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Survey: Gay and lesbian population has unique religious profile

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  • Contrarius Lebanon, TN
    June 20, 2013 10:30 a.m.

    @Doc1895 --

    "The Christian Bible clearly defines homosexuality as perverse behavior and is condemned by God."

    Many many Christians (and also Jews) disagree with you.

    Many Christian and Jewish denominations are already happy to perform gay weddings in their churches. They are quite able to reconcile their religious beliefs with support for gay rights.

    "But, the so-called LGBT community already has full equality, not just partial equality. "

    This is simply not true. As long as discrimination against them still exists -- not only in their ability to marry, but also in such areas as employment, housing, and simple safety -- then they will still not have full equality.

    "Of course, this is simply absurd!"

    Why?

    Where gay people are allowed to marry, their divorce rates are as low as or lower than the divorce rates of straight people.

    All reputable groups of child-development experts in this country SUPPORT gay marriage, because they recognize that children grow up just fine in gay-led households.

    Hundreds of thousands of gay couples in this country are already raising children.

    Why are gay-led families absurd?

  • Doc1895 Chassell, MA
    June 20, 2013 10:01 a.m.

    One of the extraordinary measures of social regression that we have seen in this country has been the insistence that the interests of the LGBT community be interjected into every aspect of American life, including the disregard of fundamental moral ordnances. The Christian Bible clearly defines homosexuality as perverse behavior and is condemned by God. That doesn't mean the homosexual is not loved as a person, but their continual unrepentant behavior is unacceptable. Everyone deserves full equality. But, the so-called LGBT community already has full equality, not just partial equality. The LGBT community is no longer seeking tolerance, but instead seeking acquiescence to the notion that their lifestyle is every bit as healthy as the traditional American family. Of course, this is simply absurd!

  • Contrarius Lebanon, TN
    June 19, 2013 9:32 a.m.

    For Sharrona --

    Here's an additional quote specifically from the Catholic perspective on supersessionism for your edification, from a site originating at Princeton. Emphases once again mine:

    "the Catholic Church does officially teach that the Mosaic covenant was fulfilled and replaced by the New Covenant in Christ. [....]The Church’s teaching regarding the fulfillment and replacement of the Mosaic Covenant by the New Covenant in Christ can be found in the Scriptures, the Fathers and various Magisterial documents: Pope Pius XII, in the encyclical Mystici corporis (1943) states: 'By the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished;'[....]While acting as prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Pope Benedict XVI wrote: 'God, according to the Prophet, will replace the broken Sinai covenant with a New Covenant that cannot be broken . . . . The conditional covenant, which depended on man’s faithful observance of the Law, is replaced by the unconditional covenant in which God binds himself irrevocably.' "

    I'll repeat: Mormonism is apparently way outside the Christian mainstream on this one.

    Are you ready to stone those adulterous divorcees?

  • Contrarius Lebanon, TN
    June 19, 2013 9:12 a.m.

    @sharrona --

    "which ENDED or set aside SOME OR ALL of the Old Covenant.” .... Wrong,"

    Read my statements again, Sharrona. That first one clearly states "SOME OR ALL". As I already demonstrated, some theological systems throw out all of the Old Testament, others hang onto parts of it -- like the Ten Commandments. Your quotes haven't contradicted a single thing I said.

    If you don't believe in supersessionism, fulfillment theology, replacement theology, New Covenant theology, or dispensationalism, that's your prerogative -- but the vast majority of Christians do believe in some form of at least one of them.

     Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matthew 22:37-40)

    "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other." (Galatians 5:14-15)

  • sharrona layton, UT
    June 19, 2013 8:38 a.m.

    RE: Contrarius,”The PREDOMINANT CHRISTIAN VIEW is that Jesus mediates a New Covenant relationship between God and his followers, according to the New Testament, which ENDED or set aside SOME OR ALL of the Old Covenant.” .... Wrong,

    The Catholic Church states: The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: 'The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord ... the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.'"

    Jesus in Mt 5:17-19 teaches that all OT laws (Moral)are still in force but, not the Ceremonial Law, The ceremonial laws are called hukkim or chuqqah in Hebrew, which literally means “custom of the nation”.

  • Contrarius Lebanon, TN
    June 19, 2013 7:37 a.m.

    @dlw7 --

    "I'm not sure whether they are your thoughts or someone who you have read from."

    Supersessionism, fulfillment theology, replacement theology, New Covenant theology, and dispensationalism are all well known theological terms. If you'd like to know more about them, look em up.

