Comments about ‘BYU football: Cougars must secure their own bowl game alliances in the world of independence’

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Published: Sunday, June 16 2013 6:06 p.m. MDT

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steeleute
Sandy, UT

mussingaround:

And it was 4 of our losses, not five. Oregon State, Utah State, and UCLA

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

naval's back declaring himself victorious. It's a good thing the actual navy doesn't do that.

LOL!

MacNasty
Rexburg, ID

Re: Duckhunter @ 5:45 pm

One thing NV knows how to do is write "desperate" and "emotional"; he is a master at them both.

mussingaround
Palo Alto, CA

steeleute

You lost credibility by claiming that 10-3 or 11-2 wasn't within easy reach.

An errant snap scoop and score gift at Utah in a 3-point loss, a missed 2-point conversion because one player missed one block at Boise State in a 1-point loss, an errant pass to a wide open receiver with nothing but green grass in front of him at Notre Dame in a 3-point loss, and 3 incomplete passes from the 6-yard line in the fourth quarter at San Jose St in a 6-point loss were the difference between finishing 10-3 or 11-2, or 7-5.

Utah's SOS wasn't its problem. Utah's pathetic offense (109th in the country, unbelievably, worse than BYU's 58th ranked offense) was the reason Utah didn't win more than 5 games against a schedule that only included two ranked teams.

If you think you can make the same argument for Utah, go for it, but, just to warn you, you're going to look awfully foolish. The Utes didn't lose a single game by less than a touchdown.

Cougsndawgs
West Point , UT

As long as we're talking Phil Steele lets look at some other facts:
BYUs power ranking would have placed them tied for 4th in the PAC12, while Utah's was 9th. BYU has the 12th rated WR unit in the country while Utah isn't ranked in the top 15 for any unit. As Wiscougar stated BYU has 8 preseason all independent 1st team players, 5 2nd team, and 1 3rd team...Utah 1st team all conference- none, 2nd team- 1, 3rd team- 1. Preseason Top 40- BYU #37, Utah NR.

Steele also does an interesting analysis of "strength of wins" and "quality losses". In strength of wins he analyzes a teams wins and then the number of wins those opponents had (giving only credit for opponent wins of teams you beat). BYUs Strength of Wins ranking was 49 (35 wins by opponents they had beat)...Utah's ranking was 86 (15).On the flip side, quality losses takes a teams losses and totals the number of losses the teams they lost to had. BYU ranked 35 (opponents lost 16 games), Utah ranked 79 (33).

It's no wonder NV, AZUTE, and Howie only want to talk SOS...for them what else is there?

Howard S.
Taylorsville, UT

Re:Cougar Nation

SOS, rankings, sports writer opinions, and coulda-woulda-shoudas...

Cougars like to throw these things out as validation of their national relevance.

Consider this...

SOS? computer generated analysis is always accurate, right?

Polls? polls are based on votes of sports writers and secretaries of college coaches - both groups known for their accuracy, right?

Sports writer opinions? if writers could coach or play they would, instead they spout opinions for which there is no accountability.

Coulda-woulda-shoudas? talk to the hand.

The point is that Cougars like to talk about these things because they can't justify the relevance of their team with on-field results against quality competition.

Let's not be distracted from the fact the Cougars have a losing record against BCS teams (ranked and unranked) that Bronco has played... their record is great against 2nd tier competition, but when they play the big boys they lose more than they win.

So Cougars prefer to talk about things like SOS, rankings, preseason predictions, 3rd tier bowls, and coulda-woulda-shoudas... anything that distracts from the fact that when it comes to playing the big boys they can’t get-r-done.

Cougsndawgs
West Point , UT

And what's your definition of "getting-r-done" against the big boys Howie? 7-11 with no wins against conference teams with winning records, let alone being ranked? Watching A Christmas Story instead of a bowl game? Sitting outside any and all rankings for offense, defense, sports writers and computers? It would be one thing if Utah had even been close to the rankings but they weren't even top 50 in any poll or power ranking, so all your fussing about human error or writers and computers etc just comes off as whiney sour grapes.

