a grown up conversation that does not fit into your black and white developmental level.

There are medical/psychological definitions of transgender and transsexual that are accepted definitions not only in the medical and mental health fields but in a court of law.so no it is not some arbitrary idea some liberal thought up to try to get one over on you

Chris B
Salt Lake City, UT

Tolstoy,

There are medical definitions of transgender?

Fine. I accept that.

Again I ask who gets to decide who enters a male locker room and who enters a female locker room?

You still avoid the single most important question I raise.

This article is about a "man" in a female area.

Who is to say he is not a woman?

I thought each person to to decide?

I will repeat

What are the definitions of male and female such that will apply to who should go in male locker rooms and who should go in female locker rooms?

Does each person still always get to decide?

Kalindra
Salt Lake City, Utah

@ Chris B: No, I do not propose 3 bathrooms/locker rooms - I propose one, which would have private areas for private business and everyone would use that one. You would walk in, there would be a communal sink and mirrors and lockers if it is a locker room and then there would be a bunch of stalls with doors that close and you would take your stuff, go into the stall, and do your business.

There are many places worldwide, including in the US, that already do this.

And FYI - the crimes this man committed are not the straw men - what the man was wearing is the straw man.

If this man had been dressed as a woman, walking down the street, taking pictures - it would have been completely legal. The crimes he committed were trespassing, privacy violations related to taking pictures without permission in a private area, and assault as he was fleeing the scene. If he had dressed as a janitor to do all that - it still would have been just as illegal. What he was wearing does not affect the illegality of his actions and how he was dressed is not a crime.

spring street
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

@chris b

How exactly did tolstoy not address your question? we have definitions which you "accept" for trans people using this definition the courts legally recognize that person as being of the sex they identify with not the one they were born as. So no a man wearing a dress walking into a women's restroom is not considered by the court of law or by the medical profession to be female. So I have to wonder are you purposely trying to be myopic because you don't care for the facts or are you really as tolstoy describes above?

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