    From what you are sharrona are saying, it appears that Mormonism may be well outside the Christian mainstream on this issue. I'll just repeat one small excerpt from what I posted previously:

    "The PREDOMINANT CHRISTIAN VIEW is that Jesus mediates a New Covenant relationship between God and his followers, according to the New Testament, which ENDED or set aside SOME OR ALL of the Old Covenant. .... "

    "dlw7: "We, as Christians, cannot pick and chose the things we believe in. "

    Then you should be happy to stone anyone who divorces and remarries. Such people are adulterers according to the Bible, and adulterers deserve death.

    You should be happy to marry your brother's wife when your brother dies.

    You should never ever eat shrimp.

    Right?

    The fact is, people "pick and choose" from the Bible all the time.

  • The Deuce Livermore, CA
    June 18, 2013 12:28 p.m.

    To: GK Willington, Salt Lake City, UT - you stated the following: "supernatural mumbo jumbo??" Do you really want to take the bet that there isn't some supernatural mumbo humbo?

  • dlw7 LOGAN, UT
    June 18, 2013 11:39 a.m.

    @amazondoc; It is interesting how you take scriptures, recognized by Christian churches as "the word of God" and apply man's theories and interpretations to them. I'm not sure whether they are your thoughts or someone who you have read from. We, as Christians, cannot pick and chose the things we believe in. We accept the scriptures as God's dealings with his people during different time frames. Truly, Christ did set a higher law for us...to love as He loved.... unconditionally. That does not mean we should have to accept man's interpretation of those laws

  • amazondoc USA, TN
    June 18, 2013 9:30 a.m.

    @sharrona --

    "O.T. laws were replaced by the New Covenant, Wrong."

    The LDS church may reject supersessionism -- but most Christian theology disagrees with you.

    For brevity, here's a few excerptsa from various wikipedia pages -- emphases mine:

    "The PREDOMINANT CHRISTIAN VIEW is that Jesus mediates a New Covenant relationship between God and his followers, according to the New Testament, which ENDED or set aside SOME OR ALL of the Old Covenant. .... "

    "...MOST Christian theology reflects the view that at least some Mosaic laws have been set aside under the New Covenant, (and) there are some theology systems that view the ENTIRE Mosaic or Old Covenant as abrogated in that ALL of the Mosaic laws are set aside for the Law of Christ."

    "Supersessionism, fulfillment theology, and replacement theology are terms for the biblical interpretation that the New Covenant SUPERSEDES OR REPLACES the ...Old Covenant....the view they cover is considered part of MOST TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VIEWS of the Old Covenant..."

    "New Covenant Theology sees ALL Old Covenant laws as "cancelled" or "abrogated" in favor of the Law of Christ or the New Testament."

    "Traditional dispensationalists believe ONLY the New Testament applies to the church of today. ... "

  • amazondoc USA, TN
    June 17, 2013 6:12 p.m.

    @dlw7 --

    "So, I think we "agree to disagree", at least on this subject"

    And that's fine. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions.

    Just keep in mind that *many* religious people disagree with you.

    Many Christian (and also Jewish) denominations are already happy to perform gay church marriages.

    Many gay people are deeply religious.

    Many openly gay people are preachers/priests/pastors, some even Bishops, and some serve in other church functions.

    More than 50% of the American population now supports gay marriage, according to several national polls.

    So even though *you* may think that homosexuality is "unacceptable to God", many many other people disagree with you.

    -----

    Oh, also: Zoar was sort of kvetching the other day about me using a quote from Paul in regards to the Commandments -- so here's a different one to replace it:

    "Jesus replied: '"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: "Love your neighbor as yourself." All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)

  • sharrona layton, UT
    June 17, 2013 5:58 p.m.

    @amazondoc1. O.T. laws were replaced by the New Covenant, Wrong.

    Jesus teaches in Mt 5:17-19 that all OT laws are still in force. Jesus didn't do away with any of God's laws. Rather, he emphasized that we ought to obey God not only in our actions, but also in our hearts. We have to keep every OT law in the spirit, in its attitude and purpose. God's laws are written in our hearts and minds (Heb. 8:10).

    Romans 3:20, 31; 7:12,14, Once we recognize that some OT laws, although still valid in purpose, are obsolete in the letter of the law.

    RE: plainbrownwrapper, simplicity of the people who were living at that time.