It amazes me how some ute fans want to continue to belittle BYU for accomplishments the utes have never had, or make excuses like SOS for Utah's failure, while using it as a way to minimize BYUs accomplishments despite having the same SOS for nearly a century (jealous much?). WE "prefer to talk about things like SOS"? No, Howie, that's you, Nav vets, and AZUTEs standby excuse for every ute failure and BYU success. One only needs look back on all the posts from U three to see who is perseverating on SOS, and continually, nauseatingly bringing it up.

mussingaround
Palo Alto, CA

Howard S.

Since when does attaching a "bcs" label to any team automatically make that team good, bad or mediocre?

It's laughable that you obsess about "computer-generated" SOS, while completely ignoring the computer-generated rankings that are based on team records against said SOS.

Sagarin's computer-generated rankings during the Bronco/Kyle era, along with the "human" rankings and team records:

2005 unranked/#55 BYU(6-6) < unranked/#51 Utah(7-5)
2006 #16/#15/#19 BYU(11-2) > unranked/#54 Utah(8-5)
2007 #14/#15/#17 BYU(11-2) > unranked/#34 Utah(9-4)
2008 #25/#21/#32 BYU(10-3) < #2/#4/#5 Utah(13-0)
2009 #12/#12/#15 BYU(11-2) > #18/#18/#24 Utah(10-3)
2010 unranked/#45 BYU(7-6) < ur/#23/#26 Utah(10-3)
2011 ur/#25/#34 BYU(10-3) > unranked/#39 Utah(8-5)
2012 unranked/#26 BYU(8-5) > unranked/#61 Utah(5-7)

BYU better than Utah 5 of 8 seasons.

Unfortunately, the results disprove your theory that computer-generated rankings are "more accurate" because they consider SOS. As you can plainly see, there's not much difference. Humans also consider SOS when ranking teams.

sammyg
Springville, UT

howie

And let's not forget the fact that the Utes could not win enough games last year to make a bowl game despite all their talk about being so great.

And let's also not forget that Ute fans like to base their predictions of future PAC10.2 results based on past performance in a McWacish conferences while whining about SOS.

phoenix
Gilbert, AZ

howie

"The point is that Cougars like to talk about these things because they can't justify the relevance of their team with on-field results against quality competition."

Can U?

Simply attaching the BCS label to any team doesn't make them "quality" competition. Having a winning record determines whether they're "quality" competition or not.

During Utah's best period EVER, quality wins against BCS teams with winning records (WW) barely outnumber embarrassing losses to any team with a losing record (LL) 9-7:

2003 1-1 WW = California(8-6); LL = Texas A&M(4-8)
2004 2-0 WW = Texas A&M(7-5), Pittsburgh(8-4)
2005 1-2 WW = Georgia Tech(7-5); LL = No Carolina(5-6), SDSU(5-7)
2006 0-1 WW = NONE; LL = New Mexico(6-7)
2007 0-1 WW = NONE; LL = UNLV(2-10)
2008 2-0 WW = Oregon St(9-4), Alabama(12-2); LL = none
2009 1-0 WW = California(8-5); LL = none
2010 1-0 WW = Pittsburgh(8-5); LL = none
2011 1-2 WW = Georgia Tech(8-5); LL = ASU(6-7), Colorado(3-10)
2012 0-0 WW = NONE; LL = none

Spokane Ute
Spokane, WA

@McNasty

I will put on my Sugar Bowl Hoodie, you know the one with 13-0 on the back; and watch the 2009 Sugar Bowl. Remember that one? You know a BCS bowl, against a SEC Power House? Oh...that's right sorry.

Howard S.
Taylorsville, UT

@mussingaround
Palo Alto, CA

Obsessing about SOS... not me...

All anyone needs to know about BYU's place in world of college football is that when they play teams from MWC/WAC and lower conferences they have an 80% winning percentage... when they play teams from BCS conferences they have a 46% winning percentage.