    Not God ,Psalm 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you, LORD(Jehovah) know it completely. 1 John 3:20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

    Creation Ex Nihlio In (2Tim 1:9 & Titus 1:2)God existed before time, implying he created time. …And (Romans 4:17 NIV )God who gives life to the dead and Calls into Being things that were not.

  • dlw7 LOGAN, UT
    June 17, 2013 5:38 p.m.

    amazondoc; You seem to know the scriptures but your understanding is greatly lacking. But then, that is my opinion (to which I am entitled) and does not have to agree with yours. So, I think we "agree to disagree", at least on this subject

  • amazondoc USA, TN
    June 17, 2013 5:14 p.m.

    @dlw7 --

    "You can not assume to throw out the Old Testament..."

    I don't have to "assume" anything.

    "...the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises." (Hebrews 8:6)

    "By calling this covenant 'new,' he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."(Hebrews 8:13)

    "...Christ is the mediator of a new covenant...he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." (Hebrews 9:15)

    "to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel." (Hebrews 12:24)

    And:

    "The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not covet,' and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

    "Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

    Romans 13: 8-10

  • dlw7 LOGAN, UT
    June 17, 2013 3:13 p.m.

    amazondoc/Kalinda; In the article it specifically mention several general religions, most of who accept the Bible as the basis of their doctrine. Hence, my statement. You can not assume to throw out the Old Testament as being fulfilled. What do we do about the 10 commandments...out the window with the statements about homosexuality? It does no good to argue about this. The old saying "Convince a man against his will, he's of the same opinion still" is so true in dealing with this subject. I have friends and relatives to are of the homosexual persuasion. I have them and appreciate them and interact with them, but I do NOT share their beliefs.

  • amazondoc USA, TN
    June 17, 2013 11:01 a.m.

    @dlw7 --

    "The Old and New Testaments...are VERY explicit about homosexuality and God's views on the subject."

    We've had lots of Bible-related discussions here in the DN comments section. Here's what they boil down to:

    1. Old Testament laws were replaced by the New Covenant.
    2. Jesus never said a word against homosexuality.
    3. Homosexuality isn't mentioned anywhere in the Gospels, except for one passage in which Jesus acknowledges -- WITHOUT condemnation -- that some men are "born eunuchs" (in ancient texts, the term "eunuch" included homosexuals) and that such men should not marry women. (Matthew 19:12)
    4. Paul didn't like homosexuals. Paul also supported slavery, believed that women were inferior to men, and told everyone that nobody should ever get divorced. He was a mortal, fallible man. Paul was the ONLY person in the New Testament who spoke against homosexuality.
    5. Many religious people -- including Christians, Jews, and members of other faiths -- support gay rights. They have no trouble reconciling the text of the Bible with the full citizenship of gay people.
    6. Even if God DOES consider homosexuality a sin, it isn't our job to judge. Judging is GOD'S job.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    June 17, 2013 10:59 a.m.

    @ dlw7: " The Old and New Testaments which are accepted by almost all organized churches are VERY explicit about homosexuality and God's views on the subject."

    To be correct, your comment should specify "Christian organized churches".

    To be even more correct, your comment should state that "Christian organized churches accept some version of the Old and New Testaments, some of which are very explicit about homosexuality and some of which are more open to interpretation on the subject."

    Many religions do not believe either the Old nor the New Testaments - the dictates of your belief system are not the dictates of their belief system.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    June 17, 2013 10:33 a.m.

    @Cats
    "Name calling is used to try to shame others when one has no good counter arguments."

    Says the person who is trying to shame others by judging others as opposing God...

  • USAlover Salt Lake City, UT
    June 17, 2013 10:04 a.m.

    God is more merciful than we are ready to believe

  • dlw7 LOGAN, UT
    June 17, 2013 10:03 a.m.

    No fooling??? The Old and New Testaments which are accepted by almost all organized churches are VERY explicit about homosexuality and God's views on the subject. Man can change things around to accept man's belief, but what is unacceptable to God then, is unacceptable to God now!!!

  • DanO Mission Viejo, CA
    June 17, 2013 9:32 a.m.

    Cats, dear. Please point out where Ranch resorted to name-calling. It didn't happen. If you took offense to what Ranch said, than maybe it's because it's hitting too close to home.

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    June 17, 2013 9:09 a.m.

    CB: "The sin lies in the behavior, not the orientation... Heterosexuals, who do not marry, live under the same commandments."

    The problem is the game is rigged. Straight couples have the option to get married, which gives them the opportunity to engage in behaviors that previously would have been taboo. Same-sex couples do not have that option. They can never get that legal pass that makes their behavior OK. Straights and gays may live under the same commandments, but they don't play by the same rules.

    In the print edition of this paper, this article was juxtaposed on the page opposite an article on suicide. Is it any wonder that GLBT people have higher suicide rates when the religious institutions that are supposed to provide meaning and comfort in life instead foster attitudes that cause rejection, even by family members?

  • Vince here San Diego, CA
    June 17, 2013 8:05 a.m.

    "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8

    So for for those citing the often-repeated justification of "hate the sin, love the sinner" - please learn to quote scripture.

    The quote ""hate the sin, love the sinner" is nowhere in the Bible. Look it up. Not there.

    You are making doctrine and using it as a justification to imply that what, heterosexuals are better?

    Stop it.

    "For all of us are sinners and come short of the Glory of God" Rom 3:23

    However, the issue at hand is not to define sin on the grounds of constitutional law.

    Imagine you go to get a marriage license, and the clerk tells you "You have sinned, you cannot get married."

    So let's get off this issue of sin - used to demean people -

  • MJF Somewhere in Time, UT
    June 17, 2013 7:38 a.m.

    Bebybe: Wow! You did a great job of misinterpreting and mischaracterizing the scriptures. Denial is NOT a river in Egypt.

  • The Dixie Kid Saint George, UT
    June 17, 2013 6:22 a.m.

    @ JD
    This is nothing like Blacks and the priesthood. The LDS Church's doctrine on immorality will not change.

  • Cats Somewhere in Time, UT
    June 17, 2013 6:16 a.m.

    Dear Ranch: Name calling is used to try to shame others when one has no good counter arguments. Your argument isn't with religion or with religious people. It is with God. No one likes to be told that their choices are in violation of God's laws. It's always much easier to live in denial and resort to name calling.

    I feel sorry for the struggles of others. I really respect those who struggle with SSA, but choose to live the law of chastity.

  • Mainly Me Werribee, 00
    June 17, 2013 3:25 a.m.

    Heavenly Father loves the sinner, not the sin. However, since God is the same yesterday, today and forever, that means he doesn't change. If homosexuality was wrong in the Old and New Testaments, why would he change his mind today. Is he going to say, "Opps, I made a mistake in destroying Sodom and Gomorrah?"

    Nope.

  • cavetroll SANDY, UT
    June 16, 2013 10:38 p.m.

    @someone Pinch Me

    You obviously misunderstand the difference btween "religious affiliation" and being religious. Just because a person does not have a religious affiliation does not mean they cannot be religious.

    @zoar

    "Which parts of the bible are the word of God and which parts are not?"
    None of the Bible is God's word. The Bible is man's interpretation of God's word. Just like the Quran, the Torah, and the Book of Mormon.

    @banderson

    "Isn't it interesting how knowledge that was once self-evident (marriage is between a man and a women) is lost when people make choices that conflict with God's word?"
    Do you mean like when the LDS Church believed polygamy was "ordained by God"? Or when Abraham had many concubines?

  • Bebyebe UUU, UT
    June 16, 2013 10:24 p.m.

    "God will judge all people by the *law that he gave. The authority to judge belongs to God alone. "

    Not you. So all you judging gays are usurping authority from God.

  • plainbrownwrapper Nashville, TN
    June 16, 2013 10:10 p.m.

    @sharrona --

    "Jesus warns us not to assume God's prerogative to condemn the guilty"

    That's exactly what I've been saying all along. Thanks for confirming it. :-)

    As I've been saying: it is NOT your (general "you") job to judge. That's God's job.

    "The authority to judge belongs to God alone"

    That's exactly what I've been saying. Thanks again for confirming it. :-)

    "Honor your Father and Mother”[not significant Other],which is the first commandment..."

    Sure. Remember, the people of that time didn't have any sort of reproductive technology, nor even much in the way of adoptions. The commandment was congruent with the technological simplicity of the people who were living at that time.

    Similarly, the Bible never mentions airplanes. Guess why. Does that make airplanes evil? Nope.

    @J.D. --

    "I feel it is only a matter of time before the church view on this issue changes. Like blacks in the priesthood new revelation will soon be given."

    I suspect you're right.

    I am usually impressed with the political savvy of LDS leadership. As the tide continues to turn against them, I expect to eventually hear about a new revelation concerning gays.

  • bandersen Saint George, UT
    June 16, 2013 7:37 p.m.