The "legacy" that BYU fans cling so desperately to is a "2nd tier legacy" based on 2nd tier competition... because it certainly isn't based on BYU's 46% record against teams from the 1st tier conferences.

Think of it this way... against 2nd tier competition BYU is the windshield... against 1st tier competition BYU is the bug.

And yet... Cougar Nation astoundingly believes that their 46% BCS record places them on equal footing with the elite teams who earn their success year in and year out against 1st tier teams from the strongest conferences in the country.

Howard S.
Taylorsville, UT

phoenix
Gilbert, AZ

"Simply attaching the BCS label to any team doesn't make them "quality" competition."
***********

If the BCS label doesn't make them quality competition why does BYU lose to the BCS more often than they win?

phoenix
Gilbert, AZ

howie

"If the BCS label doesn't make them quality competition why does BYU lose to the BCS more often than they win?"

Obviously, you're still having a hard understanding that any opponent with a losing record cannot be defined as "quality" competition.

When you've figured that out, get back to me and we'll discuss BYU's record versus quality competition versus Utah's record versus non-quality competition (that is, teams with LOSING records).

TrueBlue
Orem, UT

howard

After all of your posturing and spinning about SOS, quality wins, BCS opponents, rankings, and general excuse-making about why the Utes have been so pitiful in establishing their relevance through national rankings and overall record, the bottom line is this:

In wins versus FBS teams with winning records (quality wins) and losses versus teams with losing records (ugly losses):

Bronco: 22-4
Kyle: 22-6

Bronco has matched Kyle in quality wins, but is better than Kyle in avoiding ugly losses.

TWO of Kyle's losses were EXTREMELY ugly, as in losses to 10-loss teams.

Spokane Ute
Spokane, WA

@ Phoenix

Why not just cut to the chase and discuss Utah's record vs. BYU?

What a concept!

Howard S.
Taylorsville, UT

@TrueBlue

Exclude WAC/MWC teams from your definition of quality wins. Beating Utah State with a winning record is not the same as beating Alabama with a winning record.

Your analysis is another example of BYU relying on its record against 2nd tier competition to justify its relevance.

What major conference teams with winning records has BYU beaten?

phoenix
Gilbert, AZ

Spokane Ute

"Why not just cut to the chase and discuss Utah's record vs. BYU?"

Because on a national and overall accomplishments scale, Utah's record vs. BYU is IRRELEVANT!

U won a whole bunch of head-to-head games back in the days before color television, but Utah is a complete ZERO in national accomplishments before 1964, and a near complete ZERO in national accomplishments before 2004.

As much as it pains U to admit it, BYU has almost as many AP Top 25 finishes in the last seven years, as Utah has in its entire history.

It's laughable that fans of a program that's only managed FIVE AP Top 25 finishes in their entire history would be trying to prove their "superiority" over a program that has more than THREE times that number of AP Top 25 finishes.

The stark reality for U is this:

BYU: Ranked in AP Poll: 11 Times (Preseason), 17 Times (Final), 236 Weeks (Total)
Utah: Ranked in AP Poll: 2 Times (Preseason), 5 Times (Final), 77 Weeks (Total)

Get back to us when U reach double digits in AP Top 25 finishes.

It took U 119 seasons to reach FIVE!

What a concept!

Cougsndawgs
West Point , UT

Spokane Ute:
"Why not just cut to the chase and discuss Utah's record vs. BYU? What a concept!"

Because the discussion was about national relevance. No one outside the BYU/Utah fanbase cares what they did against each other. In the end they look at wins and rankings. No one cares what Alabama did against Auburn lately except their fanbase...the rest of the country only sees their number 1 ranking, national awards, and impressive record.

Spokane Ute
Spokane, WA

Phoenix

You seem to be getting upset with my simple question. You must own a black and white TV, I watched the last three games in HD. You seem to be rambling, and all over the map. Take a deep breath, it will be OK. I'm just some one with a differen't opinion who supports your rival.

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