    Isn't it interesting how knowledge that was once self-evident (marriage is between a man and a women) is lost when people make choices that conflict with God's word? Fortunately, there will be enough continuing to search and ponder His word that the self-evident truths will not be lost.

  • VAggie Bristow, United States
    June 16, 2013 7:25 p.m.

    Much of the conflicts could be avoided if people listened to each other instead of basing everything off false perceptions of each other

  • sharrona layton, UT
    June 16, 2013 7:19 p.m.

    To: plainbrownwrapper,

    RE: God Judge not, that ye be not judged." Matthew 7:1. Many people have ripped this passage out of context, however. Jesus warns us not to assume God's prerogative to condemn the guilty; he is not warning us not to discern truth from error (see 7:15-23).

    @James 4:12…God will judge all people by the *law that he gave. The authority to judge belongs to God alone. God is the Lord of life and death. He alone is able to save life or to destroy it.

    @Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans 13: 8-10.

    You like to quote Paul,OK Ephesians 6:2,3. Honor your Father and Mother”[not significant Other],which is the first commandment=(law*) with a promise. God distinguishes father and mother from all other persons on earth, chooses them and sets them next to Himself, occupying the highest place in our lives next to God.

  • J.D. Aurora, CO
    June 16, 2013 6:19 p.m.

    I feel it is only a matter of time before the church view on this issue changes. Like blacks in the priesthood new revelation will soon be given.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    June 16, 2013 4:47 p.m.

    @Cats;

    I always think its so sad when I see people who know the difference between right and wrong (bigotry is WRONG) who THINK they know what "god" would have them do. Its quite discouraging really.

  • plainbrownwrapper Nashville, TN
    June 16, 2013 4:46 p.m.

    @zoar --

    "You have in the past said though that what Paul wrote is his own opinion. Does that also apply to Chapter 13 or is it just chapter one? "

    Hey, YOU are the guys who want us to believe everything Paul said. I'm just quoting the guy. ;-)

    Paul was a mortal man, and very fallible. If you become willing to admit that fact, then I'll be very happy. :-)

    "Which parts of the bible are the word of God and which parts are not?"

    According to you (general "you" here -- the folks who keep arguing against homosexuality), ALL of them are.

    Of course, y'all still ignore the parts you don't like -- like the support for slavery, or the insistence that women are inferior to men, or the parts commanding you to NOT get divorced, or all the "patriarchs" who committed incest, and so on..... ;-)

    "Are we to accept ideas and concepts from the Bible that make us feel comfortable and ignore those which make us feel uncomfortable?"

    You tell me. How do YOU feel about slavery, or the status of women, or about people who get divorced, or incest?

  • MapleDon Springville, UT
    June 16, 2013 3:50 p.m.

    Interesting and expected statistics. Of course those whose behavior doesn't fit the teachings (Bible, etc.) are going to go elsewhere. We have gay friends who are very active and happy in their non-evangelical Christian churches.

    "The [LDS] church has also supported local ordinances banning employment and housing discrimination based on sexual orientation." True. And perhaps the Church could explain why it requires the rest of us to obey such ordinances when they don't. Isn't that hypocrisy? Shouldn't they set the example of non-discrimination, or was this just another PR stunt?

    The PR efforts by the LDS Church to reach out to the gay community have been interesting to watch. It's quite obvious that the Church wants to be viewed as the good guy to the outside world. Within, however, the finger of shame is frequently wagged from the highest pulpits and pointed at the lay for not keeping any and all commandments. Again, it has been interesting to watch.

  • Cats Somewhere in Time, UT
    June 16, 2013 3:44 p.m.

    I always think it's so sad when I see people who know the difference between right and wrong until it effects a member of their own family. Then it's different.

  • zoar63 Mesa, AZ
    June 16, 2013 3:40 p.m.

    @plainbrownwrapper

    The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and WHATEVER OTHER COMMAND THERE MAY BE, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

    Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

    Romans 13: 8-10"

    What about the first chapter of Romans. It is by the same person as Romans 13. You have in the past said though that what Paul wrote is his own opinion. Does that also apply to Chapter 13 or is it just chapter one? Which parts of the bible are the word of God and which parts are not? Are we to accept ideas and concepts from the Bible that make us feel comfortable and ignore those which make us feel uncomfortable?

  • plainbrownwrapper Nashville, TN
    June 16, 2013 1:35 p.m.

    @CB --

    "If a person knowing the commandments given by God"

    Sorry, but there is no commandment that says "thou shalt not be homosexual".

    Married gay people aren't breaking **any** of the commandments, since they aren't even having sex outside of marriage.

    Nonetheless, some religious people would deny gays the *ability* to marry. How does that make any sense? Gay people get criticized for having sex outside of marriage -- yet they aren't allowed to get married so they can have sex INSIDE of marriage? Hypocrisy, much?

    "Either orientation, who are religiously active, will find the same feelings of guilt and rejection among their peers"

    That's a load of malarkey.

    One simple example: single straight men are allowed to be Scoutleaders in the BSA, and nobody ever asks them whether or not they are celibate. Yet any honestly gay man who applies to be a BSA leader is automatically assumed to be sexually active and therefore "sinning". Big time double standard.

  • BCA Murrieta, CA
    June 16, 2013 12:35 p.m.

    As the father of a gay son and having lived seeing firsthand the attitude of the religious about gays, I lay most of the bigotry in the world against gays at the feet of religion. I have listened to so many anti-gay statements from church members before it came out that my son was gay. It honestly doesn't matter the religion. Saying that they are defective and welcoming at the same time, doesn't make you a person that a gay wants to be around. Pretty simple and yet the religious don't seem to understand why gays don't appreciate the kind of "love" they are given.

    How does "Hate Mormonism, love the Mormon" make you feel, especially when combined with: "You need to quit being a Mormon to make it to heaven." "You can come to our church, but don't do or say anything Mormon." "Be careful of how tolerant you are of a Mormon as you may be advancing the cause of Satan." None of these would make a Mormon feel they were loved and yet gays hear similar things directed to them all the time.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    June 16, 2013 11:28 a.m.

    I usually get countermanded for suggesting religion divides us or contradicts itself, but here it is. A sign on a church building, welcoming all including gays. Yet the next church down the road will by no means extend the same courtesy, based on the same playbook. These schisms suggest the obvious: religion is a tool of man, an extension of our innate bias and fear which can be used to justify behaviour that otherwise could not be justified.

  • GK Willington Salt Lake City, UT
    June 16, 2013 10:44 a.m.

    To Someone Pinch Me

    I agree w/ isrred. When you are being honest with yourself and get marginalized for it, why bother with condemnation of the self-righteously shallow who hold on to supernatural mumbo jumbo??

  • CB Salt Lake City, UT
    June 16, 2013 10:30 a.m.

    The sin lies in the behavior, not the orientation. If a person knowing the commandments given
    by God, finding themselves living outside of those boundaries feeling guilty, it is not the
    the religion or religious people that condemn them, but their own conscience.
    Heterosexuals, who do not marry, live under the same commandments. Either orientation, who are
    religiously active, will find the same feelings of guilt and rejection among their peers living
    outside of those commandments. Unfortunately none of us live with the perfect situation, none of us are without our burdens, be it health, sexuality, intelligence, attractiveness, etc. We ultimately become the sum total of the choices that we make, and those choices are best made
    with the Lord as our guide.

  • plainbrownwrapper Nashville, TN
    June 16, 2013 10:19 a.m.

    @Someone Pinch Me --

    "When you live a life in direct contrast with God's word, no further denunciation is needed!"

    Many religious people support gay rights AND gay people. Your personal interpretation of "God's word" isn't necessarily the correct one.

    As for "denunciation" -- remember, it is GOD who should do the judging, not you.

    " Judge not, that ye be not judged." Matthew 7:1

    "There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?" James 4:12

    Your ONLY job is to LOVE your neighbors -- even if you don't agree with them.

    ----------

    "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

    The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and WHATEVER OTHER COMMAND THERE MAY BE, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

    Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

    Romans 13: 8-10

  • Really??? Kearns, UT
    June 16, 2013 8:53 a.m.

    I am very saddened by the final quote in the article. How heart wrenching it is to know that your family will not accept you if they find out about your orientation. One step we need to take is to get rid of the love the sinner, but hate the sin attitude. Nobody needs that mantra hanging over their head every day--all just need to be loved first.

  • isrred South Jordan, UT
    June 16, 2013 8:43 a.m.

    And this surprises you?

    When your innate, God given nature tells you one thing about yourself and religious people in various religions tell you something different about yourself, is it any surprise that a large portion reject the religions that tell them evil things about themselves that they don't believe?

  • Someone Pinch Me WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    June 16, 2013 8:22 a.m.

    When you live a life in direct contrast with God's word, no further denunciation is needed!